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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 03-23-16, 06:47 PM   #26
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by sracer View Post
I prophesy that this thread will not end well.
O ye of little faith!

There's no reason the thread should have to end at all. I actually had in mind having a place for Christian DVDTalkers to discuss among each other, but if those from other religions are genuinely curious and not simply demonstrating animosity (there's already a thread that should be sufficient for that), then that seems to be a good purpose, too.

Already several good questions have been posed and some excellent answers been given (including yours), so why would the thread end?

If Jews, Buddhists, non-theists, Hindus, or any other religious perspectives wanted to start a thread devoted to aspects of their beliefs, who would try to quash those threads?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantrobo View Post
Why does God have such an issue with Homosexuality?
Well, Robo, you've gone & made me post this ahead of schedule:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninf...D=320161318190

Title: "Vile Passions: Homosexuality and Other Sins"
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Old 03-23-16, 06:47 PM   #27
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

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Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
So the Golden Rule is a summary of a summary.

Well...since the golden rule predates the bible by a few centuries it is technically a summary of a copy of a summary...or something like that.
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Old 03-23-16, 06:48 PM   #28
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
O ye of little faith!

There's no reason the thread should have to end at all. I actually had in mind having a place for Christian DVDTalkers to discuss among each other, but if those from other religions are genuinely curious and not simply demonstrating animosity (there's already a thread that should be sufficient for that), then that seems to be a good purpose, too.

Already several good questions have been posed and some excellent answers been given (including yours), so why would the thread end?

If Jews, Buddhists, non-theists, Hindus, or any other religious perspectives wanted to start a thread devoted to aspects of their beliefs, who would try to quash those threads?



Well, Robo, you've gone & made me post this ahead of schedule:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninf...D=320161318190

Title: "Vile Passions: Homosexuality and Other Sins"
Can you summarize? I'm curious, but I'm also feeling lazy...
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Old 03-23-16, 07:11 PM   #29
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

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Originally Posted by dave-o View Post
Can you summarize? I'm curious, but I'm also feeling lazy...
Sure.

All sins...even the smallest variation from God's law...are sufficient to justly condemn a person to eternal separation from God. So in that sense, all sins are "equal."

Yet some sins fall into a more egregious category in the sense that they violate God's natural created order...which is why those practices are called an "abomination" to God.

Note the list of sins discussed in Romans 1:24-32 and the extra emphasis placed upon homosexuality when God "gives them over" to their rebellious minds (also note all the other sins also discussed):

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

You're missing a lot by not listening to Patrick, though. His sermons usually run about 42 minutes long; this one runs 51 minutes, I believe.
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Old 03-23-16, 07:28 PM   #30
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

If it didn't take so long to sing the lyrics to the entire poem by Francis Scott Key before every ball game, it would be interesting to see reactions to the fourth stanza:

O! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war’s desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav’n-rescued land,
Praise the power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, for our cause it is just.
And this be our motto— “In God is our trust; "
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O’er the land of the free, and the home of the brave.
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Old 03-23-16, 07:44 PM   #31
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Another familiar tune whose later stanzas are less well-known:

1 O beautiful for spacious skies,
for amber waves of grain;
for purple mountain majesties
above the fruited plain!
America! America! God shed his grace on thee,
and crown thy good with brotherhood
from sea to shining sea.

2 O beautiful for heroes proved
in liberating strife,
who more than self their country loved,
and mercy more than life!
America! America! May God thy gold refine,
till all success be nobleness,
and every gain divine.

3 O beautiful for patriot dream
that sees beyond the years
thine alabaster cities gleam,
undimmed by human tears!
America! America! God mend thine every flaw,
confirm thy soul in self-control,
thy liberty in law.
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Old 03-23-16, 07:46 PM   #32
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

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Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
Well, logically speaking, Christians don't have to believe that all other religions are wrong through and through, and can recognize that Christianity and other religions share many truths. But yes, in specific areas where Christianity says one thing, and another religion says something different, then a Christian believes Christianity is right and the other is wrong.

As far as salvation, there has been a wide range of beliefs within Christianity as far as who can be saved. I think most Christians believe that you cannot be saved THROUGH another religion.

