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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 08-08-17, 06:45 AM   #1126
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Re: Bathrooms - Maybe Texas Learned From The Mistakes Of Others

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Old 08-08-17, 07:02 AM   #1127
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Re: Bathrooms - Maybe Texas Learned From The Mistakes Of Others

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Oh I think the hate "card" is appropriate.
Of course it is. Any time anyone disagrees with our opinions, it has to be motivated by hatred. That's the only possible explanation.

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Old 08-08-17, 07:28 AM   #1128
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Re: Bathrooms - Maybe Texas Learned From The Mistakes Of Others

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Of course it is. Any time anyone disagrees with our opinions, it has to be motivated by hatred. That's the only possible explanation.
Actually there is more than one explaination and I know you know that.

Unless your pulling the "I must be tolerant of his intolerance" arguement

I have said many a time. People can think anything thing they want. But when someone advocates for discrimination and treating people as 2nd class citizens I do feel they have hate in their heart. Im not sure what else could drive someone that way. Well let me qualify a bit and say they are hateful actions.

Besides your factually incorrect as our discussion on healthcare proves. If you go back 7-8 years you will find posts where I was against the ACA and the individual mandate. Heck go back just a couple years and you will find posts that I was against single payer. But people here disagreed with my "opinion". I didn't think for a second tthey were motivated by hate. I didn't hate them, nor do I hate Ape (remember I'm Catholic, I'm not allowed to hate anyone ). The difference is those on the healthcare arguement provided sound, thought provoking, reasonable discussion points. That lend to learning and wanting to learn more. Thus my 180 switch on the topic.

I know very well your anti-abortion stance. I don't hate you for that. Nor do I think (necessarily or automatically) you hate women. As a Catholic I don't believe in abortion either. Nor do I thin Catholics (as a teaching) hate women (tho we certainly could do more for women). Course you and I differ in that I don't think abortions need or should be illigal. I would hope you wouldn't think I was driven by hate.
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Old 08-08-17, 07:42 AM   #1129
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Re: Bathrooms - Maybe Texas Learned From The Mistakes Of Others

And that's exactly my point.

You seem to presume that Ape's posts are motivated by hatred. You don't appear to be allowing him the benefit of a doubt that he is basing his beliefs upon his understanding of the actual physical, biological evidence (vs. some tenuous psychological hypotheses). I don't have to agree with Ape to accept his statements as being motivated by his perception of the evidence.

At the same time, you say that your statements are not motivated by hatred...just as Ape says his aren't. And that's my point. Presumably, you know your own mind and can speak for yourself about your motivations. But how can you presume to speak for what it is Ape's mind and heart based upon your beliefs? Why should someone else not do the same toward you (in other words, why should you be believed and he not)?

That's why I think we should leave out the personal speculation about what others really think and feel out of these discussions and just focus on the facts and our arguments about why certain policies should be adopted.

I don't think that you hate other forum members (I do absolutely think there is a small handful who do, however). But we do have laws that "discriminate" (i.e., prohibit people from certain behaviors and rights allowed to others)...laws that are nearly unanimously-supported. We don't say that support is motivated by "hatred;" instead, we look at the arguments for continuing or abandoning those laws.
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Old 08-08-17, 08:11 AM   #1130
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Re: Bathrooms - Maybe Texas Learned From The Mistakes Of Others

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
And that's exactly my point.

You seem to presume that Ape's posts are motivated by hatred. You don't appear to be allowing him the benefit of a doubt that he is basing his beliefs upon his understanding of the actual physical, biological evidence (vs. some tenuous psychological hypotheses). I don't have to agree with Ape to accept his statements as being motivated by his perception of the evidence.

At the same time, you say that your statements are not motivated by hatred...just as Ape says his aren't. And that's my point. Presumably, you know your own mind and can speak for yourself about your motivations. But how can you presume to speak for what it is Ape's mind and heart based upon your beliefs? Why should someone else not do the same toward you (in other words, why should you be believed and he not)?

That's why I think we should leave out the personal speculation about what others really think and feel out of these discussions and just focus on the facts and our arguments about why certain policies should be adopted.

I don't think that you hate other forum members (I do absolutely think there is a small handful who do, however). But we do have laws that "discriminate" (i.e., prohibit people from certain behaviors and rights allowed to others)...laws that are nearly unanimously-supported. We don't say that support is motivated by "hatred;" instead, we look at the arguments for continuing or abandoning those laws.
Again, I'm not really caring his (or anyone's) "understanding of biology" or whatever. I fully admit to not being a scientist, Dr, psychologist so I would never claim "knowing all the biology". But I think there is something there when people advocate kicking trans people out of the military or ordering them to use a different bathroom. There is no reason for this. We have debunked all the urban myth, unicorn reasons, what is left?

