Release List Reviews Shop Join News DVD Giveaways Video Games Advertise
DVD Reviews | Theatrical Reviews | Price Search Buy Stuff Here
DVD Talk
DVD Reviews DVD Talk Headlines HD Reviews


Add to My Yahoo! - RSS 2.0 - RSS 2.0 - DVD Talk Podcast RSS -


Go Back   DVD Talk Forum > General Discussions > Other Talk > Religion, Politics and World Events

Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-28-16, 08:55 AM   #101
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
hdnmickey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 9,116
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by movielib View Post
I don't have trouble with moral absolutes. But I don't see how believing in Jesus has anything to do with morality.
Ditto.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 10:15 AM   #102
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,697
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandoman View Post
First, I don't take any offense and take your comments in the spirit in which they were intended, so thank you for that. Second, I should have been more careful with my language in this thread, since my comment could have offended you. That approach would have been more appropriate for the "bashing" thread, not this one. Sorry about that.

The idea that everyone has innate knowledge of God that s/he can either accept or reject is interesting. What it the biblical (or other) basis for this? If you want to post the link to the sermon, that's fine (but I probably won't get around to watching it until the weekend).

Let's leave the concept of "original sin" for another day, as that is a big topic in and of itself.
Thanks, Bando. Although all should understand & appreciate your civility (and the observation about when & where to say certain things to avoid offense), your intent was clearly not to offend. In fact, you made it clear that you were talking about what would be not just a hypothetical situation but one that you would not accept even if discussing reality (that's convoluted, so hope it makes sense). In other words, I took it as saying that you were rejecting that characterization of God rather than God Himself (if God exists as a real entity). So, now that I think of it, it actually does sort of fit into the topic of exchanges about Christian ideas. I'm seen the same sentiments expressed from Christians, too, regarding the character of God.

Anyway, getting long-winded again, but thanks for recognizing that I was expressing what I believe to be real. I hoped that you wouldn't be offended or feel it was presumptuous, but that didn't give you enough credit. Your reaction is exactly in character to what you've demonstrated in the past...which, btw, is part of the experience of how one can "know" God and His character (although "experience" is only supporting evidence...circumstantial, if you will. ). The "meat" of the argument is in the text itself.

Which, btw, I'll get around to. I'd like to gather up some of the most pertinent passages (it was just touched on again in the currently-ongoing series from Romans, for starters).

Also, speaking of being offended, I know that the topic of all humans having some knowledge of God (enough to be worthy of a death sentence, in fact...the negative connotation of "conviction") is a sort spot for some when it is brought up. It brings up a really interesting theological/philosophical point that we can discuss: Are atheists lying when they say that they do not believe that God exists? Or do they actually believe that they believe God doesn't exist, while deep down they actually know the truth. In other words, are they denying the truth absolutely or have they simply suppressed the truth to the point that they actually believe what they say...despite actions that run contrary to their stated beliefs.

Hopefully, that has you either intrigued enough or confused enough to want to ask wtheck it means.

[EDIT] I just quickly googled to pull this up from Romans 1 (where we are in our series); I think some are the others are from John, I Corinthians, the Psalms, among others. I'm terrible at memorizing actual chapters & verse citations; much better at remembering the quotes (or close approximations) enough to allow for quick location using the internet. In the olden days, a huge concordance was necessary, and then you were going by words/phrases and had to sift through verses that did not apply. Technology is a great tool for Bible study!

Romans 1: 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

There are several other (many other?) passages, and I'll try to listen to sermon(s) again, Google the topic (again, usually you can find some article about it, especially on sites such as monergism which is a clearinghouse for articles/columns on a vast array of theological topics (easily sorted), look in systematic theology books, look at the Westminster Confession of Faith with accompanying proof texts, etc.

Only after that would I bug our pastor, who sent out an email at 5:17 that his lovely wife Amy is dilated 7 centimeters (my wife the delivery nurse understands the significance of all these measurements) and the arrival of Baby # Nine is imminent to join siblings Abigail, Seth, Paul, Maria, Lily, Hannah, Malachai, & Elizabeth.

