Release List Reviews Shop Join News DVD Giveaways Video Games Advertise
DVD Reviews | Theatrical Reviews | Price Search Buy Stuff Here
DVD Talk
DVD Reviews DVD Talk Headlines HD Reviews


Add to My Yahoo! - RSS 2.0 - RSS 2.0 - DVD Talk Podcast RSS -


Go Back   DVD Talk Forum > General Discussions > Other Talk > Religion, Politics and World Events

Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-14-17, 08:46 AM   #1676
Time Lord
 
Supermallet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Termite Terrace
Posts: 52,256
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

First, I am sorry to hear about the sexual violations you experienced in your past, but that makes me even more dumbfounded that you would dismiss a woman's perspective on the matter.

Second, you say you would get the woman "mental help", but let's admit it, at a certain point you'd be locking up women for months until they give birth. Whether that incarceration is in an institution, a prison, or at home is immaterial, because the principle is the same. That is the only way you could truly enforce making abortion illegal. And that is a noxious thing.
__________________
“Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”
Check out my vinyl collection!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-17, 09:06 AM   #1677
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Lt Ripley's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Llama School
Posts: 6,055
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

I feel no sympathy for a cowardly bigot. I came out here long time ago about being violently raped when I was 5. Doesn't matter if they lift weights or not when you are five. A piece of shit bigot is a piece of shit bigot. No fucking way could I look a raped woman in the eye and demand her to carry a fetus to birth.
__________________
Christian sinners, stealing the emotional well-being of homosexuals everywhere
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-17, 02:57 PM   #1678
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,713
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonX View Post
If there is a serious argument to be maybe about something, then there are two or more points of view. In such cases I would generally lay out my views and what led me to believe them. I don't hold a judgement of correct or incorrect, because who is to say which arguement is the "correct" one? I don't hold the point of view that everyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong, and I think that is the crux of the issue here.

I try to always be honest, both to myself and others. If you and Creek hold honesty in such high regard, it would seem you are both willfully blinded to the dishonesty of others you choose to be (specifically figures in the current political environment).
Sorry. You have confused me with someone else (and likely Space Ape, too).

I am a retired public school teacher, not a politician.

And did you ever identify which social/moral/political issues you currently hold that you currently hold but don't maintain are absolutely correct?

Death penalty?
Abortion?
Same-sex marriage?
Deportation of illegal immigrants?
Single-payer health system?
Lowering of tax rates for individuals?
Equal pay for all genders?
Affirmative action?
Selective Service System?
Military engagement in foreign wars?
Electoral college?
Free college?
Religious Liberty bills?

All of those are serious issues with various sides being represented. Are you seriously saying that you do not have a clear, unwavering stand on any of them?

Which political party did you support in the last election? Did that party take clear stands on any...or all...of those issues?

(And that's not even touching philosophical issues such as the existence of deity(ies), life after death, etc.).

Last edited by creekdipper; 05-15-17 at 03:31 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-17, 03:23 PM   #1679
DVD Talk Legend
 
Troy Stiffler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Under an I-10 Overpass
Posts: 18,098
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Sixty eight pages and I haven't learned a thing.

Have we ever gotten back to the discussion of open and honest sexual education? My parents opted me out when I was in junior high. A few years later I had the internet. And education has come far since then. Any 10 year old can go on Youtube and learn everything they ever wanted to know from well-produced tasteful educational videos. And I think they should. Because of this, I think we're just-now entering new territory and unwanted pregnancy numbers (along with abortions ... and birth rates in general) are going to plummet. Check back in ten years and we'll see how it's going.

Everyone loves sex. Nobody ever wants to be in the position where they need an abortion. Take away consensual unwanted pregnancy (which is what education solves) and I don't think there would be too much remaining resistance when it comes to rape or the occasional abortion.
__________________
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-17, 03:35 PM   #1680
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,713
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
First, I am sorry to hear about the sexual violations you experienced in your past, but that makes me even more dumbfounded that you would dismiss a woman's perspective on the matter.

Second, you say you would get the woman "mental help", but let's admit it, at a certain point you'd be locking up women for months until they give birth. Whether that incarceration is in an institution, a prison, or at home is immaterial, because the principle is the same. That is the only way you could truly enforce making abortion illegal. And that is a noxious thing.
No, let's face the facts. You are "dumbfounded" by your mistaken perceptions that I can only surmise are clouded by your preconceived notions.

You are simply ignoring the actual posts in which I have acknowledged the specific hardships faced in pregnancy. In fact, I went further and mentioned the hardships faced by mothers after birth and how, while we can sympathize with them, most of us would never excuse those same mothers from taking the lives of their children due to their mental & physical hardships.

