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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 02-15-17, 07:17 PM   #51
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Originally Posted by Why So Blu? View Post
I'll let that slide, because it reminds me of Game of Thrones.
I thought that's what it was too.
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Old 02-15-17, 07:18 PM   #52
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
I am a Christian and I also don't want it to happen.

I think the reason this is more of a thing now, as opposed to the past, is that there's a growing contingent of Christians (evangelicals, I suppose) that are getting more and more insecure with their faith (mostly due to the changing and shrinking world around them), and want to impose their worldview on others, mostly because they're frightened that this changing world around them might change their world as well.
You nailed it! But the insecurity in their faith is rooted in the fact that it was never tested. The US is the easiest place on earth to be a Christian. The Christian privilege that we experienced is eroding and Christianity is becoming just one among other religions... and those God and Country prosperity evangelicals don't like it.
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Old 02-15-17, 08:10 PM   #53
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
No, that's not it.

Since God is the source of truth and all things, it makes perfect sense to include God as the foundation for learning.

Also, it gives a purpose for learning, just as it gives purpose to life.

In him was life, and the life was the light of men. John 1:4
Okay, so every Christian, theologian, pastor, priest, etc who came before you that was okay with separation of church and public institutions had it wrong, but you, YOU understand what they don't, and feel like you need to impose your beliefs on others inside the same public institution, even when there's many private ones that cater to you.
Got it.

That's not insecure at all...
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Old 02-15-17, 08:48 PM   #54
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Re: The 2017 role of religion in the US, the trump administration, and DVDTalk thread

Christofascist really is an apt label for evangelical Christians.
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Old 02-15-17, 08:51 PM   #55
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
Okay, so every Christian, theologian, pastor, priest, etc who came before you that was okay with separation of church and public institutions had it wrong, but you, YOU understand what they don't, and feel like you need to impose your beliefs on others inside the same public institution, even when there's many private ones that cater to you.
Got it.

That's not insecure at all...
Sigh.

Many of the posts here are a good indication of the quite a few basic facts that have been missed by some parts of our education system.

It's hard to know where to begin when, out of the blue, someone just starts posting, "Spaghetti is a really good dish, but you...YOU~!...think you know better than pasta lovers!" It's sort of charming in its innocence, but it's a bit bizarre on the surface, don't you think?

Brief lesson. John Calvin (Jean Calvin) had a great influence on the Reformation and Reformed theology, as you well know. Also, as you obviously know, Calvin was a great proponent of separation of church & state re: powers & duties. The church was in charge of spiritual matters & morals for society; the state was charged with enforcing those morals. They were to work together to promote a just, moral society, but neither was to usurp the powers delegated to the other. This was in reaction to the papal state and centralized power in the church.

Being a good Presbyterian, I strongly believe that the church has a different role from the civil magistrate and that citizens cannot be forced to adopt particular religious doctrines of specific faiths. And the state cannot impose its will upon the church to tell the church what it must teach.

Sadly, slop, you don't "got it." The law of citations, alas, keeps catching up to hound those who toss around scurrilous accusations. Don't listen to hearsay, man! Go to the evidence before reaching mistaken conclusions about what you think others believe. It'll lower your blood pressure and save you a ton of apologies.

Now, surely you find it amusing when secular posters appeal to "morality," "doing what is right," "the truth," etc. as though there is an absolute truth and morality to which all should be forced to adhere (even if they do not share those beliefs). So tell me this, slop, after a calming cup of hot, green tea...why is it okay for people to vote according to their own sense of what is "moral" based upon their own opinions but not okay for people to vote according to what their own reason supported by theology informs them?

In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes. Judges 17:6
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Old 02-15-17, 08:54 PM   #56
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Re: The 2017 role of religion in the US, the trump administration, and DVDTalk thread

For additional reading, slop (and any other open-minded individuals):

January Series 2009: Church and state in Calvinist Geneva January 8, 2009

John CalvinLaw and liberty. Church and state. These are the things held in a constant balancing act in John Calvin’s Geneva, said John Witte, Jr. in his lecture that opened the 22nd -annual January Series this week.