Last edited by creekdipper; 03-28-16 at 10:26 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 10:32 AM   #103
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,697
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by movielib View Post
I don't have trouble with moral absolutes. But I don't see how believing in Jesus has anything to do with morality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hdnmickey View Post
Ditto.
Lib, I was teasing you earlier & perhaps you haven't had time to respond, but I'm pretty sure you are saying that you don't see why one has to believe in Jesus/God/Holy Spirit in order to have some type of morality...which everyone has in some form or fashion.

(The gentle was at the literal content of your words; obviously, everyone who knows anything about the Jesus of the Bible understands the connection between Him & moral standards, although people disagree as to what those standards would be).

If the topic is what standards do Christians believe Jesus advocates, then that's a good discussion topic here. If the topic is whether non-believers or believers of other religions can have moral standards equal to those advocated by God, then I dunno...would that be better discussed here or the other thread?

What do you think?

Did you mean "What makes moral standards supported by Jesus (i.e., biblical standards) better than other moral standards?"
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 10:36 AM   #104
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,697
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Btw...I love to hear the views of other Christians on any of these topics or others, which was the original intent of this catch-all thread for discussing All Things Christianity.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 10:43 AM   #105
Enormous Genitals
 
Bandoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: a small cottage on a cul de sac in the lower pits of hell.
Posts: 31,149
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Thanks, Bando. Although all should understand & appreciate your civility (and the observation about when & where to say certain things to avoid offense), your intent was clearly not to offend. In fact, you made it clear that you were talking about what would be not just a hypothetical situation but one that you would not accept even if discussing reality (that's convoluted, so hope it makes sense). In other words, I took it as saying that you were rejecting that characterization of God rather than God Himself (if God exists as a real entity). So, now that I think of it, it actually does sort of fit into the topic of exchanges about Christian ideas. I'm seen the same sentiments expressed from Christians, too, regarding the character of God.

Anyway, getting long-winded again, but thanks for recognizing that I was expressing what I believe to be real. I hoped that you wouldn't be offended or feel it was presumptuous, but that didn't give you enough credit. Your reaction is exactly in character to what you've demonstrated in the past...which, btw, is part of the experience of how one can "know" God and His character (although "experience" is only supporting evidence...circumstantial, if you will. ). The "meat" of the argument is in the text itself.

Which, btw, I'll get around to. I'd like to gather up some of the most pertinent passages (it was just touched on again in the currently-ongoing series from Romans, for starters).

Also, speaking of being offended, I know that the topic of all humans having some knowledge of God (enough to be worthy of a death sentence, in fact...the negative connotation of "conviction") is a sort spot for some when it is brought up. It brings up a really interesting theological/philosophical point that we can discuss: Are atheists lying when they say that they do not believe that God exists? Or do they actually believe that they believe God doesn't exist, while deep down they actually know the truth. In other words, are they denying the truth absolutely or have they simply suppressed the truth to the point that they actually believe what they say...despite actions that run contrary to their stated beliefs.

Hopefully, that has you either intrigued enough or confused enough to want to ask wtheck it means.

[EDIT] I just quickly googled to pull this up from Romans 1 (where we are in our series); I think some are the others are from John, I Corinthians, the Psalms, among others. I'm terrible at memorizing actual chapters & verse citations; much better at remembering the quotes (or close approximations) enough to allow for quick location using the internet. In the olden days, a huge concordance was necessary, and then you were going by words/phrases and had to sift through verses that did not apply. Technology is a great tool for Bible study!

Romans 1: 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

There are several other (many other?) passages, and I'll try to listen to sermon(s) again, Google the topic (again, usually you can find some article about it, especially on sites such as monergism which is a clearinghouse for articles/columns on a vast array of theological topics (easily sorted), look in systematic theology books, look at the Westminster Confession of Faith with accompanying proof texts, etc.

Only after that would I bug our pastor, who sent out an email at 5:17 that his lovely wife Amy is dilated 7 centimeters (my wife the delivery nurse understands the significance of all these measurements) and the arrival of Baby # Nine is imminent to join siblings Abigail, Seth, Paul, Maria, Lily, Hannah, Malachai, & Elizabeth.
I can look it up, It just sounded like you had a particular sermon in mind that you had ready access to. Please don't bother your pastor about this now! He has enough on his mind.
__________________
"...Bando...you are perfect and awesome." - 4KRG
"Bando 4 Prez" - DVD Polizei
"[Bando is] nowhere near as big a weasel as Ted Cruz" - dork
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 11:10 AM   #106
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
hdnmickey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 9,116
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
If the topic is whether non-believers or believers of other religions can have moral standards equal to those advocated by God, then I dunno...would that be better discussed here or the other thread?
If you don't want people to respond to post as written, I suggest you ask folks like Phantom Stranger to refrain from making statements like the one below that go further than the purpose you supposedly have for this thread.

