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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 12-10-16, 11:09 AM   #51
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

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Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
Too bad Republicans in Congress are too chickenshit to actually act on the CIA's report. We're getting to the point where a military coup may be a reasonable option.
Whoa there!

Do you really prefer an open-ended rule by men with guns over a bad president who will be up for re-election in four years?

There are occasional military coups where the army stabilizes the government and then turns it over to civilian leaders. Those are rare heroes. If you look at Africa today, you'll see that the typical pattern is that the military leader takes control of the government and keeps it by any means. Since there are no standards, the rot goes from top to bottom. I knew someone from Sudan who had been arrested and beaten by police because he dated a girl that a police officer fancied. I'll keep the rule of law, thank you very much.
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Old 12-10-16, 11:10 AM   #52
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

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I can't confirm or deny your accusation because...it's a secret.

I played this game when I was in 2nd Grade. I guess the Obama Administration is reaching out to its most marketable base of believers.

At least have a transparent investigation that demonstrates a little bit of respect, but I guess that was too much to ask. Once again...WE KNOW THINGS...You people don't...and if you ask us...IT'S A SECRET. WE KNOW BETTER THAN YOU...you are not privileged to know things...so just move along.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, pretty much describes the last 8 years of Obama.
Specific information has been released, mostly by non-government investigators.

And the U.S. government never shows all of its cards. They don't want to reveal their capabilities and all of their info to other nations. In this case, a lot of the actual evidence would be of a highly technical nature, and average Americans wouldn't be able to make sense of it anyway.

It's pathetic but unsurprising that you trust Trump more than the U.S. intelligence community.
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Old 12-10-16, 11:12 AM   #53
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

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Do you really prefer an open-ended rule by men with guns over a bad president who will be up for re-election in four years?
Do you really think an election that has been subverted by a foreign power is meaningful in any way?

I don't support a military coup, but let's be frank: at this point, it would be a counter-coup. We are long past the point where there are good or pleasant solutions, and no matter what action is taken, this country is in the midst of a Constitutional crisis.
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Old 12-10-16, 11:16 AM   #54
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
I can't confirm or deny your accusation because...it's a secret.

I played this game when I was in 2nd Grade. I guess the Obama Administration is reaching out to its most marketable base of believers.

At least have a transparent investigation that demonstrates a little bit of respect, but I guess that was too much to ask. Once again...WE KNOW THINGS...You people don't...and if you ask us...IT'S A SECRET. WE KNOW BETTER THAN YOU...you are not privileged to know things...so just move along.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, pretty much describes the last 8 years of Obama.

When the report comes out, will you proclaim: "Obama blew valuable intelligence assets for partisan political reasons"?
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Old 12-10-16, 11:21 AM   #55
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

I think the FBI announcements and leaks had a bigger influence on the election than the Russia/WikiLeaks stuff. And I'm actually more disturbed that internal actors (FBI leakers, supposedly concentrated in New York) were attempting to sway voters and help elect Trump.

As I've repeatedly said, I believe that the cumulative effect of these actions and associated GOP propaganda was enough to alter the outcome of the election. And data supports but cannot confirm that conclusion.
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Old 12-10-16, 11:23 AM   #56
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

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Do you really think an election that has been subverted by a foreign power is meaningful in any way?
But is that what they did? It's not like they rigged voting booths. The election would've turned out the same had Russia helped with these leaks or not.

Now, the simple fact that Russia prefers one candidate over the other; that is cause for concern. Kinda like how if the Nazi party prefers one candidate over the other should give you concern.
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Old 12-10-16, 11:27 AM   #57
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

I think Russia would have preferred Bernie sanders over anyone. The fact is Clinton was a terrible candidate . All this other crap is a sideshow
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Old 12-10-16, 11:28 AM   #58
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

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Do you really think an election that has been subverted by a foreign power is meaningful in any way?

I don't support a military coup, but let's be frank: at this point, it would be a counter-coup. We are long past the point where there are good or pleasant solutions, and no matter what action is taken, this country is in the midst of a Constitutional crisis.
I don't accept your premise.