In my own view, I hold out that while being a practicing Christian is your best chance for salvation, Jesus' mercy may also extend to people who don't identify as Christian. However, I feel it's kind of pointless for humans to spend too much time on this, as God's judgment on the matter is perfect, and a human's perspective can't be.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I get that we can't really understand God's purpose and acceptance of His people, but there have to be limits. For instance, Jews may be saved. However, those who subscribe to the Church of Satan probably aren't. I'm just wondering where the dividing line is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Luke 10:16: "The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me."

Now, if you are authorized to speak for the King, then your words are to obeyed just as if they came directly from the King, right? They are given the same weight as if they came from the King's own lips.

When the apostles were preaching divine revelation, there was no existing New Testament (and you & I have had conversations before about how the canon was established and why certain writings were included and others rejected, as the James White book explains). The apostles were not only authorized to preach (and perform miracles such as healing to attest to their authority), they were commanded to do so. And when the special revelation was complete and sufficient for all, there was a special warning given not to add or take away from what God has revealed. Thus, there is no need for any "new" revelation.
OK, thanks for that. I get it. But how does that condone Paul's personal consolidation of the Christian religion? He wasn't one of the apostles. Apparently one or more of the apostles said "this Paul guy is ok, listen to him". But you have to admit that much of what constitutes Christianity is formed through Paul's epistles/writings. How do we know it was all inspired by God? He often says "here's what God told me..., and here's what I surmised from what I believe about God..." I would think his writings would be suspect, pr at least critically analyzed very closely.
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Old 03-23-16, 07:47 PM   #33
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Another familiar tune whose later stanzas are less well-known:

1 O beautiful for spacious skies,
for amber waves of grain;
for purple mountain majesties
above the fruited plain!
America! America! God shed his grace on thee,
and crown thy good with brotherhood
from sea to shining sea.

2 O beautiful for heroes proved
in liberating strife,
who more than self their country loved,
and mercy more than life!
America! America! May God thy gold refine,
till all success be nobleness,
and every gain divine.

3 O beautiful for patriot dream
that sees beyond the years
thine alabaster cities gleam,
undimmed by human tears!
America! America! God mend thine every flaw,
confirm thy soul in self-control,
thy liberty in law.

That should be our National Anthem. It's beautiful.
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Old 03-23-16, 07:54 PM   #34
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Luke 10:16: "The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me."

Now, if you are authorized to speak for the King, then your words are to obeyed just as if they came directly from the King, right? They are given the same weight as if they came from the King's own lips.

When the apostles were preaching divine revelation, there was no existing New Testament (and you & I have had conversations before about how the canon was established and why certain writings were included and others rejected, as the James White book explains). The apostles were not only authorized to preach (and perform miracles such as healing to attest to their authority), they were commanded to do so. And when the special revelation was complete and sufficient for all, there was a special warning given not to add or take away from what God has revealed. Thus, there is no need for any "new" revelation.
Funny, the Jews also canonized their Bible and said that any "new" revelation was false. That would of course include the New Testament. So why were the Jews wrong but the early church leaders were right?

Also, if someone has the authority to speak for the King, but later the King decides that this person overstepped their bounds while speaking for him, should those commands still be obeyed?

It just seems odd that Jehovah was continually providing (apparently incomplete) revelation through the period of about 1500 BCE to about what, 100 CE (not even counting his apparent discussions with Adam and Eve, Noah, and other pre-Abrahamic figures)? And then just stopped completely. Seems like an omniscient omnipotent god could either get it right the first time or would still have something to say in the roughly two thousand years since the time of Christ.
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Old 03-23-16, 09:11 PM   #35
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

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Originally Posted by Bandoman View Post

OK, thanks for that. I get it. But how does that condone Paul's personal consolidation of the Christian religion? He wasn't one of the apostles. Apparently one or more of the apostles said "this Paul guy is ok, listen to him". But you have to admit that much of what constitutes Christianity is formed through Paul's epistles/writings. How do we know it was all inspired by God? He often says "here's what God told me..., and here's what I surmised from what I believe about God..." I would think his writings would be suspect, pr at least critically analyzed very closely.
Actually, Paul is often referred to as The Apostle (also The apostle Paul).

Paul was directly commissioned as an apostle by Christ (remember the road to Damascus when he was still known as Saul). Paul lists his qualifications, and other apostles attest to his validity.