Quote:
I understand it's hard for many in modern society to wrap their heads around moral absolutes.

Last edited by hdnmickey; 03-28-16 at 11:38 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 11:26 AM   #107
DVD Talk Hero
 
inri222's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 35,736
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vibiana View Post
Here's an idea for Christians: stop playing the victim card. You're not being persecuted by someone not believing the same you do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mspmms View Post
I have a very high suspicion that Vibiana is talking about the US.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 11:28 AM   #108
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,697
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by hdnmickey View Post
If you don't want people to respond to poss as written, I suggest you ask folks like Phantom Stranger to refrain from making statements like the one below that go further than the purpose you supposedly have for this thread.
Mickey, I already explained that I was just teasing Lib in the first post.

Also, you took Phantom's words out of context. It was in the middle of his post commenting on how orthodox (biblical) Christian doctrine says that there is only one pathway to God...Jesus Christ.

I took his comment as addressing some modern, liberal theological views which teach contrary views to what he expressed and supported with scripture. I didn't take it as a slam on non-believers but simply commenting upon why views of some within the church have changed to adapt to current societal views. If I'm wrong, Phantom can correct me.

He posted his idea about Christianity and others had the opportunity to respond. Seems to be entirely in the spirit of the thread.

Where's the problem?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 11:32 AM   #109
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,697
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
I have a very high suspicion that Vibiana is talking about the US.
Well, a church in the neighboring county ("white" [sic] church, btw) was the target of arson last week, and hundreds of thousands of dollars in damages was the result. Due to the heavy smoke damage as well as the destruction, the congregation won't be able to meet there for at least a month (if cleanup and restoration goes according to schedule).

Does that count?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 11:36 AM   #110
DVD Talk Hero
 
inri222's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 35,736
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Does that count?
Only if the congregation was crucified like in the cartoon.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 11:37 AM   #111
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,697
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandoman View Post
I can look it up, It just sounded like you had a particular sermon in mind that you had ready access to. Please don't bother your pastor about this now! He has enough on his mind.
Here ya go, Bando. It's a recent sermon (3/13/16), but I had the title wrong (I got it confused with a chapter title he cited in last night's sermon from a book he recommended).

The actual sermon title is "Mankind: Without a Defense Idolators."

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninf...D=313161319398

(btw...this is the same pastor who posted the youtube video that you began stirred up your wrath a bit ago, so be forewarned! )
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 11:44 AM   #112
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
hdnmickey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 9,116
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Also, you took Phantom's words out of context.
Nope. But your willingness to rationalize a provocative off-topic statement, similar to those that complained about when made by others, has been noted.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 11:46 AM   #113
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,697
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
Only if the congregation was crucified like in the cartoon.
Inri, I started to post a snarky question (well, snarky by some standards ...thanks, JasonF! ), but caught myself.

The gist of the question was getting at the idea of whether persecution has to rise to a particular level to be called persecution.

No one is saying that arson is the same as blowing up Christians in Pakistan (we support Pakistani Christians who DO undergo some severe persecution and who have experienced local Christians being murdered, so we're aware of the difference).

Nonetheless, I think that most posters here...especially those who vehemently decry what they view as persecution of their own causes...would say that persecution takes many forms, and death and/or physical harm does not have to be involved.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 11:47 AM   #114
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,697
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by hdnmickey View Post
Nope. But your willingness to rationalize a provocative off-topic statement, similar to those that complained about when made by others, has been noted.
If you truly believe it was "provocative" (to whom?) and "off-topic" (how?), please explain.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 11:53 AM   #115
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Unknown
Posts: 4,084
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Serious question for the Christians (and others)....

Regarding the whole " thoughts and payers" sentiment. Set aside the fact that some believe these to be useless sentiments (and some would even argue harmful in an abstract way). Let's ignore that for the purpose of my question.

