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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 12-03-16, 09:28 PM   #101
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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Originally Posted by mspmms View Post
I believe that Joe Biden was told the fix was in and Hillary Clinton was going to be their choice.
Hindsight is 20/20. Clinton was the best choice for the establishment. Bernie was as much of a disruptor as Trump, and is lucky to have gotten the traction he got. Bernie is a smart guy and knows this.
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Old 12-03-16, 11:19 PM   #102
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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The Democrats are in an unenviable situation. If they work towards idealistic principles of being "the party of the people", they're smeared as "hippies" and they lose. If they compromise with the conservative element to get things done in corporate-owned Washington D.C. they're smeared as "sell-outs" and now they lose.

Progressives, we do this to ourselves.
But is that really exclusive to Democrats? Republicans are/were criticized for adhering too much to "traditional" conservative principles and were smeared as racists, and nut jobs. When they compromise with the liberal/progressive element they're smeared as "RINO's"-Republicans In Name Only.
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Old 12-03-16, 11:26 PM   #103
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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Hindsight is 20/20. Clinton was the best choice for the establishment. Bernie was as much of a disruptor as Trump, and is lucky to have gotten the traction he got. Bernie is a smart guy and knows this.
Good point about hindsight, but some of the rationalization for for supporting Hillary over Bernie was not necessarily that Democrats/liberals disagreed with his policies, but that a self-proclaimed "Democratic socialist" could never beat Trump.

Further rationalization was that if Bernie couldn't beat Hillary, how could he beat Trump? Well, if you go vote in the primaries believing in Bernie's policies and platform, but think that swing voters won't support Bernie Sanders, of course he's going to come in second. Not to mention the alleged bias of the DNC regarding the primaries and the super delegates.
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Old 12-11-16, 04:28 PM   #104
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

Vice President Biden discusses the future of the democratic party



Biden on Future Leaders of the Democratic Party: Obama, Pelosi, Schumer, and Me.
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Old 12-11-16, 04:57 PM   #105
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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Vice President Biden discusses the future of the democratic party



Biden on Future Leaders of the Democratic Party: Obama, Pelosi, Schumer, and Me.
So the future of the Democratic party is its past which has lost the House, lost the Senate, lost the governors, lost the state legislatures and lost the presidency. Well there's a recipe for disaster. At least Reid is gone.

Their only hope is that Trump will fuck up which is the best thing they've got going.
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Old 12-11-16, 10:07 PM   #106
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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Vice President Biden discusses the future of the democratic party



Biden on Future Leaders of the Democratic Party: Obama, Pelosi, Schumer, and Me.
HE should have run instead of Hillary.
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Old 12-12-16, 09:22 PM   #107
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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HE should have run instead of Hillary.
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Old 12-13-16, 11:13 AM   #108
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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HE should have run instead of Hillary.
First, it would not have been "instead" of Hillary, it would have been against Hillary. Second, I don't quite get all the post-election wistful Biden adoration. Yes, there are things to admire about him. But he ran for president twice, and failed miserably both times. He showed a remarkable ability to put his foot in his mouth.

What did 8 years as VP do to change any of that? Sure, he's loved as a "good VP" but that doesn't really mean anything, and I don't know why it makes him such a good candidate. One or two really bad gaffes -- and they most definitely would have happened -- and all of you wishing he had run would start thinking "why the heck did we pick this guy?"
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Old 12-13-16, 11:25 AM   #109
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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First, it would not have been "instead" of Hillary, it would have been against Hillary. Second, I don't quite get all the post-election wistful Biden adoration. Yes, there are things to admire about him. But he ran for president twice, and failed miserably both times. He showed a remarkable ability to put his foot in his mouth.

What did 8 years as VP do to change any of that? Sure, he's loved as a "good VP" but that doesn't really mean anything, and I don't know why it makes him such a good candidate. One or two really bad gaffes -- and they most definitely would have happened -- and all of you wishing he had run would start thinking "why the heck did we pick this guy?"


2016 was a 'change' election, like 1980 or 1992 or 2008. And nothing represents change quite like a guy who's been vice-president for eight years and was in the Senate for 35+ years before that.
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Old 12-13-16, 11:54 AM   #110
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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One or two really bad gaffes -- and they most definitely would have happened -- and all of you wishing he had run would start thinking "why the heck did we pick this guy?"
That's rich. Biden would've been running against a guy who bragged about sexually assaulting women, calling Mexians rapists and making fun of handicapped people. Biden would've been held to a higher standard than Trump?