Calvin, born 500 years ago this July, defined the relationship between law and liberty and church and state in his many writings. Though his ideas later influenced the founding fathers as they wrote the Constitution of the United States, Calvin’s vision for the separation of church and state as seen in sixteenth-century Geneva was different from how we conceive the separation in the United States today, said Witte.

Witte dug underneath modern notions of disestablishmentarianism to uncover a vision in which church and state hold different roles in society, but are ultimately interdependent, “fruitfully joined,” in fact, to cooperate for the common good. The church is established to speak the word, deliver the sacraments and give counsel in matters related to family and morality, but has no power to convict criminals or collect taxes. The state, conversely, has laws to establish order in civil society and processes to convict those who disrupt that order, but has no right to exercise power in spiritual matters.

The separation between church and state in John Calvin’s thought, Witte said, is rooted in Calvin’s esteem of human liberty—or rights—that allow each person the freedom to love, worship and obey God first and to live, marry and own property. Calvin was reacting to abuses by the church that long ruled Europe and caused Christians worshiping in Geneva to be overwhelmed by fear. People created in the image of God, Calvin said, ought not to be coerced to serve God or others, but given the freedom to do so at will.

In Geneva, church and state became separate not because they have nothing to do with each other, but to buffer the tendency for those in power to use coercion to enforce morality, said Witte. Still, human freedom is not a free-for-all, a license to do whatever one pleases. There is the law, and as a person studied in the law, John Calvin articulated the merits of using it to cultivate both civil and spiritual righteousness.

For John Calvin, rights should not stand alone.“Calvinist rights talk was never divorced from Calvinist duties talk,” said Witte. In fact, people must hold fast to their duties under God’s law for church and society so as to protect the liberty of others, and to bring glory to God. Rights without duties leads to excess and over-indulgence,while duties without rights may lead to undue feelings of guilt.

John Calvin’s notions of law and liberty created a necessary separation of church and state, but did not build an impassable wall between the two entities. They maintained separate roles in society, but both being based on natural law as revealed by God in the Ten Commandments, they depended on one another to flourish.

Note: John Witte, Jr. is the Jonas Robitscher Professor of Law and Director of the Center for the Study of Law and Religion Center at Emory University.

My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. James 1:2-3
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Old 02-15-17, 08:59 PM   #57
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Re: The 2017 role of religion in the US, the trump administration, and DVDTalk thread

You say you believe in the separation of church and state, but the vast majority of your posting history suggests that is not at all the case.

And Calvin's idea of church and state is not what we practice in this country. It's irrelevant.
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Old 02-15-17, 09:44 PM   #58
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
No, that's not it.

Since God is the source of truth and all things, it makes perfect sense to include God as the foundation for learning.

Also, it gives a purpose for learning, just as it gives purpose to life.

In him was life, and the life was the light of men. John 1:4
So you're saying without god, we have no purpose in life? Perhaps some people strive to live a good life and better themselves by just trying to be good people. One is not dependent on the other.
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Old 02-15-17, 09:51 PM   #59
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Re: The 2017 role of religion in the US, the trump administration, and DVDTalk thread

My purpose in life is to save creek from his religious delusions.
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Old 02-15-17, 10:29 PM   #60
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Re: The 2017 role of religion in the US, the trump administration, and DVDTalk thread

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My purpose in life is to save creek from his religious delusions.
You'd have better luck convincing Christopher Lowell to sleep with a woman.
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Old 02-15-17, 10:46 PM   #61
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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So you're saying without god, we have no purpose in life? Perhaps some people strive to live a good life and better themselves by just trying to be good people. One is not dependent on the other.
We've gone down this road many times. I think it usually ends up with those of who don't believe in god are merely blind to his power or choosing to ignore it or some such nonsense.
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Old 02-15-17, 11:08 PM   #62
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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We've gone down this road many times. I think it usually ends up with those of who don't believe in god are merely blind to his power or choosing to ignore it or some such nonsense.
That's why I stay out of most of the political threads. As I've told you before, I'm one of the seemingly few conservatives on this board and disagree with some of positions people take on here so I don't comment too often.