As for being critically analyzed closely, I believe that has been covered quite extensively over the centuries by thousands of scholars.
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Old 03-23-16, 09:13 PM   #36
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

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Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
In war who are the good guys and who are the bad guys? Do the good guys get a free pass by god to kill?
That's a good question.

Here are some of the Christian criteria for going to war:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory
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Old 03-23-16, 09:19 PM   #37
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

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Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
Funny, the Jews also canonized their Bible and said that any "new" revelation was false. That would of course include the New Testament. So why were the Jews wrong but the early church leaders were right?

Also, if someone has the authority to speak for the King, but later the King decides that this person overstepped their bounds while speaking for him, should those commands still be obeyed?

It just seems odd that Jehovah was continually providing (apparently incomplete) revelation through the period of about 1500 BCE to about what, 100 CE (not even counting his apparent discussions with Adam and Eve, Noah, and other pre-Abrahamic figures)? And then just stopped completely. Seems like an omniscient omnipotent god could either get it right the first time or would still have something to say in the roughly two thousand years since the time of Christ.
1. The Jews rejected the Messiah, so God established a new Israel (believing Jews AND Gentiles). The entire message of the Old Testament AND N.T. was how man's covenant with God was broken and how a sacrifice was necessary to restore that broken covenant.

2. If the King decides that the spokesman exceeded his bounds, the King would intercede. The invalid messages would be null & void.

3. What new revelation would be necessary? Christ's work on the cross was all-sufficient to satisfy God's wrath and complete the redemptive plan. What more could be added? All we need to do now is obey God and watch His plan unfold.
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Old 03-23-16, 09:28 PM   #38
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
1. The Jews rejected the Messiah, so God established a new Israel (believing Jews AND Gentiles). The entire message of the Old Testament AND N.T. was how man's covenant with God was broken and how a sacrifice was necessary to restore that broken covenant.

2. If the King decides that the spokesman exceeded his bounds, the King would intercede. The invalid messages would be null & void.

3. What new revelation would be necessary? Christ's work on the cross was all-sufficient to satisfy God's wrath and complete the redemptive plan. What more could be added? All we need to do now is obey God and watch His plan unfold.
1. The Jewish prophets also claimed to speak for god, and Jews determined there were no further revelations prior to Jesus's appearance. Christians claim Jesus was the messiah but was rejected, however Jews claim Jesus was a false messiah. Both claim to speak for god. No intercessions have been forthcoming for either (or for Islam, who also claims to speak for god). Also, the Old Testament is not about how a sacrifice was necessary to restore our broken covenant with god. Jews believe they still have an active covenant with god without the need for a human sacrifice.

2. In this case, the "king" isn't a person. This "king" only speaks through other people. Some of these people claiming to speak for the king say no more words are forthcoming. There's no way to verify that this is the truth, so future words, including words that would render previous messages null and void, would be lost. You claim Jews rejected the messiah, meaning they felt that Jesus's message was invalid, how do you know there isn't a further message that you're missing because you've been misled by people who didn't want you to hear further communications from the king?

3. The Jews believed that their covenant with god was final too, yet according to Christianity, further revelation and a new covenant was necessary. Why couldn't the same be true of Christians? Maybe Jesus already returned and was rejected by Christians who didn't know what they were doing (forgive them for that). Wouldn't a new revelation and covenant be necessary at that point?
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Old 03-23-16, 09:56 PM   #39
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Mallet: It's 10:55 PM, & I haven't had supper yet. Let's continue this discussion tomorrow, compadre.
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Old 03-24-16, 07:00 AM   #40
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Good morning, Mallet (You may still be asleep on the West Coast since it's not quite 8 AM here).

I'm going to post a link here from a Jewish website examining ideas about Jesus from a Jewish perspective. I'd like to hear your reactions.

http://www.jewishvoice.org/media/pub...ut-yeshua.html

Re: your points above:

1. When did the need for blood sacrifices in the temple end, and why?

2. Unlike an earthly king limited in knowledge, the King of Creation who is eternal, omniscient, and omnipotent is able to maintain the integrity of His Word.

3. I don't understand your last point. While there are those who call themselves Christians who clearly reject the words of Christ, it seems a bit oxymoronic to say that those who follow Christ have also rejected Him.
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Old 03-24-16, 07:18 AM   #41
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Nice a cappella version of Keith Getty & Stuart Townsend's "In Christ Alone":

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Old 03-24-16, 07:20 AM   #42
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Inspirational (and funny) performance from Britain's Got Talent:

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Old 03-24-16, 08:24 AM   #43
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Actually, Paul is often referred to as The Apostle (also The apostle Paul).