I cant bring myself to say it. I just can't. I will not be praying, so it seems very disingenuous to say that I will. So I typically say something along the lines of "my thoughts are with you, if you need anything please don't hesitate to ask" or even "sending good thoughts/vibes your way". When religious folks hear this, is it obvious to you that I left out "prayers"? And if so, do you still get comfort from kind words that don't include "prayers"? I would assume so, because it is the sentiment that counts...but we all know about assuming things...
__________________
"Have fun storming the castle!"
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 12:04 PM   #116
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Madison, WI ("77 square miles surrounded by reality")
Posts: 29,638
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Lib, I was teasing you earlier & perhaps you haven't had time to respond, but I'm pretty sure you are saying that you don't see why one has to believe in Jesus/God/Holy Spirit in order to have some type of morality...which everyone has in some form or fashion.

(The gentle was at the literal content of your words; obviously, everyone who knows anything about the Jesus of the Bible understands the connection between Him & moral standards, although people disagree as to what those standards would be).

If the topic is what standards do Christians believe Jesus advocates, then that's a good discussion topic here. If the topic is whether non-believers or believers of other religions can have moral standards equal to those advocated by God, then I dunno...would that be better discussed here or the other thread?

What do you think?

Did you mean "What makes moral standards supported by Jesus (i.e., biblical standards) better than other moral standards?"
I was answering PhantomStranger because I thought his comment was a non-sequitur.

You're reading way too much in. No offense, but I don't want to get into another discussion with you.
__________________
-
"[It is an] absurd notion that Hillary is more legitimate because she won a game that neither candidate was playing. Both sides campaigned, strategized, and spent money to win not a popular-vote plurality but 270 electoral votes...

"We don’t know who would have won the 2016... presidential race if the president was elected by popular vote because the race would have been run completely differently."

- David French
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 12:29 PM   #117
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,697
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave-o View Post
And if so, do you still get comfort from kind words that don't include "prayers"?
Yes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 12:39 PM   #118
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,697
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by movielib View Post
I was answering PhantomStranger because I thought his comment was a non-sequitur.

You're reading way too much in.
No offense, but I don't want to get into another discussion with you.
Can't blame you. No offense taken.

Reading way too much in? That's a poser.

Non sequitur? Another

non se·qui·tur
nän ˈsekwədər /noun
a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement.


Now, you should have noted that Phantom's statement was a response to a previous argument and statement (namely, mine...which he quoted).

He appeared to be commenting upon the idea that some want to say that Christianity can embrace and be compatible with "multiple paths" to God...which is what my post was discussing. He quoted scripture which refuted that mistaken notion while commenting how it is understandable that "many" (and he didn't specifically identify any particular group) would reject the idea of moral absolutes as presented in the Bible.

Note that he was not only responding to a post discussing the "many paths" modern belief but that he specifically kept his post to what the Bible actually says about the issue.

That was the topic. Phantom Stranger stayed perfectly on topic.

How by any logical application of the definition does that make his post a "non sequitur?"
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 12:43 PM   #119
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,697
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by hdnmickey View Post
Nope. But your willingness to rationalize a provocative off-topic statement, similar to those that complained about when made by others, has been noted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
If you truly believe it was "provocative" (to whom?) and "off-topic" (how?), please explain.
Mickey, I know that you can't immediately respond to every question, but honestly, it seems that every time you make an allegation and are asked to explain or provide proof, you perform a disappearing act...and then reappear when the smoke clears.

Could you please this once find the time to actually back up your statements rather than just "noting" them? Otherwise, they lack an air of credibility to anyone who has been following the conversation. And please don't wait for someone else to try to bail you out. You're a smart guy.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 01:11 PM   #120
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Madison, WI ("77 square miles surrounded by reality")
Posts: 29,638
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Can't blame you. No offense taken.

Reading way too much in? That's a poser.

Non sequitur? Another

non se·qui·tur
nän ˈsekwədər /noun
a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement.


Now, you should have noted that Phantom's statement was a response to a previous argument and statement (namely, mine...which he quoted).

He appeared to be commenting upon the idea that some want to say that Christianity can embrace and be compatible with "multiple paths" to God...which is what my post was discussing. He quoted scripture which refuted that mistaken notion while commenting how it is understandable that "many" (and he didn't specifically identify any particular group) would reject the idea of moral absolutes as presented in the Bible.

Note that he was not only responding to a post discussing the "many paths" modern belief but that he specifically kept his post to what the Bible actually says about the issue.