If someone today said "blacks should use a different water fountain" do we not need to get to the motivation behind it? Just how many explainations can there be?

I do like you idea your sticking to the facts. Of course if we do that, there really is no reason a transgender can't use the bathroom they identify with.
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Old 08-08-17, 08:36 AM   #1131
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Re: Bathrooms - Maybe Texas Learned From The Mistakes Of Others

There can be legitimate questions about inclusion of all kinds of different categories of gender, etc. based upon unit cohesion and military effectiveness...just as there are exclusions for certain duties based upon physical or intellectual abilities.

Asking those questions does not mean that the questions are motivated by "hatred." The legitimate pursuit might very well be to promote the most efficient military force possible.

Research may show that fears about negative effects are unfounded. Some might even argue that Constitutional principles demand inclusion regardless of what research shows. At some point, though, realistic approaches may be invoked to justify "discrimination" by limiting the roles a person can have in the military. Outright bans from any type of service would be a totally different story, although I think that codes of conduct can still be invoked to dismiss people from the military based upon off-duty conduct (I might be 100% wrong about this).

Anyway, that's just an example of how the questions can be raised. Years ago we discussed why allowing persons attracted to the same sex into physically intimate (i.e. state of undress/showering, etc.) situations would be akin to allowing opposite (now other, for "non-binary" proponents) genders to mix in those situations. At the time, the arguments in favor of allowing the mix were based upon physical characteristics (i.e, since the "equipment" was the same, there wouldn't be a problem regardless of potential sexual attraction from one side). Now, the argument is that physical characteristics aren't the primary concern...it's the psychological component that matters.

That seems contradictory and suggests that the arguments will shift to fit the different circumstances even if that requires inconsistent applications of principles.
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Old 08-08-17, 11:07 AM   #1132
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Re: Bathrooms - Maybe Texas Learned From The Mistakes Of Others

Oh come on...are you sure you are being honest? There are absolutely good conversations to be had, but when Ape (or anyone) purposely and IMO hurtfully and which can be called "hatefully" can't even have the decency to call a person by who they are...what would you call it?

(I want to clarify what I said by there are good conversations. If u want to have a conversation about medical costs in the military and reducing them, great. But it would need to be about reducing cost that effect everyone, not a single group).

Its why I "made up" the term Christian Extremist. Just to make a point. Which I suppose I didn't do a good job with the point or there is no caring there.

I pretty sure we have had this conversation before...but if I said "oh yes please Mr. Christian Extremist tell me about your unicorn god". What would you think? Do you really think I would be genuine in my desire to have a conversation and have a true discussion?

When it is repeatedly pointed out to someone that continuing to call a trans woman a man, or claiming that "oh you just want men in the women's bathroom" is rude, hurtful and argumentative, do think they are being genuine in their desire to have a discussion?

Yes, I will 100% agree, he brought up the cost of medical care to our trans soldiers. That is a point that is worth discussing. For about 30 seconds. Of course if you take 5 minutes and actually look at the facts it very quickly washes away.

But seriously, think what that very idea is. There are people that support taking away a groups right to protect their country. You brought up history and changes in society. Doesn't that seem just a bit familiar? "Blacks serve with whites?" Some want to kick out of the military those that have served for decades. Think about that.

Now previously when we tried to point out the similarity between discrimination against trans people and blacks he has said "when blacks are naked then it might be similar" (paraphrasing). However soldiers I'm unaware of fighting naked. So now where is the reasoning? Or we just going to keep moving the goal post and if we can find any reason, make one up?

Again, you have brought up history. That a society changes. I could not agree more. Now would you also agree we should learn from history? Learn from our mistakes? Or just blindly repeat them?

Last edited by Sdallnct; 08-10-17 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 08-08-17, 03:17 PM   #1133
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Re: Bathrooms - Maybe Texas Learned From The Mistakes Of Others

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/08/u...room-bill.html

More directly on topic....way to early to celebrate...but it appears the discrimination law in Texas will not come up for a vote. And while fairly unlikely they would try to schedule another special session its not out of the question.

It still boggles my mind that with all serious issues we have in this state, our politicians are wasting time and money on a solution in search of a problem.

http://www.statesman.com/news/state-...yaroTxOOtGu1J/

And here are Texas Women leaders tired of promotions of this dicriminating law "for them".

Last edited by Sdallnct; 08-08-17 at 05:27 PM.
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Old 08-08-17, 03:38 PM   #1134
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Re: Bathrooms - Maybe Texas Learned From The Mistakes Of Others

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Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/08/u...room-bill.html

More directly on topic....way to early to celebrate...but it appears the discrimination law in Texas will not come up for a vote. And while fairly unlikely they would try to schedule another special session its not out of the question.