I submit that my view is far more understanding of the pressures of raising children than many ardent pro-choice supporters here would demonstrate...many who would call such mothers "monsters" and would call for the death penalty (or life imprisonment). Their mental anguish leading to morally-unacceptable choices are not offered as an excuse to declare them innocent.

So I have never "dismissed" the concerns of women. My wife worked as a telephone counselor at a crisis pregnancy center for years (in addition to serving on the board, delivering hundreds of babies in Labor & Delivery, and counseling/mentoring hundreds of mothers through the entire process at a local OB/GYN). So you're not talking to someone who hasn't heard many, many accounts of difficult circumstances and hasn't had personal contact with some of those same women while assisting them & delivering resources.

I could say that I am "dumbfounded" by the actual dismissing of the lives being aborted, which have been described in the most mocking of terms by "pro-choice" posters in these threads. I can only imagine that many of those same terms were used by groups throughout history as they ridiculed, persecuted, and butchered those that they found to be "subhuman." But given the callous nature of the comments and refusal to acknowledge the basic humanity of the individuals being aborted, it doesn't dumbfound me at all. When some of the most polite references include "parasite" and "tumor," it's not surprising at all.

As for concern for women, it is far easier and cheaper to support "getting rid of it"...the common phrase used to describe abortions...than to do the hard work of assisting women through their pregnancies, including medical emergencies. As for "showing compassion to women," I'll quote what I heard a director of NARAL say when confronted by a tearful woman who had regretted her abortion for decades: "Sometimes doing the wrong thing is the right thing to do."

That's the sort of "compassion" offered to women from those supporting legal abortions. Will people die from illegal abortions? Yes...just as people die from all sorts of illegal activities. We don't legalize everything we find to be immoral just because some will go ahead anyway and make a regrettable choice. Instead, we offer alternatives, support, and true compassion rather than a "quick fix."

Abortion is the easy way out. It's relatively cheap, nearly always fatal (for the "product of conception," sweeps the underlying causes under the rug so that society doesn't have to deal with it, and makes no demands upon the pro-choice supporter.

If a mother says that she will kill her child, do we lock her up now? Or do we offer mental health services (while removing the child as long as there is a threat)? When abortion was previously illegal, we didn't have "pregnancy prisons" despite the hysterical predictions that such would be inevitable. History does not support your contention.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-17, 03:47 PM   #1681
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,713
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post

Everyone loves sex. Nobody ever wants to be in the position where they need an abortion. Take away consensual unwanted pregnancy (which is what education solves) and I don't think there would be too much remaining resistance when it comes to rape or the occasional abortion.
I'm confused by the "take away consensual unwanted pregnancy" part unless you mean that comprehensive sex education would eliminate most unplanned pregnancies.

That's still not taking into account the number of pregnacies due to contraceptive failure or misuse, the conscious decision not to use contraception even when available, impulsive behavior, peer pressure, desire to become pregnant for reasons other than procreation, and impaired sexual intercourse.

Anecdotal evidence (from initial interviews with pregnant clients) indicates that very few (except the very young, the abused, or the mentally-handicapped) are unaware of birth control methods and their availability.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-17, 03:57 PM   #1682
DVD Talk Legend
 
Troy Stiffler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Under an I-10 Overpass
Posts: 18,098
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
I'm confused by the "take away consensual unwanted pregnancy" part unless you mean that comprehensive sex education would eliminate most unplanned pregnancies.
This is what I meant.

Quote:
That's still not taking into account the number of pregnacies due to contraceptive failure or misuse, the conscious decision not to use contraception even when available, impulsive behavior, peer pressure, desire to become pregnant for reasons other than procreation, and impaired sexual intercourse.

Anecdotal evidence (from initial interviews with pregnant clients) indicates that very few (except the very young, the abused, or the mentally-handicapped) are unaware of birth control methods and their availability.
If that's the case, then that should be the focus. Less debate and more prevention. More focus on educating people, and providing contraceptives (whether through charity, insurance, or legislation).

People aren't going to stop having sex anytime soon. And so few pregnancies are wanted.
__________________
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-17, 04:14 PM   #1683
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,713
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
This is what I meant.



If that's the case, then that should be the focus. Less debate and more prevention. More focus on educating people, and providing contraceptives (whether through charity, insurance, or legislation).

People aren't going to stop having sex anytime soon. And so few pregnancies are wanted.
I believe that most contraceptives are covered by medical insurance. Other forms are usually available at health clinics (and other venues such as public school clinics, etc.).

Even Hobby Lobby only objected to around four out of twenty forms of contraception.

No question that unplanned and unwanted pregnancies are not desired by anyone. Only a very few oppose the use of contraception, including those whose "official" religious beliefs forbid the use of "artificial" contraceptives.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-17, 02:03 PM   #1684
DVD Talk Legend
 
Vibiana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Living in a van down by the river
Posts: 12,753
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
No, let's face the facts. You are "dumbfounded" by your mistaken perceptions that I can only surmise are clouded by your preconceived notions.