That was the topic. Phantom Stranger stayed perfectly on topic.

How by any logical application of the definition does that make his post a "non sequitur?"
The non sequitur was within his own two sentences I quoted.
__________________
-
"[It is an] absurd notion that Hillary is more legitimate because she won a game that neither candidate was playing. Both sides campaigned, strategized, and spent money to win not a popular-vote plurality but 270 electoral votes...

"We don’t know who would have won the 2016... presidential race if the president was elected by popular vote because the race would have been run completely differently."

- David French
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 01:15 PM   #121
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,697
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by movielib View Post
The non sequitur was within his own two sentences I quoted.
You're still confusing me.

You quoted those sentences out of the context of the overall conversation (which I recounted above). In the context of that exchange, the sentences were perfectly logical.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 02:15 PM   #122
Time Lord
 
Supermallet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Termite Terrace
Posts: 52,249
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by mspmms View Post
You know what? It's absolutely true that there are Christians in the Middle East who are being persecuted for their beliefs. They live under the pain of torture and death for their beliefs.

So, with that in mind, please explain to me how all the Christians who claim they're being persecuted in the United States are facing anything at all similar to what Christians in the Middle East are facing? Disagreeing with people isn't persecution. Telling Christians they can't have everything they want all the time isn't persecution. The whining and braying of US Christians is an insult to the people who really are fighting for religious freedom with their lives.
__________________
“Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”
Check out my vinyl collection!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 03:11 PM   #123
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
story's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 6,637
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave-o View Post
Serious question for the Christians (and others)....

Regarding the whole " thoughts and payers" sentiment. Set aside the fact that some believe these to be useless sentiments (and some would even argue harmful in an abstract way). Let's ignore that for the purpose of my question.

I cant bring myself to say it. I just can't. I will not be praying, so it seems very disingenuous to say that I will. So I typically say something along the lines of "my thoughts are with you, if you need anything please don't hesitate to ask" or even "sending good thoughts/vibes your way". When religious folks hear this, is it obvious to you that I left out "prayers"? And if so, do you still get comfort from kind words that don't include "prayers"? I would assume so, because it is the sentiment that counts...but we all know about assuming things...
I don't expect someone to pray if they don't want to pray. Yes, I do get comfort from kind words of all kinds, absolutely. The world would be a better place if more people chose kindness (and mercy) more often.

If you’re asking if I get the exact same comfort from “thoughts and vibes” as when someone offering prayer, no, I don’t, personally. It has similarities and I'm not offended, but it’s not the same for me. I like Ghosbusters II, but it just isn't the original Ghostbusters, you know? No one's told me they’ll send me thoughts and vibes instead of saying they’ll pray just to see if I get offended, which is good because that wouldn't be very kind (the motivations, I mean, not the words).

Yes, it's obvious to me that "prayers" is left out now and it was obvious to me when I was an atheist, too. Two arenas I see an anecdotal rise in "thoughts and vibes" sentiment is greeting cards and social media (“vibes” will likely not overtake “prayers” in politics any time soon for a myriad of reasons). You can now buy “Sending You Vibes!” type message cards at Target next to the religious card section (which should be renamed for what it is: “Cards with scripture quotes from the King James Version because that’s the cheapest Bible translation to be able to reprint and sell in a card,” but I digress…). On social media, I have friends (or more) who ask for and/or offer thoughts and vibes than prayer.

When a friend posts tough news on Facebook, I comment with a prayer. I don’t do it so prayer gets “equal opportunity” or to asset what really works here, people! I do it because that’s who I am, what I do, and what I believe in: I am one who prays, I pray, and I believe in prayer. I can’t tell you I know exactly with 100% complete certitude what prayer does, though I’m also not sure what thoughts and vibes do, either (I’m open to hearing what people have to say about them).

For what it’s worth, I can’t remember a time when my prayer comment didn’t get “liked” by that friend and/or some of their other friends. I’ve been approached privately by friends who want to ask for prayer or who want to offer prayer but don’t know how or why and so they don’t, but that’s a different topic.