Paul was directly commissioned as an apostle by Christ (remember the road to Damascus when he was still known as Saul). Paul lists his qualifications, and other apostles attest to his validity.

As for being critically analyzed closely, I believe that has been covered quite extensively over the centuries by thousands of scholars.
Wouldn't critically analyzing someone be a sin?
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Old 03-24-16, 08:40 AM   #44
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

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Originally Posted by Deadman31 View Post
Wouldn't critically analyzing someone be a sin?
Assuming that your question is sincere & not facetious, not critically analyzing someone's preaching is a sin (if you're talking about judging by the fruits [works], that also is commanded as long as it is not done hypocritically and is done in love).

The passages that command believers to be discerning and to test preaching against scipture would fill up 2-3 pages on this board.

Here are just a few:

Jesus cautioned, "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come" (Matt. 24:4-6). Later on he said, "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold" (Matt. 24:10-12). Paul writes, "Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (Gal. 1:7-9). The highest possible curse is put on those who preach a different Jesus, a different spirit, and a different gospel.

Paul also declares, "I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people" (Rom. 16:17-18).
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Old 03-24-16, 08:42 AM   #45
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Sure.

All sins...even the smallest variation from God's law...are sufficient to justly condemn a person to eternal separation from God. So in that sense, all sins are "equal."

Yet some sins fall into a more egregious category in the sense that they violate God's natural created order...which is why those practices are called an "abomination" to God.

Note the list of sins discussed in Romans 1:24-32 and the extra emphasis placed upon homosexuality when God "gives them over" to their rebellious minds (also note all the other sins also discussed):

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

You're missing a lot by not listening to Patrick, though. His sermons usually run about 42 minutes long; this one runs 51 minutes, I believe.
Thanks for the summary.

It sounds pretty similar to explanations that I have heard before.
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Old 03-24-16, 10:47 AM   #46
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

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Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
The way I used to rationalize/understand it when I believed was that homosexuality was really no different than any other unrepentant sin. God wants a certain standard of behavior (not stealing, only having married heterosexual sex, etc) and that living a lifestyle embracing said sin was living your entire life in rebellion to god's command. So a homosexual who practiced it was the same as a professional thief, etc etc. And for the inevitable argument of why did God create people with homosexual preferences or other 'sinful' predispositions, it's all part of His plan and we are just supposed to power through those feelings with God's help and be abstinent/not steal/etc.


Yeah, even when I was more of a believer I never understood why there was an emphasis on Homosexuality...until I realized it was the people I had teaching me religion that emphasized it a some sort of special sin.
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Old 03-24-16, 11:32 AM   #47
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Actually, Paul is often referred to as The Apostle (also The apostle Paul).

Paul was directly commissioned as an apostle by Christ (remember the road to Damascus when he was still known as Saul). Paul lists his qualifications, and other apostles attest to his validity.

As for being critically analyzed closely, I believe that has been covered quite extensively over the centuries by thousands of scholars.
Obviously I believe there is a difference in religious matters and scientific matters and how each should be judged.

However, it I don't use the dogma I grew up with, it still looks like a guy claimed to see Jesus, admitting that the others with him did not see Jesus, and then is able to give himself authority from the person that no one else saw.

But, that probably isn't something that can be resolved between us simply because I believe you believe the entire bible to be the actual words of God (or at least in spirit, not word for word). It seems like circular reasoning to me that tells me Paul is to be believed because he said Jesus said he should be believed. I tend to think people should be viewed by the fruit they bare. I'll give Paul props for the fruit, but I think he made some very terrible mistakes unknowingly because of his background as a Pharisee. It seems difficult to believe that if Jesus wanted the church structure we have today, that he would have been silent about it until the guy who claims he saw Jesus and Jesus gave him authority gave us Pharisee type stuff.

I like a lot of Paul. But I think he made the cut because he had the earliest writings.

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Old 03-24-16, 12:18 PM   #48
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

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Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Obviously I believe there is a difference in religious matters and scientific matters and how each should be judged.