I will say this however. Most of the people that post here are well intentioned, even if I don't always agree with them, and I doubt god plays much of a part in that. I'd imagine upbringing plays a much larger part.
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Old 02-15-17, 11:12 PM   #63
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Re: The 2017 role of religion in the US, the trump administration, and DVDTalk thread

Also, while I'm not big on organized religion, I'm fine with whatever someone chooses to follow as long as it means they can still respect people that disagree with their beliefs. That goes for agnostics as well. I'd like to believe there is a higher power, but I don't let that drive my choices in life. Every organized religion has examples of both terrific and awful ways of guiding a person how to live.
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Old 02-16-17, 07:48 AM   #64
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Re: The 2017 role of religion in the US, the trump administration, and DVDTalk thread

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Originally Posted by creekdipper
Before I answer and point out that the Christian schools with which I am acquainted offer a classical education with rigorous requirements in all disciplines,
As a counterpoint, Iíll mention my experience with evangelical Christian schools. I attended them for my entire primary education, from pre-K through high school. That was split among three different schools (2 Baptist, 1 non-denominational evangelical), though I was exposed to many others through church, Awana and various competitions and conferences where multiple schools were in attendance. Off the top of my head, hereís a sampling of what I was taught in formal classes:

- The earth was verifiably ~6,000 years old. This overarching lie included a plethora of supporting lies, such as:
- Science had already disproved carbon dating, but this was covered up.
- The fossil record proved dinosaurs and man coexisted (along with every other animal known to exist).
- Simulations had proven beyond any doubt that a worldwide flood would create the earth's strata as they exist.
- Every piece of evidence supporting evolution had been absolutely established as fraudulent to anyone willing to look at thing objectively.

- Men literally have one less rib than women.

- Masturbation has been proven to cause a reduction in IQ.

- Abortion causes sterility in most cases.

- Premarital sex can spontaneously cause STDs even if both people have never had any STDs.

- Scientific studies have proven that rock and roll music causes violent behavior and sexual deviancy.

- Every authentic historical text from Biblical times completely and unequivocally supports the Bibleís account of history.

- All of the founding fathers adhered to the Christian doctrine we were taught and intended that the country formally embrace it. The whole thing about separation of church and state was just to keep the government from perverting Christianity, not to allow other beliefs.

- Generally speaking, all of history was whitewashed to show the Christians as the heroes and persecuted and all evils and oppression stemming from other religions or atheists.

- Scientific studies had definitively proven that thereís no physical cause for homosexuality.

- Scientific studies had definitively proven that homosexual behavior leads to pedophilia.

Thatís just scratching the surface. And this was in the 90's, not the 50's or some other long gone era. Essentially, we were taught that not only did nothing in the sum of human knowledge and experience even give the appearance of disagreeing with the doctrine we were taught, but that it actually supported and proved it. If that meant making up mountains of bullshit whole cloth to feed to gullible, sheltered young minds, so be it. Hell, I had a Bible class in high school that spent a large portion of a semester walking through key miracles from the Bible and explaining how Ďscienceí had either proven how they happened or could have happened. Even being a Christian at the time that one struck me as odd. I never really got how everything supposedly depended on faith, yet was also totally, absolutely provable and supported by everything we know, and anyone who didnít believe it was clearly in denial of reality. As an adult, I see that insecurity in many religious folks and find it both sad and amusing. Anyway, I want to stress, none of the above were taught as opinions or beliefs, but as verifiable facts supported by all known, reliable evidence.