This may just be me, but I don't understand how one "sends" good thoughts toward someone and I don't get what "vibes" are. The former feels like a form of symbolic telepathy and the latter reminds me of those animated, pulsating blue waves sending the healing power of medicines into your body in an Advil commercial. I don't mean to seem flippant, honest, it’s just what I picture as I try to figure it out. My best guess is sending good thoughts is a form of public solidarity, a way to say I care about you and I want good things for you and I will do my best to have your back. As for vibes, that’s a little more cryptic to me. I know there are theories about directing energies in the universe (something, something science – I’m out of my knowledge depth on that one!), is that what people are thinking about with that sentiment?

I notice asks and offerings of thoughts and vibes tend to be when things are tough. I can’t remember someone saying, “I got the job and we’re getting married! Please send me your thoughts and vibes today!” That’s purely anecdotal, and maybe others have seen this? As for prayer, it’s not just for when things are tough. Prayer is for many occasions, including thanksgiving and celebration. Is that the same for thoughts and vibes? I don’t know, when do others use it?

Without saying this is anyone else's experience, sending thoughts is the sort of thing I used to say when I was atheist. I wanted to show solidarity but I wasn't going to say "I'll pray for you" because I wasn't. I sometimes said I'm "sending good thoughts" and I meant it as solidarity in that moment but later when I really did give that person and their situation some private thought, I found myself falling into patterns of prayer (I grew up in the church, old habits die hard, etc.). These prayish (is that an adjective?) thoughts even sometimes had phrases in them like, "God, if you're real then you know this person needs your help, so... look, I care about them and they need help so I hope they get it." I am not saying anyone else ever does this, but at a time in my life when I strongly rejected God as real and didn’t experience church as a healthy thing and definitely had negative interactions with Christians, I sometimes had this little sliver of Pascal’s Wager going on.

Maybe you can tell me what you’d personally do, dave-o, but if you were to tell me that your thoughts are with me and if I need anything to please not hesitate to ask, and then I were to ask you to please pray for my situation, would you do it? Would you be frustrated that I asked that because you know that I know you’re atheist or at least don’t see the use in prayer?

For people who send thoughts and vibes, where did that idea come from for you? Prayer as concept is born from world religions (I’m not talking about whatever the ancient-most origins are, I’m talking about how if someone is praying today it’s likely in a faith-based context), but where/how was thoughts and vibes born? I have no idea.

Also, it also occurs to me that although my therapist knows everything that’s going on in my life and she knows I believe in prayer, but we don’t pray together, she doesn’t say she’ll pray for me, nor do I request it of her – all of which I’m fine with, by the way. If a client asked you to pray for them, I’m curious how would you respond as their therapist?

My apologies to "thoughts and vibes" people for comparing that sentiment to Ghosbusters II.
__________________
Choose kindness. | PSN / EA ID: Spatula _ City | The Simpsons: Tapped Out DVDTalk Thread | Can we rally together to discuss a DVDTalk Charity Fundraiser?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 03:19 PM   #124
DVD Talk Legend
 
Vibiana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Living in a van down by the river
Posts: 12,753
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

What is praying for someone if it's not thinking of them, keeping them in your heart and hoping the best for them?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-16, 03:35 PM   #125
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Madison, WI ("77 square miles surrounded by reality")
Posts: 29,638
Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by story View Post
I don't expect someone to pray if they don't want to pray. Yes, I do get comfort from kind words of all kinds, absolutely. The world would be a better place if more people chose kindness (and mercy) more often.

If you’re asking if I get the exact same comfort from “thoughts and vibes” as when someone offering prayer, no, I don’t, personally. It has similarities and I'm not offended, but it’s not the same for me. I like Ghosbusters II, but it just isn't the original Ghostbusters, you know? No one's told me they’ll send me thoughts and vibes instead of saying they’ll pray just to see if I get offended, which is good because that wouldn't be very kind (the motivations, I mean, not the words).

Yes, it's obvious to me that "prayers" is left out now and it was obvious to me when I was an atheist, too. Two arenas I see an anecdotal rise in "thoughts and vibes" sentiment is greeting cards and social media (“vibes” will likely not overtake “prayers” in politics any time soon for a myriad of reasons). You can now buy “Sending You Vibes!” type message cards at Target next to the religious card section (which should be renamed for what it is: “Cards with scripture quotes from the King James Version because that’s the cheapest Bible translation to be able to reprint and sell in a card,” but I digress…). On social media, I have friends (or more) who ask for and/or offer thoughts and vibes than prayer.