However, it I don't use the dogma I grew up with, it still looks like a guy claimed to see Jesus, admitting that the others with him did not see Jesus, and then is able to give himself authority from the person that no one else saw.

But, that probably isn't something that can be resolved between us simply because I believe you believe the entire bible to be the actual words of God (or at least in spirit, not word for word). It seems like circular reasoning to me that tells me Paul is to be believed because he said Jesus said he should be believed. I tend to think people should be viewed by the fruit they bare. I'll give Paul props for the fruit, but I think he made some very terrible mistakes unknowingly because of his background as a Pharisee. It seems difficult to believe that if Jesus wanted the church structure we have today, that he would have been silent about it until the guy who claims he saw Jesus and Jesus gave him authority gave us Pharisee type stuff.

I like a lot of Paul. But I think he made the cut because he had the earliest writings.
You also have Peter equating the writings of Paul with scripture (2 Peter 3:16).
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Old 03-24-16, 01:41 PM   #49
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

You also have Paul and Peter disagreeing. So when they disagree, do I go with the guy that hung with Jesus or the guy who saw him in on a road where others did not see him? Obviously, I don't care about establishing one as more authoritative than the other, just trying to get the point across that if the entire book is scripture (as we Evangelicals tend to define it) you have some logical problems to deal with. Paul seemingly won that particular argument in Antioch, yet Peter is the rock on which the church is built (if you interpret that verse in that way).

Evangelicals tend to see it as all fact, all the word of God, and all equal to each other. The rationale for that belief is pretty weak to me. It's a lot of circular reasoning/tautology. I tend to take the words of Jesus as being more authoritative than the rest. But that leaves a lot less to interpret as "Go out and judge everyone."

Which I suppose makes me a very bad evangelical.
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Old 03-24-16, 04:18 PM   #50
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Re: Christian Idea Exchange

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Good morning, Mallet (You may still be asleep on the West Coast since it's not quite 8 AM here).

I'm going to post a link here from a Jewish website examining ideas about Jesus from a Jewish perspective. I'd like to hear your reactions.

http://www.jewishvoice.org/media/pub...ut-yeshua.html
Jews for Jesus is a fringe movement within Judaism that's given no credence by any practicing Jew. Kabbalah is less fringe than Jews for Jesus. So those ten "lies" sound more like ten reasons people are justifying their own beliefs to themselves. This is hardly surprising or new, since Christians claim that there are lines in the OT that point to Jesus or Original Sin or any purely Christian religious idea. They don't. It's all retconning. There is nothing in the Old Testament that says "Oh and by the way later I'm going to reincarnate myself as my own son and die on a cross to save everyone, j/k on this whole covenant I signed with you guys."

Re: your points above:

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
1. When did the need for blood sacrifices in the temple end, and why?

2. Unlike an earthly king limited in knowledge, the King of Creation who is eternal, omniscient, and omnipotent is able to maintain the integrity of His Word.

3. I don't understand your last point. While there are those who call themselves Christians who clearly reject the words of Christ, it seems a bit oxymoronic to say that those who follow Christ have also rejected Him.
1. Blood sacrifices ended in Judaism with the destruction of the Second Temple, because that is where the sacrifices are to be offered. I would guess even if a Third Temple were built, Jews would likely find some reason not to offer blood sacrifices either, but I could be underestimating the ultra-orthodox.

2. If Jehovah was able to maintain the integrity of his word, we wouldn't have translation disagreements, nor would we have three completely separate religions with very different philosophies claiming to all be stemming from the same word.

3. My point is that since Jehovah already changed his covenant and his message once, he might do it again, but Christians wouldn't be receptive to the new message, because they've been told by people who claim to speak for Jehovah that no new messages are forthcoming. Again, the Jews were told by people who claimed to speak for Jehovah that no new messages were forthcoming either, but Christians claim a new message was in fact delivered. Muslims also claim that a new message was delivered. So either Jehovah has delivered none (because he's imaginary), one, two, or three different messages to different people at different times, often with wildly conflicting content. And then there's groups like the Baha'i who believe that all different religions are just manifestations of a singular god that we cannot comprehend in its fullness, so maybe there are all new messages coming in that we aren't receptive to.

In other words, just because someone claiming to speak for your god says their chosen religion is the last and final one forever and goodnight, doesn't mean that's actually so.
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