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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 01-25-16, 07:20 PM   #126
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Since you're choosing to post in an "abortion" thread, what's your stance on "choice" regarding abortion?
Bull-fucking-shit!

Until my last post, all my posts in this thread were in the election thread before they got moved here.
It all started with me saying Sarah Palin is crazy and then you, out of nowhere, apropos of nothing had to bring up PP and how they're just as crazy. It's like you have a disease and you have to knee-jerk your foot right into your mouth.

But hey, you've never been intellectually honest before, so why start now?

Last edited by slop101; 01-25-16 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 01-25-16, 08:18 PM   #127
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by Vibiana View Post
Let's clear this whole issue up once and for all.

Abortion is a woman's right and her choice to make, so unless you're the one pregnant, it's none of your fucking business.

Don't like abortion? Don't have one. Issue resolved.

/thread
Can't be repeated often enough.
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Old 01-25-16, 08:27 PM   #128
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by Vibiana View Post
Let's clear this whole issue up once and for all.

Abortion is a woman's right and her choice to make, so unless you're the one pregnant, it's none of your fucking business.

Don't like abortion? Don't have one. Issue resolved.

/thread
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Old 01-25-16, 08:29 PM   #129
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by Vibiana View Post
Can't be repeated often enough.
I agree with you quoting yourself.

And I don't say this often.
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Old 01-26-16, 05:54 AM   #130
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
And what is your point? That what a "scientist" thinks (your word) in offering an opinion regarding when human life magically becomes a "human being" is the same as established fact???? And you are so confident that "scientists" (apart from all others) would never allow their own personal biases to color their conclusions?

In that case, you ought to be able to clearly and succinctly explain how "science" would show that the fertilized human eggs, apart from natural or human intervention, are not the earliest stages of human life or belong to some other species. Because thousands of years of observation have proven otherwise.

I find it incredibly ironic that in an age in which technology can show the actual moment of conception which can be viewed by the naked human eye, the very people who rail against "superstition" and who tout the "I only believe what I can experience with my senses" continually deny the clear evidence provided by the very "science" they rely upon so heavily for their basic beliefs. It is bizarre to think that such people reject the scientific evidence in front of them.

I'll point you to an old adage which you may have heard growing up: "If everyone else jumps off a cliff, would you?" I hope you didn't answer, "I would if they were scientists."
My point was that you use "science" when it suits your needs, even if the science (and those who dedicate their lives to studying it) it disagree with you...

As for needing to explain it, no, not again. I've done it before, as have others. Movielib just did it in fact. My view is pretty much in line with what he posted. Logic and science points to that being the most reasonable answer to the question of when human life begins. But again, that wasn't my point to begin with...I was just pointing out the irony. The rest of what you posted is a nice strawman and belies your misunderstanding of how science works if you think science only tells us what "I can experience with my senses".

Or in other words, YOU back up the claim. Please tell me how "science" has determined that human life begins at conception? Because just reiterating what happens and that we now can see it does not answer the question. I can see individual sperm with the naked eye thanks to technology too, does that make it human life? What science are you using to back up your assertion?
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Old 01-26-16, 09:00 AM   #131
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
Bull-fucking-shit!

Until my last post, all my posts in this thread were in the election thread before they got moved here.
It all started with me saying Sarah Palin is crazy and then you, out of nowhere, apropos of nothing had to bring up PP and how they're just as crazy. It's like you have a disease and you have to knee-jerk your foot right into your mouth.

But hey, you've never been intellectually honest before, so why start now?
But now you're posting in a new thread...so your first sentence has no relevance to this thread.

Thank you for answering the actual question so eloquently and honestly. Great to see you exercise the courage of your convictions. And thank you for maintaining a civil tone in the discussion.

Originally Posted by creekdipper
Since you're choosing to post in an "abortion" thread, what's your stance on "choice" regarding abortion?

Last edited by creekdipper; 01-26-16 at 09:20 AM.
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Old 01-26-16, 09:15 AM   #132
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by dave-o View Post
My point was that you use "science" when it suits your needs, even if the science (and those who dedicate their lives to studying it) it disagree with you...

As for needing to explain it, no, not again. I've done it before, as have others. Movielib just did it in fact. My view is pretty much in line with what he posted. Logic and science points to that being the most reasonable answer to the question of when human life begins. But again, that wasn't my point to begin with...I was just pointing out the irony. The rest of what you posted is a nice strawman and belies your misunderstanding of how science works if you think science only tells us what "I can experience with my senses".