You are simply ignoring the actual posts in which I have acknowledged the specific hardships faced in pregnancy. In fact, I went further and mentioned the hardships faced by mothers after birth and how, while we can sympathize with them, most of us would never excuse those same mothers from taking the lives of their children due to their mental & physical hardships.

I submit that my view is far more understanding of the pressures of raising children than many ardent pro-choice supporters here would demonstrate...many who would call such mothers "monsters" and would call for the death penalty (or life imprisonment). Their mental anguish leading to morally-unacceptable choices are not offered as an excuse to declare them innocent.

So I have never "dismissed" the concerns of women. My wife worked as a telephone counselor at a crisis pregnancy center for years (in addition to serving on the board, delivering hundreds of babies in Labor & Delivery, and counseling/mentoring hundreds of mothers through the entire process at a local OB/GYN). So you're not talking to someone who hasn't heard many, many accounts of difficult circumstances and hasn't had personal contact with some of those same women while assisting them & delivering resources.

I could say that I am "dumbfounded" by the actual dismissing of the lives being aborted, which have been described in the most mocking of terms by "pro-choice" posters in these threads. I can only imagine that many of those same terms were used by groups throughout history as they ridiculed, persecuted, and butchered those that they found to be "subhuman." But given the callous nature of the comments and refusal to acknowledge the basic humanity of the individuals being aborted, it doesn't dumbfound me at all. When some of the most polite references include "parasite" and "tumor," it's not surprising at all.

As for concern for women, it is far easier and cheaper to support "getting rid of it"...the common phrase used to describe abortions...than to do the hard work of assisting women through their pregnancies, including medical emergencies. As for "showing compassion to women," I'll quote what I heard a director of NARAL say when confronted by a tearful woman who had regretted her abortion for decades: "Sometimes doing the wrong thing is the right thing to do."

That's the sort of "compassion" offered to women from those supporting legal abortions. Will people die from illegal abortions? Yes...just as people die from all sorts of illegal activities. We don't legalize everything we find to be immoral just because some will go ahead anyway and make a regrettable choice. Instead, we offer alternatives, support, and true compassion rather than a "quick fix."

Abortion is the easy way out. It's relatively cheap, nearly always fatal (for the "product of conception," sweeps the underlying causes under the rug so that society doesn't have to deal with it, and makes no demands upon the pro-choice supporter.

If a mother says that she will kill her child, do we lock her up now? Or do we offer mental health services (while removing the child as long as there is a threat)? When abortion was previously illegal, we didn't have "pregnancy prisons" despite the hysterical predictions that such would be inevitable. History does not support your contention.
Thanks for finally laying bare the fact that your objection to abortion is all about punishing women.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-17, 05:56 PM   #1685
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,713
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread



  Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-17, 07:21 PM   #1686
Enormous Genitals
 
Bandoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: a small cottage on a cul de sac in the lower pits of hell.
Posts: 31,150
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

I don't think creek's motivation is punishing women. If you tell him that's his motivation, he knows you're wrong, and will discount what you say.

But here's the thing - the policies he appears to advocate will certainly have the effect of punishing women for having sex, regardless of motivation. And that's wrong.
__________________
"...Bando...you are perfect and awesome." - 4KRG
"Bando 4 Prez" - DVD Polizei
"[Bando is] nowhere near as big a weasel as Ted Cruz" - dork
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-17, 08:19 PM   #1687
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
hdnmickey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 9,116
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

At a certain point the taking of a position is a motivation. When the issue is a life altering one like abortion is definitely one of those times.

I post this as somebody that fully admits that my motivation is giving the only person directly effected full freedom of choice. And conversely, somebody that takes the opposite position doesn't get to pretend their motivation isn't denying women that same thing I make a priority. Control over their own body and life.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-17, 09:01 PM   #1688
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Lt Ripley's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Llama School
Posts: 6,055
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Hey guys, I won't defend Jefferson anymore! Here is a couple pictures of minorities!!
__________________
Christian sinners, stealing the emotional well-being of homosexuals everywhere
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-17, 11:50 PM   #1689
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,713
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandoman View Post
But here's the thing - the policies he appears to advocate will certainly have the effect of punishing women for having sex, regardless of motivation. And that's wrong.
For that logic to work, one would have to maintain that laws preventing child abuse/homicide by mothers have the effect of punishing women for having children (and, assuming that they are the biological children of the women, also punish those women for having sex).

I don't believe that you would find those conclusions to be logical. I believe that you would agree that they are being punished for actions apart from having children/having sexual relations. That conclusion would agree with the wording of the laws.