If Christians want to teach their kids all of the above, Iíll support their right to do so, even though I think itís detrimental and parts of it are truly horrible. If they want to try to force that crap on my kids, they can go fuck themselves. I will fight any step in that direction with every legal action I can take.
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Old 02-16-17, 08:12 AM   #65
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Re: The 2017 role of religion in the US, the trump administration, and DVDTalk thread

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If Christians want to teach their kids all of the above, Iíll support their right to do so, even though I think itís detrimental and parts of it are truly horrible. If they want to try to force that crap on my kids, they can go fuck themselves. I will fight any step in that direction with every legal action I can take.
Exactly this.
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Old 02-16-17, 08:33 AM   #66
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Re: The 2017 role of religion in the US, the trump administration, and DVDTalk thread

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If Christians want to teach their kids all of the above, Iíll support their right to do so, even though I think itís detrimental and parts of it are truly horrible. If they want to try to force that crap on my kids, they can go fuck themselves. I will fight any step in that direction with every legal action I can take.
Well said. If the nonsense you posted above makes it into public schools I will fight it.
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Old 02-16-17, 08:41 AM   #67
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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No, that's not it.

Since God is the source of truth and all things, it makes perfect sense to include God as the foundation for learning.

Also, it gives a purpose for learning, just as it gives purpose to life.
Do you have a citation from a scientific journal, or is that all just an opinion?
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Old 02-16-17, 08:44 AM   #68
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Re: The 2017 role of religion in the US, the trump administration, and DVDTalk thread

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Well said. If the nonsense you posted above makes it into public schools I will fight it.
You should fight it making it into any school.
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Old 02-16-17, 08:44 AM   #69
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Do you have a citation from a scientific journal, or is that all just an opinion?
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Old 02-16-17, 08:55 AM   #70
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Do you have a citation from a scientific journal, or is that all just an opinion?
Do you have an actual purpose in your question?

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Old 02-16-17, 09:03 AM   #71
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Re: The 2017 role of religion in the US, the trump administration, and DVDTalk thread

Drama queens......
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Old 02-16-17, 09:06 AM   #72
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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So you're saying without god, we have no purpose in life? Perhaps some people strive to live a good life and better themselves by just trying to be good people. One is not dependent on the other.
And how does one define "good?" Upon whose standards does a society rely?

You cited bad things that have been committed in the name of all organized religions. The same is true for societies ruled by governments banning organized religions...calling those policies "good" things.

As Dostoevsky said, "In the absence of God, all things are possible"...and he wasn't talking about good things.

Also, if we are simply products of evolution and creatures responding to biological programming, then concepts such as "good" and "evil" are simply labels created to describe interactions. Any "moral" judgment attached is meaningless as far as underlying truth; one could just as easily reverse the labels and the meaning would be just as appropriate. When everyone becomes his/her own arbiter of morality, then no one has any actual right to judge the behavior or attitudes of anyone else. It simply becomes a matter of the majority imposing their ideas upon others.

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good. Psalm 14:1
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Old 02-16-17, 09:10 AM   #73
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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Do you have an actual purpose in your question?
Other than to point out you are constantly seeking citations from others while offering none of your own, no.

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Old 02-16-17, 09:14 AM   #74
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Re: The 2017 role of religion in the US, the trump administration, and DVDTalk thread

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Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
Well said. If the nonsense you posted above makes it into public schools I will fight it.
I'll join you.

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You should fight it making it into any school.
Valid point.
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Old 02-16-17, 09:17 AM   #75
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Re: The Offical Trump Presidency Thread: #AlternativeFacts

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I'm not a Christian and I don't want it to happen, but it's an easy answer. Because, god.
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No, that's not it.

Since God is the source of truth and all things, it makes perfect sense to include God as the foundation for learning.
While you're answer is longer than Abob's, it's not actually different. It's just some theological handwaving that makes no sense to anyone who doesn't subscribe to your religion.
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