When a friend posts tough news on Facebook, I comment with a prayer. I don’t do it so prayer gets “equal opportunity” or to asset what really works here, people! I do it because that’s who I am, what I do, and what I believe in: I am one who prays, I pray, and I believe in prayer. I can’t tell you I know exactly with 100% complete certitude what prayer does, though I’m also not sure what thoughts and vibes do, either (I’m open to hearing what people have to say about them).

For what it’s worth, I can’t remember a time when my prayer comment didn’t get “liked” by that friend and/or some of their other friends. I’ve been approached privately by friends who want to ask for prayer or who want to offer prayer but don’t know how or why and so they don’t, but that’s a different topic.

This may just be me, but I don't understand how one "sends" good thoughts toward someone and I don't get what "vibes" are. The former feels like a form of symbolic telepathy and the latter reminds me of those animated, pulsating blue waves sending the healing power of medicines into your body in an Advil commercial. I don't mean to seem flippant, honest, it’s just what I picture as I try to figure it out. My best guess is sending good thoughts is a form of public solidarity, a way to say I care about you and I want good things for you and I will do my best to have your back. As for vibes, that’s a little more cryptic to me. I know there are theories about directing energies in the universe (something, something science – I’m out of my knowledge depth on that one!), is that what people are thinking about with that sentiment?

I notice asks and offerings of thoughts and vibes tend to be when things are tough. I can’t remember someone saying, “I got the job and we’re getting married! Please send me your thoughts and vibes today!” That’s purely anecdotal, and maybe others have seen this? As for prayer, it’s not just for when things are tough. Prayer is for many occasions, including thanksgiving and celebration. Is that the same for thoughts and vibes? I don’t know, when do others use it?

Without saying this is anyone else's experience, sending thoughts is the sort of thing I used to say when I was atheist. I wanted to show solidarity but I wasn't going to say "I'll pray for you" because I wasn't. I sometimes said I'm "sending good thoughts" and I meant it as solidarity in that moment but later when I really did give that person and their situation some private thought, I found myself falling into patterns of prayer (I grew up in the church, old habits die hard, etc.). These prayish (is that an adjective?) thoughts even sometimes had phrases in them like, "God, if you're real then you know this person needs your help, so... look, I care about them and they need help so I hope they get it." I am not saying anyone else ever does this, but at a time in my life when I strongly rejected God as real and didn’t experience church as a healthy thing and definitely had negative interactions with Christians, I sometimes had this little sliver of Pascal’s Wager going on.

Maybe you can tell me what you’d personally do, dave-o, but if you were to tell me that your thoughts are with me and if I need anything to please not hesitate to ask, and then I were to ask you to please pray for my situation, would you do it? Would you be frustrated that I asked that because you know that I know you’re atheist or at least don’t see the use in prayer?

For people who send thoughts and vibes, where did that idea come from for you? Prayer as concept is born from world religions (I’m not talking about whatever the ancient-most origins are, I’m talking about how if someone is praying today it’s likely in a faith-based context), but where/how was thoughts and vibes born? I have no idea.

Also, it also occurs to me that although my therapist knows everything that’s going on in my life and she knows I believe in prayer, but we don’t pray together, she doesn’t say she’ll pray for me, nor do I request it of her – all of which I’m fine with, by the way. If a client asked you to pray for them, I’m curious how would you respond as their therapist?

My apologies to "thoughts and vibes" people for comparing that sentiment to Ghosbusters II.
I don't agree with everything you say but yours is a thoughtful post as I have come to always expect from you, story.

I will send good thoughts or wishes with the hope that it will make that person feel at least a little better and/or that there are people who care (vibes, however, is a little too for me ).

I realize that, at least for some people, prayers may be thought to actually have a positive effect from god or the cosmos or something) and I do not expect thoughts or good wishes to do that. But I don't think prayers do either and I don't believe in them in any reasonable way so I will not say that.

As for thoughts and good wishes upon a happy occasion? Mazel tov!
__________________
-
"[It is an] absurd notion that Hillary is more legitimate because she won a game that neither candidate was playing. Both sides campaigned, strategized, and spent money to win not a popular-vote plurality but 270 electoral votes...

"We don’t know who would have won the 2016... presidential race if the president was elected by popular vote because the race would have been run completely differently."

- David French
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:25 PM.


Copyright 2011 DVDTalk.com All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0