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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 02-15-17, 12:17 PM   #1
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The 2017 role of religion in the US, the trump administration, and DVDTalk thread.

Mod note: spun off posts from the main trump thread. Please continue religious discussion here. Pharoh



Now that DeVos is in power, the Christofascists are hoping to reap the benefits of supporting Trump.

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A policy manifesto from an influential conservative group with ties to the Trump administration, including Education Secretary Betsy DeVos, urges dismantling the Education Department and bringing God into American classrooms.

The five-page document produced by the Council for National Policy calls for a “restoration of education in America” that would minimize the federal role, promote religious schools and homeschooling and enshrine “historic Judeo-Christian principles” as a basis for instruction.

Names of the council’s members are closely held. But the Southern Poverty Law Center published a 2014 membership directory showing that Stephen K. Bannon — now chief White House strategist for President Trump — was a member and that Kellyanne Conway — now counselor to the president — served on the council’s executive committee.

DeVos was not listed as a member, but her mother, Elsa Prince Broekhuizen, was named on the council’s board of governors. Her father-in-law, Amway founder Richard DeVos Sr., twice served as president, most recently from 1990 to 1993. And she and her husband have given money to the council as recently as 2007 through their family foundation, according to federal tax records.

The council’s “Education Reform Report” says it is intended to help DeVos and Trump map a path toward change. The proposal to abolish the department dovetails with the longheld views of many Republicans, and President Trump suggested during the 2016 campaign that the agency could be “largely eliminated.” But Trump has given no sign since taking office that he aims to act on that idea, and DeVos embraced the mission of the department when she took office last week.

Still, the council’s views carry weight in the conservative movement. Its hundreds of members are a who’s who of prominent figures on the Christian right, including former lawmakers and leaders in social activism, business and think tanks. Their thrice-yearly meetings are held in undisclosed locations, and every four years GOP presidential candidates show up to address the crowd and seek their favor.


A version of the council’s report, created by an 11-member education committee, was posted on the council's website. Three committee members confirmed its authenticity.

The document proposes demoting the department to a presidential “Advisory Council on Public Education Reform,” a sub-Cabinet-level agency that would serve as a consultant to states. New employees should subscribe to the educational worldview of the Trump administration, it says, “from assistant secretaries to the mailroom.”

It also says states should encourage K-12 public schools to post the Ten Commandments, teach Bible classes and recognize holidays such as Easter and Christmas; promote instruction “from a Judeo-Christian perspective”; and remove “secular-based sex education materials from school facilities.”

It calls for the termination of the Common Core academic standards and an end to the government collection of student data, which has generated concerns among activists on the right and the left.

The goal, it says, is a “gradual, voluntary return at all levels to free-market private schools, church schools and home schools as the normative American practice.”

Think tanks routinely seek to influence new administrations. But the council’s vision would be a dramatic departure for education in America. Nearly 9 in 10 students attend public schools, and the Supreme Court has ruled repeatedly that the First Amendment prohibits public schools from establishing or promoting any particular religion.

The department administers and manages student loans for tens of millions of borrowers, gives K-12 schools billions of dollars a yearto bolster education for children who are poor or have disabilities, and enforces civil rights laws in schools and colleges nationwide.

The department did not immediately respond Wednesday to a request for comment. Daniel Smithwick, chairman of the council’s education committee and president of the Nehemiah Institute, which provides curricular materials and training for Christian schools and home-schooling families, said he did not know whether DeVos had received the document.

Trump, as a candidate, endorsed eliminating the Common Core. But as president he cannot do that on his own because standards are decided by states.

Trump has said nothing since taking office about dismantling or downsizing the department. Rep. Thomas Massie (R-Ky.) this month introduced a one-sentence bill to eliminate the agency by the end of 2018.

DeVos has long advocated for taxpayer-supported vouchers to help parents pay tuition for private and religious schools. Before her confirmation and since taking office Feb. 7 as secretary she has sought to allay concerns about how she would lead the department, though she has also made clear that she is looking for ways to shrink it.