It still boggles my mind that with all serious issues we have in this state, our politicians are wasting time and money on a solution in search of a problem.
But how will they be able to protect children from a completely non-existent danger!?!?!
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Old 08-09-17, 05:40 PM   #1135
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Re: Bathrooms - Maybe Texas Learned From The Mistakes Of Others

http://time.com/4876984/ray-mabus-pr...y-service-ban/

Well written by the former Secretary of Navy,

Yes, it debunks (again) the "cost issue" that POTUS brought up...

While I'm sure Trump had no idea, it is none the less ironic and that he points out history. Trump made his announcement on the 69th anniversary of Truman ending segregation in the military.

"It is sad and ironic that Trump made this announcement on the 69th anniversary of President Truman ending segregation in the U.S. military. Opponents of Truman’s decision argued it would erode unit cohesion, impact readiness and disrupt the effectiveness of our military. They were wrong. They were wrong in the ‘70s when women were admitted to the Service Academies. They were wrong in the ‘90s when women began serving in combat roles as pilots and aboard ships. They’ve used the same arguments every time, and they’ve been wrong every time. It’s clear that Trump’s real purpose is again to distract from a Russia investigation, which appears to be getting very close and very serious. He did it with the Boy Scouts, and now he’s doing it to our bravest, who are serving in our military protecting our country."

And the sad part? IMO the damage is done. I personally don't think the ban will ever take effect. 1) it hurts our military. 2) There are already lawsuit's with history on their side and 3) there are been zero reports of anyone "in power" that thinks this is a good idea.

However, you have the Commander in Chief thumbing his nose at a group of people who have been serving for decades. You have a POTUS telling others "its ok to judge someone on who they are rather than what they can do".
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Old 08-10-17, 08:44 PM   #1136
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Re: Bathrooms - Maybe Texas Learned From The Mistakes Of Others

http://p2a.co/Y4zDvHK

IBM has taken to FB to encourage people to contact your representative to vote no to the discrimination bill. 10,000 IBM employees in Texas

Last edited by Sdallnct; 08-10-17 at 08:58 PM.
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Old 08-10-17, 08:57 PM   #1137
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Re: Bathrooms - Maybe Texas Learned From The Mistakes Of Others

Well, if you want to vote in a new governor:

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Old 08-10-17, 10:01 PM   #1138
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Re: Bathrooms - Maybe Texas Learned From The Mistakes Of Others

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Well, if you want to vote in a new governor:

https://twitter.com/thorharris666/st...67982089154564
Well...he can speak coherently, so he is over qualified for POTUS
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Old 08-12-17, 03:31 PM   #1139
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Re: Bathrooms - Maybe Texas Learned From The Mistakes Of Others

http://huffp.st/I9QCAp5

What? The military doesn't care who someone is so long as they can get the job done? And considers anyone that serves honorably a Patriat?

Shocking...totally shocking!

And just a note that trans people have always served in the military. Always. There are many trans veterans as well as trans solidiers who died for their country.

The only thing Obama did was saw trans people could openly serve. That's it's. And that's the only reason (the only reason that makes sense) Trumps wants to ban them.

I hope those that support Trump see that. Trump is willing to harm our military readiness and thumb his nose at people that have served with honor because of his hate for Obama.
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Old 08-16-17, 12:52 AM   #1140
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Re: Bathrooms - Maybe Texas Learned From The Mistakes Of Others

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Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
it appears the discrimination law in Texas will not come up for a vote.
http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-o...-early-n793051

Quote:
Texas Transgender Bathroom Bill Dies as House Adjourns a Day Early
AUG 15 2017, 11:59 PM ET

A measure to restrict transgender people's access to bathrooms in schools and other public buildings in Texas died Tuesday night when the state House abruptly adjourned without passing it.

...

The bill was supported by Gov. Greg Abbott and especially by Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick, who charged that "the House quit tonight."

"With 27 hours to go, they walked off the job," he said at a late-night news conference in Austin during which he raised the specter of "sexual predators who would follow women into bathrooms."

"The people of Texas don't want that," he said.

...

The bill's author, Rep. Ron Simmons, a Republican from Carrollton, told The Dallas Morning News on Tuesday night, meanwhile, that the fight wasn't over.

"The legislation might be dead, but the issue is still very much alive until it is solved at the state or federal level," Simmons told the newspaper. "A patchwork of local ordinances or policies is never best for all Texans.
Oh no, how will we protect women and children now?
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Old 08-16-17, 06:37 AM   #1141
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Re: Bathrooms - Maybe Texas Learned From The Mistakes Of Others

Yup! I fear tho that continuing to bring discrimination forward only normalizes it. That it becomes "worth" debating. As if discrimination is worth debating.

Big applause to Republican House Leader Stause. Yes, he is pro-business, but he also publicly spoke about how this was a solution searching for a problem and the harm it would do to the transgender community.

Only Strause could send a bill to committee for review (where if approved would go to the full house for a vote). And he simply did not send this to committee.
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