(Two other factors:

1. Women don't have abortions every time they have intercourse for obvious biological reasons. Infertile women can have all the intercourse they want, and they never have abortions. It seems to follow that laws prohibiting abortions have a separate intent/motivation from laws regulating sexual behavior.

2. Many of the most ardent pro-life advocates are women who have very healthy, frequent, and active sexual aspects to their lives. They certainly do not seem to want to "punish" themselves for having sexual relations nor to curtail their sexual activity. )
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-17, 05:27 AM   #1690
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Indiana
Posts: 721
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vibiana View Post
Thanks for finally laying bare the fact that your objection to abortion is all about punishing women.
There's nothing there to say it's all about punishing women as opposed to saving the innocent life, half of which would grow up to be women if given the chance to live.

You've made statements like this before with no support. You've made claims like, pro-lifers are just men who want to control women. You do realize that women can be pro-life too?

What about women who have had abortions and now regret it and are pro-life? Are they just wanting to control and punish other women?
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-17, 07:07 AM   #1691
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Lt Ripley's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Llama School
Posts: 6,055
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Well, from listening to them, it appears they want to be left the fuck alone and to be able to make their own decisions.
__________________
Christian sinners, stealing the emotional well-being of homosexuals everywhere
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-17, 05:56 AM   #1692
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Indiana
Posts: 721
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Looks like Planned Parenthood pre-Roe v Wade acknowledged abortion kills a life.



http://www.faithwire.com/2017/05/18/...bout-abortion/
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-17, 06:10 AM   #1693
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Lt Ripley's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Llama School
Posts: 6,055
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

And look at the the scientific knowledge we have gained since 1952. Not hard to see the simple minded hang on to outdated science. They hang on ancient second hand mythology books just as easy.
__________________
Christian sinners, stealing the emotional well-being of homosexuals everywhere
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-17, 06:18 AM   #1694
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Indiana
Posts: 721
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Normally i don't respond to your posts, but since you said something semi-intelligible for once...

Yes, look at all the scientific knowledge we have gained since 1952. It all points to that is a life inside the mother.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-17, 06:26 AM   #1695
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Lt Ripley's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Llama School
Posts: 6,055
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Fungus is life. Talk to me when you can nail down the point in which a fetus has any comprehension at all about itself, let alone that it is being aborted.
__________________
Christian sinners, stealing the emotional well-being of homosexuals everywhere
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-17, 06:27 AM   #1696
DVD Talk Legend
 
Vibiana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Living in a van down by the river
Posts: 12,753
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

At best, it's a potential life, one that is dependent on the woman's willingness to carry it to term. It's her decision to make.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-17, 06:33 AM   #1697
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Indiana
Posts: 721
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vibiana View Post
At best, it's a potential life, one that is dependent on the woman's willingness to carry it to term. It's her decision to make.
Wow, "potential" life.

I asked before but got no response from you, but why do oppose abortions at 35 weeks? I believe that was the number you through out before. Why do oppose abortions at 35 weeks if it's not a life? And it's "none of our bleeping business?"
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-17, 06:35 AM   #1698
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Indiana
Posts: 721
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt Ripley View Post
Fungus is life. Talk to me when you can nail down the point in which a fetus has any comprehension at all about itself, let alone that it is being aborted.
Through science we have learned that babies in the womb can feel pain, so it may not "know' its being aborted, but it could feel it.

A newborn baby doesn't "know" if it's being neglected or thrown in a dumpster either. It does not have any comprehension about itself either. Does that make it not a life?
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-17, 06:36 AM   #1699
DVD Talk Legend
 
Vibiana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Living in a van down by the river
Posts: 12,753
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Ape Mafia View Post
Wow, "potential" life.

I asked before, but why do oppose abortions at 35 weeks? I believe that was the number you through out before. Why do oppose abortions at 35 weeks if it's not a life?
Find me a licensed physician who will perform a legal abortion at 35 weeks and we'll talk. That's what I told you before. At 35 weeks it's called an inducement of labor, not an abortion.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-17, 06:48 AM   #1700
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Indiana
Posts: 721
Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vibiana View Post
Find me a licensed physician who will perform a legal abortion at 35 weeks and we'll talk. That's what I told you before. At 35 weeks it's called an inducement of labor, not an abortion.
This is what you said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vibiana View Post

Life begins when you are born. Period. Now, go ahead and spin that to sound as if I believe abortion should be legal right up to the moment of birth...

So, I'm confused. When is your cut off for when you feel abortion should be illegal? And what are you basing it on?

I'm not asking if someone could find a physician or not. It sounds like you are saying that there is a time when its ok to end the life inside the mother.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:31 PM.


Copyright 2011 DVDTalk.com All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0