“I can’t tell you today what’s being done that’s unnecessary, but I can guarantee that there are things that the department has been doing that are probably not necessary or important for a federal agency to do,” she told Michael Patrick Shiels, a Michigan radio host, this week. “Really, when it comes down to it, education and the provision of education is really a state and local responsibility to a large extent.”

In Washington, she told career employees last week that they are “professionals” to whom she will listen, and she said she believed that despite disagreements, “we can — and must — come together, find common ground and put the needs of our students first.”

DeVos grew up in the Christian Reformed Church and graduated from Calvin College, which is affiliated with that church. Her support for vouchers appears to be motivated by faith: She once said she believed her education-reform efforts could “advance God’s Kingdom” and lead to “greater Kingdom gain in the long run.”

In light of those comments, Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) asked DeVos before her confirmation to clarify her beliefs about the role of religion in public education.

“My faith is very important to me and informs my work. In education, it teaches me that every child is special and deserves the best we can offer them,” she wrote in response to Franken’s question. “That said, I do not believe in imposing my faith on others and, if confirmed, I will implement the laws as intended by Congress. That includes the provisions about the prohibition against religious instruction in schools.”

E. Ray Moore Jr., a member of the council’s education committee, said he believes Trump’s election shifted the education debate toward the right, away from a focus on how to fix public schools and toward how to create alternatives. And that’s what is needed, Moore said, to strengthen education.

“The system can’t be fixed,” Moore said. “You don’t hear Republicans and free-market people talking about fixing Obamacare. They talk about repeal and replace. We think the same argument should apply to education.”

Moore is the founder of the Exodus Mandate Project, which encourages Christian families to pull their children out of public schools. He said that he was speaking for himself, not the committee, and that he does not know whether DeVos will adopt any of the committee’s ideas.

“My guess is that she’s not going to want to do a lot of it. It may be a bridge too far for her,” Moore said. “But this is what a lot of conservatives would like to see happen.”

Another committee member, Donna Hearne — a former teacher and author who was an education appointee in the Reagan administration — said this is the council’s first foray into education policy. Members were moved to weigh in, she said, out of concern that U.S. schools have fallen behind even as the federal role in education has expanded.

International tests show American students trail peers from other nations, particularly in Asia.

“Many of us are concerned that our high rate of literacy and comprehension and analytical thinking, they’re not there anymore like they used to be,” she said. “That hurts a country that is based on ‘We the people.’ ”

Hearne said council members also worry children aren’t learning right from wrong in school. “There’s a real need for a discussion in America today of what kind of education do we want,” she said, “because what kind of country do we want down the road?”
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Last edited by Pharoh; 02-15-17 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 02-15-17, 12:21 PM   #2
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

Fuck. These. Assholes.
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Old 02-15-17, 12:23 PM   #3
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

Seems like there's no way that education plan is constitutional.
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Old 02-15-17, 12:26 PM   #4
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Seems like there's no way that education plan is constitutional.
Then it's perfect for the Trump Administration.
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Old 02-15-17, 12:28 PM   #5
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Seems like there's no way that education plan is constitutional.
Then the Constitution is ungodly.

Godliness trumps all mortal considerations.

Therefore, shut up.
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Old 02-15-17, 12:35 PM   #6
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

Trump's authority will not be questioned.
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Old 02-15-17, 12:36 PM   #7
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Fuck. These. Assholes.
Didn't you read the article? That's not going to be taught anymore.
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Old 02-15-17, 12:49 PM   #8
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Seems like there's no way that education plan is constitutional.
I just find it puzzling how people think that if they teach Christianity in schools that suddenly Math, Literacy, History, Science, etc. scores are going to go up.

Can a Christian who wants this to happen please explain this to me?

I find this quote from that article highly amusing coming from these people:

“Many of us are concerned that our high rate of literacy and comprehension and analytical thinking, they’re not there anymore like they used to be,” she said. “That hurts a country that is based on ‘We the people.’ ”
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Old 02-15-17, 12:57 PM   #9
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Then the Constitution is ungodly.