And more to the point: Biden has more charisma than Hillary could ever hope to have. And charisma--above all else (as Trump has proved) is the deciding factor nowadays...
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Old 12-13-16, 12:22 PM   #111
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

Guys, Joe Biden couldn't beat Michael Dukakis. Why do we think he could beat Trump?
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Old 12-13-16, 12:35 PM   #112
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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Guys, Joe Biden couldn't beat Michael Dukakis.
Biden isn't THAT bad.
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Old 12-13-16, 12:38 PM   #113
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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That's rich. Biden would've been running against a guy who bragged about sexually assaulting women, calling Mexians rapists and making fun of handicapped people. Biden would've been held to a higher standard than Trump?

And more to the point: Biden has more charisma than Hillary could ever hope to have. And charisma--above all else (as Trump has proved) is the deciding factor nowadays...
Your charisma point is well taken, in that I believe charisma is important in the general election, but it is less important in a democratic primary. I have no confidence that Biden would actually have beaten Hillary had he run. Moreover, I think his gaffes would have worked against any charisma advantage.

As for his gaffes versus Trump's, do you understand that there is a double standard? Or, rather, the voters who ultimately didn't give a shit about Trump's statements would not be Biden voters?

For all the craziness of this past election, it seemed to me that it ultimately played out like a "normal" election (I know all the data isn't in yet). Party identification held true, and the oft-repeated maxim of Democrats need turnout and Republicans vote more faithfully held true. And a democratic candidate who puts his foot in his mouth constantly would likely result in turning off some of the democratic electorate.

That said, I do think that Biden could very well have beaten Trump. I think that is far more true than the people suggesting that Sanders could have done so. That said, I do not think Biden would have beaten Hillary in the primary. I don't think he would have even come close.
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Old 12-13-16, 12:38 PM   #114
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Biden isn't THAT bad.
not sure if serious. he was that bad.
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Old 12-13-16, 12:41 PM   #115
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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Biden isn't THAT bad.
He's pretty bad. Not Hillary or Bernie or Warren bad but bad. And old. But they're all old.
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Old 12-13-16, 01:18 PM   #116
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

This was the meme election. I'll put BidenBro memes up against Pepe any day.
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Old 12-13-16, 01:22 PM   #117
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

We could have The Walking Dead election in 2020:

Biden
Bernie
A dug-up Jesse Helms corpse
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Old 12-13-16, 01:55 PM   #118
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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But they're all old.
Trump is older than Reagan when he was sworn in--and Reagan had more wrinkles than a scrotum. But, yeah, yeah, double standards...
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Old 12-13-16, 02:19 PM   #119
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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Trump is older than Reagan when he was sworn in--and Reagan had more wrinkles than a scrotum. But, yeah, yeah, double standards...
I didn't vote for Trump or Reagan.
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Old 12-13-16, 02:42 PM   #120
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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Trump is older than Reagan when he was sworn in--and Reagan had more wrinkles than a scrotum. But, yeah, yeah, double standards...
Reagan's age was definitely an issue in the campaigns back then. But it's hard to make Trump's age a campaign issue when his opponent is pretty much the same age.

Not a double standard in this case.
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Old 12-13-16, 04:04 PM   #121
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

Samantha Bee's take:

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Old 12-13-16, 04:25 PM   #122
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

if one is a social conservative, no changes are needed for the Democratic Party. It needs to nominate Hillary Clinton in 2020.

The converse is that it needs to nominate a pro-life candidate who is fiscally responsible and change its platform to abandon divisive identity politics. That more inclusive approach would garner a lot of votes from people who could never vote for a Democratic national agenda.



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Old 12-13-16, 05:09 PM   #123
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

It doesn't need to nominate a pro-life candidate.

Strangely I recall that more people voted Democratic this past election cycle then voted Republican.
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Old 12-13-16, 05:14 PM   #124
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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if one is a social conservative, no changes are needed for the Democratic Party. It needs to nominate Hillary Clinton in 2020.

The converse is that it needs to nominate a pro-life candidate who is fiscally responsible and change its platform to abandon divisive identity politics. That more inclusive approach would garner a lot of votes from people who could never vote for a Democratic national agenda.
So both Republicans and Democrats have to to go pro-life and not talk about equality for all people, including race, gender and sexual orientation?

That's how you end up with this:

Spoiler:


Instead of this:

Spoiler:
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Old 12-13-16, 05:38 PM   #125
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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So both Republicans and Democrats have to to go pro-life and not talk about equality for all people, including race, gender and sexual orientation?
Ummm...no.

I specified abandoning identity politics (pitting people against others), and you talk about "equality for all people"...which is the antithesis of identity politics.

The whole point of being pro-life is to protect all people (not just specific genders, races, etc.) and a platform advocating advancing the causes of all people (and not just doing whatever it takes to appeal to voter blocs) is the epitome of inclusion.

As to the pictures you posted, what's the connection between the racial minorities represented and being pro-life or pro-choice?




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