I have no doubt that the Russian government tried to influence the presidential election. It was a close election, and just maybe they were able to tip it. That doesn't create a constitutional crisis. The Constitution is robust enough to survive.

However, I do hope that the Senate will be angry enough to take steps. I want Putin's fingers to be burned so badly that nobody will try that again for generations.
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Old 12-10-16, 11:29 AM   #59
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

I do have to point out that no other government has meddled in more elections in other countries than the US. Just sayin'...
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Old 12-10-16, 11:30 AM   #60
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

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It's the act of a shameless partisan to see evidence of foreign interference in our election and decide that the proper response is to blame the victim of that interference for not being strong enough to win despite the interference.
I agree 100% that foreign interference in our elections is NOT a partisan issue. I'm absolutely disgusted that many Republicans apparently care only about obtaining and maintaining power. They have no principles.
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Old 12-10-16, 11:33 AM   #61
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

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I want Putin's fingers to be burned so badly that nobody will try that again for generations.
Trump is not going to do anything
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Old 12-10-16, 11:35 AM   #62
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

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Trump is not going to do anything
That's why I specified the Senate.
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Old 12-10-16, 11:36 AM   #63
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

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Whoa there!

Do you really prefer an open-ended rule by men with guns over a bad president who will be up for re-election in four years?
The Founding Fathers' two biggest fears were that democracy would be subverted by a demagogue or an agent of a foreign power. In Donald Trump we have the realization of both.

Democracy is not the purpose of our government. It's a mean to the ends -- to securing the liberty of all the people. As Churchill observed, it's not a particularly good tool for doing this, but it's better than any of the others. But even democracy reaches a point when it fails. When a foreign power is actively meddling in our election in favor of one party, who then wins by a fluke of the system despite losing the popular vote by more than two and a half million votes, the system is no longer functioning as it should. We can't cling to it out of some fetishistic loyalty if it means the actual purpose of our government is lost.

It'd be nice if our politicians availed themselves to some of the legal tools the Constitution provides for preventing this outcome -- the electoral college, impeachment, the 25th Amendment -- but it's clear that the Republicans are more in love with power than republican principles. Which means, yes, we're reaching the point where revolution is a viable alternative, and in a modern state that requires the cooperation of the military.
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Old 12-10-16, 11:41 AM   #64
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

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But is that what they did? It's not like they rigged voting booths. The election would've turned out the same had Russia helped with these leaks or not.

Now, the simple fact that Russia prefers one candidate over the other; that is cause for concern. Kinda like how if the Nazi party prefers one candidate over the other should give you concern.
Russia's actions influenced the election. They were able to prevent the far left from fully getting on board with Clinton, and they were able to raise doubts and reinforce doubts about Clinton in the minds of many independents. How many hardcore Sanders supporters stayed home or voted for a third-party candidate as a result of the DNC and Podesta emails? How many independents ended up breaking toward Trump instead of Clinton? Have you forgotten about the well-timed email dump ahead of the Democratic convention and the drip-by-drip release of emails ahead of the election? WikiLeaks tried to maximize the political damage. And the GOP and Trump campaign specifically targeted these groups with propaganda based on the emails. THEY SAID SO.

This was a close election. It easily could have gone the other way without the interference of Russia and the FBI.
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Old 12-10-16, 11:57 AM   #65
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

I agree that the election of Trump represents a failure of our democracy and other institutions. But at this point, we're stuck with Trump, probably for at least 4 years.