Godliness trumps all mortal considerations.

Therefore, shut up.
I remember in 7th grade we were required to pass a Constitution test to go to 8th grade. My teacher rewarded the top scores with a McDonald's lunch.

This will now be replaced with a Bible test and rewarded with a crucifix.

Because knowledge of the Constitution is now becoming passe.
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Old 02-15-17, 01:08 PM   #10
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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I just find it puzzling how people think that if they teach Christianity in schools that suddenly Math, Literacy, History, Science, etc. scores are going to go up.
Why would there be a need to teach science? Every science is covered in the bible, from biology to geology.
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Old 02-15-17, 01:12 PM   #11
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Can a Christian who wants this to happen please explain this to me
Don't look at me.

That wishlist is a joke. If this is how theyre trying to spread the Gospel, it is pathetic. If this is how they're trying to protect or assert themselves, it isn't the Gospel.

...In my humble opinion.
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Old 02-15-17, 01:18 PM   #12
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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I remember in 7th grade we were required to pass a Constitution test to go to 8th grade. My teacher rewarded the top scores with a McDonald's lunch.

This will now be replaced with a Bible test and rewarded with a crucifix.

Because knowledge of the Constitution is now becoming passe.
Don't forget the gay kids - they'll have to go through the Mike Pence Reprogramming Program™
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Old 02-15-17, 01:22 PM   #13
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Don't forget the gay kids - they'll have to go through the Mike Pence Reprogramming Program™
Yep, they need to teach all the kids at a young age that gay is bad, to help replace all the bigots that are dying of old age.
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Old 02-15-17, 01:35 PM   #14
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Didn't you read the article? That's not going to be taught anymore.
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Old 02-15-17, 01:35 PM   #15
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Don't forget the gay kids - they'll have to go through the Mike Pence Reprogramming Program™
Good, everyone knows that not curing 'The Gay' can lead to pedophelia and beastiality.
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Old 02-15-17, 01:38 PM   #16
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Originally Posted by cungar View Post
I remember in 7th grade we were required to pass a Constitution test to go to 8th grade. My teacher rewarded the top scores with a McDonald's lunch.

This will now be replaced with a Bible test and rewarded with a crucifix.

Because knowledge of the Constitution is now becoming passe.
At least the kids will get Chick-fil-A for passing
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Old 02-15-17, 01:39 PM   #17
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Mike Pence Reprogramming Program™
Ben Carson should try to have this put in every prison.
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Old 02-15-17, 02:07 PM   #18
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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“Many of us are concerned that our high rate of literacy and comprehension and analytical thinking, they’re not there anymore like they used to be,” she said.
As is on full display whenever the President of the US opens his mouth. Trump's comments are inarguably the dumbest thing I will hear on any given day. The Russia scandal, okay that could be big, but am I the only one who is most troubled by just how awful a role model Trump is, in any context you could possibly measure such a thing? He is dumb, boorish, disloyal, a liar, lacks intellectual curiosity, lacks self-awareness, and is constantly combative and insulting. To the extent that "tone at the top" is an important organizational governance concept, he is by far the worst example we've ever seen. How can you convince students to be better, when an average 7th grader's peers appear more intelligent than the most powerful person on Earth?
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Old 02-15-17, 02:13 PM   #19
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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At least the kids will get Chick-fil-A for passing
Damn that was the punch line I should've used
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Old 02-15-17, 02:17 PM   #20
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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As is on full display whenever the President of the US opens his mouth. Trump's comments are inarguably the dumbest thing I will hear on any given day. The Russia scandal, okay that could be big, but am I the only one who is most troubled by just how awful a role model Trump is, in any context you could possibly measure such a thing? He is dumb, boorish, disloyal, a liar, lacks intellectual curiosity, lacks self-awareness, and is constantly combative and insulting. To the extent that "tone at the top" is an important organizational governance concept, he is by far the worst example we've ever seen. How can you convince students to be better, when an average 7th grader's peers appear more intelligent than the most powerful person on Earth?
I tried to make that point when he was elected. Going to be hard to teach boys not to sexually assault women when the President gets elected because it was just "locker room talk".

But who gives a shit, right? Hillary had emails.
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Old 02-15-17, 03:28 PM   #21
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Can a Christian who wants this to happen please explain this to me?
Excuse me, Spider, but weren't you the person who said that you were putting various conservative Christians on "ignore?"

That's sort of like the person who takes his phone off the hook and then complains that no one ever calls.

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Old 02-15-17, 04:12 PM   #22
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Excuse me, Spider, but weren't you the person who said that you were putting various conservative Christians on "ignore?"

That's sort of like the person who takes his phone off the hook and then complains that no one ever calls.
Haha. "Various conservative Christians on 'ignore'" = just you!

I actually just took you off ignore today which is odd you quoted me (though you may have quote me before and I didn't see it b/c of ignore).

I have never had anyone else on ignore here except you and JoshHinkle (damn...I hated that guy). I took you off today because it appeared you stopped with the obnoxious bible verses after every post. If you want me to put you back on ignore, then start throwing those back up there. I am not a fan of religious advertisements on every post.

But do what you like. And...now...waiting for your answer to my question kind sir...
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Old 02-15-17, 04:33 PM   #23
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Haha. "Various conservative Christians on 'ignore'" = just you!

I actually just took you off ignore today which is odd you quoted me (though you may have quote me before and I didn't see it b/c of ignore).

I have never had anyone else on ignore here except you and JoshHinkle (damn...I hated that guy). I took you off today because it appeared you stopped with the obnoxious bible verses after every post. If you want me to put you back on ignore, then start throwing those back up there. I am not a fan of religious advertisements on every post.

But do what you like. And...now...waiting for your answer to my question kind sir...
Hmmm.

Before I answer and point out that the Christian schools with which I am acquainted offer a classical education with rigorous requirements in all disciplines, may I point out that (ironically) I had just today started to include my Bible quotes. They take extra time to select and slow down the posting, but I enjoy doing that.

May I point out that it doesn't appear that anyone has any problem with people including anti-religious quotes, posting anti-religious posts which have absolutely nothing to do with the topics, or even have adopted blasphemous online names ("King of the Jews") while constantly, obsessively posting anti-religious messages...yet those "advertisements" don't seem troubling.

I find it rather odd that Christians can "endure" such blatant, overt anti-religious messages without complaint, yet the posting of Bible quotes is found to be like holy water to a vampire by those with extreme antipathy toward religion.

But I can promise you this. Although I stopped posting Bible quotes temporarily specifically to avoid infuriating the easily-offended and censorship-minded, any future posting of Bible quotes won't be predicated upon anyone else's approval or disapproval. I made it extremely easy to avoid reading them by relegating them to the bottom of posts, separated by a large space & italicized. That didn't suit critics, so I removed the space & the italics (which only made them harder to ignore). Then I removed them entirely...and guess what? The anti-religious posts didn't let up one bit...if anything, they have increased.

People here routinely post outright lies, profane insults toward members, blasphemous comments, nonsense & trolling comments, etc. But the one thing that sets you off is Bible quotations?

Now...before any Bible quotes resume, exactly what educational proposals do you find objectionable?

I'm teaching a Sunday School class on Calvin and Culture which demonstrates the influence which Reformed theology has had on art, science, literature, medicine, economics, law, business, music, political science, government and other disciplines. Perhaps instead of railing against religion, those who owe a huge dept for their freedoms to systematic theology and use of logic & reason might want to investigate history.
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Old 02-15-17, 04:49 PM   #24
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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I made it extremely easy to avoid reading them by relegating them to the bottom of posts, separated by a large space & italicized. That didn't suit critics, so I removed the space & the italics (which only made them harder to ignore). Then I removed them entirely...
That's a very interesting interpretation of how that played out.
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Old 02-15-17, 04:49 PM   #25
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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That's a very interesting interpretation of how that played out.
The truth is always interesting, Dan.

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