There is an outside chance that extremely devastating info will be released before the Electoral College meets or before Trump is sworn in on Inauguration Day. The info would have to be an impeachable offense of such magnitude that even Republican legislators turn against Trump. In the first scenario, the Electoral College might vote for Pence or another Republican like Ryan. (Republican voters wouldn't accept Clinton. Only God knows how they would respond to her election.) In the second scenario, Republicans could use the threat of impeachment to force Trump to abdicate his claim on the office. They would dump Trump for Pence. But again, the likelihood of this happening is extremely remote.
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Old 12-10-16, 11:58 AM   #66
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

Can you imagine the outcry, if the roles had been reversed? The GOP, would be drawing up papers, to declare war on Russia, and demand an other election. I hope, I'm wrong, but the Democrats, aren't gonna do jackshit.
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Old 12-10-16, 11:59 AM   #67
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

By howard wolfson on Twitter:

Number of Congressional hearings on Benghazi: 33. Number of Congressional hearings on Russian efforts to influence our election: 0.
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Old 12-10-16, 12:02 PM   #68
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

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Can you imagine the outcry, if the roles had been reversed? The GOP, would be drawing up papers, to declare war on Russia, and demand an other election. I hope, I'm wrong, but the Democrats, aren't gonna do jackshit.
I could've been...

Russian Hackers Had RNC Data But Didn't Release It

And if they still haven't released it, then that means that Trump and the Republicans are STILL under the influence of the Russians. The interference didn't end with the election.
Let that sink in...
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Old 12-10-16, 12:04 PM   #69
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

I'm upset at Marco for bailing out as I was voting for him, but I admire his comments on the email leaks out of the DNC. Many folks here in FL (all party and no party affiliation) were under constant bombardment of these emails and were utterly disgusted by HRC and the DNC. You can go fuck yourself if you think this had no influence in the election.

"Further, I want to warn my fellow Republicans who may want to capitalize politically on these leaks: Today it is the Democrats. Tomorrow it could be us."

http://theweek.com/speedreads/656144...-leaked-emails
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Old 12-10-16, 12:08 PM   #70
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

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Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
The Founding Fathers' two biggest fears were that democracy would be subverted by a demagogue or an agent of a foreign power. In Donald Trump we have the realization of both.
And some people were more obsessed with Hillary's damn emails. Did the email about drones have a C mark when it was sent to her? Fucking ridiculous.
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Old 12-10-16, 12:18 PM   #71
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

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But is that what they did? It's not like they rigged voting booths. The election would've turned out the same had Russia helped with these leaks or not.

Now, the simple fact that Russia prefers one candidate over the other; that is cause for concern. Kinda like how if the Nazi party prefers one candidate over the other should give you concern.
First of all, we don't know whether they rigged the voting booths. I assume not, but it's not impossible and it hasn't been investigated.

Second, the election would not have turned out the same. Not necessarily. Wikileaks swayed some portion of the electorate. How large a portion? I don't know. But given the thin margins in battleground states, it seems likely that some of those were flipped due to Russian interference.

Third, it is not simply the fact that Russia prefers a Trump administration. It is the fact that they have leverage. It has now been revealed that the RNC servers were hacked. That information was not leaked. Why? What kompromat does the Kremlin now have on Republican leaders? Did Trump (or his people) work directly with Moscow, and if so, will Putin leverage evidence of that collaboration to blackmail Trump? I don't have the answers to any of those questions, but they are important questions that need to be asked, and the fact that so many Republicans are unwilling to ask them is of grave concern.
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Old 12-10-16, 12:18 PM   #72
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

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I think Russia would have preferred Bernie sanders over anyone. The fact is Clinton was a terrible candidate . All this other crap is a sideshow
Clinton's viability as a candidate is not the issue. One day they will do something that affects all Americans and then people like you will conveniently forget when you brushed it off because it didn't happen to your team.
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Old 12-10-16, 12:24 PM   #73
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

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Clinton's viability as a candidate is not the issue. One day they will do something that affects all Americans and then people like you will conveniently forget when you brushed it off because it didn't happen to your team.
Sorry i have no team
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Old 12-10-16, 12:25 PM   #74
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

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Sorry i have no team
No team is also a team.
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Old 12-10-16, 12:26 PM   #75
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re: CIA: Russia tried to help Trump win the election

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Sorry i have no team
Well, not now because it is being dismantled and is about to take it by invaders using KremlinY Jelly.
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