Or in other words, YOU back up the claim. Please tell me how "science" has determined that human life begins at conception? Because just reiterating what happens and that we now can see it does not answer the question. I can see individual sperm with the naked eye thanks to technology too, does that make it human life? What science are you using to back up your assertion?
Thanks for the question and providing the opportunity to clear up any confusion about what science amply demonstrates.

You DO believe in applying the scientific method, don't you?

The scientific method is an ongoing process, which usually begins with observations about the natural world. Human beings are naturally inquisitive, so they often come up with questions about things they see or hear and often develop ideas (hypotheses) about why things are the way they are.

Now, one can postulate what "human life" means. Cancer cells are alive. Sperm are alive. But are they "human life" in the way that most understand it (i.e., will they eventually develop into a sentient life form that very few would dispute constitutes a "human being"...although even that has not historically been agreed upon by practitioners of eugenics and long before that term was even invented). But, for the sake of argument, let's say that we both can agree on the general characteristics that define human beings...at least, after birth. I think we could probably agree on that.

Now...if a fertilized egg containing the DNA of both parents is allowed to develop normally, what will be the end result of the process?

Has not both science (in both the extremely technical aspects such as DNA analysis) and general observation (understandable to illiterate people who have never heard of "biology") proven conclusively that human life has taken place upon conception?

Again...if human life is not present, exactly what an abortion do? What happens if an abortion is not committed?

Conversely, what happens to all those millions of sperm produced by themselves?

An aside: You appear to be conflating facts uncovered by scientific inquiry with conclusions colored by personal biases. One scientist believes that once the process of life development has begun, a unique individual carrying the blueprint has been created. Another scientist dismisses that process and draws a line at brain development. How has "science" proved that either conclusion is correct? It's a matter of philosophy, not hard science.

The argument has been settled by science as to when human life begins. The "question" being debated is when a human being begins with personal rights and liberties.

It would be extremely foolish to argue from a scientific basis that a fertilized egg is neither alive nor human.

Last edited by creekdipper; 01-26-16 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 01-26-16, 09:18 AM   #133
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
I agree with you quoting yourself.

And I don't say this often.
So, Polizei, did you ever answer the question as to when human life begins and whether you support any legal restrictions upon abortion?
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Old 01-26-16, 09:24 AM   #134
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
tl:dr
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Old 01-26-16, 10:04 AM   #135
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
But now you're posting in a new thread...so your first sentence has no relevance to this thread.

Thank you for answering the actual question so eloquently and honestly. Great to see you exercise the courage of your convictions. And thank you for maintaining a civil tone in the discussion.

Originally Posted by creekdipper
Since you're choosing to post in an "abortion" thread, what's your stance on "choice" regarding abortion?
No, my posts got hijacked (raped, if you will) into this thread. And, within forum rules, I can post whatever the fuck I want. It's my choice. I'm not playing your stupid game.

You want a civil tone, earn it.
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Old 01-26-16, 10:16 AM   #136
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
...my posts got hijacked (raped, if you will) into this thread.
Who said something beautiful can't come from rape?
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Old 01-26-16, 10:18 AM   #137
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
One scientist believes that once the process of life development has begun, a unique individual carrying the blueprint has been created. Another scientist dismisses that process and draws a line at brain development. How has "science" proved that either conclusion is correct? It's a matter of philosophy, not hard science.
I think this is the answer to the question of why someone can be personally against abortion, but still want others to be able to make that choice. They realize that the fundamental question of "when does life begin" is really not answerable yet. They feel strongly about it, but recognize that others feel just as strongly about their position, and neither position can really be proven as the "correct" one.
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Old 01-26-16, 10:19 AM   #138
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
No, my posts got hijacked (raped, if you will) into this thread. And, within forum rules, I can post whatever the fuck I want. It's my choice. I'm not playing your stupid game.

You want a civil tone, earn it.
Aw, slop, everyone's posts were steered into this new thread.

And, yes, you certainly are free to post whatever you want. For instance, you can post that Palin is crazy.

And I can post that Planned Parenthood is worse than 'crazy' since their policies have actual fatal effects upon the lives of millions.

It would appear that the only way to 'earn' a civil tone from you (and here I thought forum members deserved a civil tone...silly old bear) is to agree with you. I don't ask that you agree with me, and I certainly didn't label your Palin post as "playing silly games" even though I do find the obsession with Palin from certain quarters to be quite remarkable given her lack of political influence these days.

But I was talking about your most recent posts in this new thread. You don't want to answer the questions that others have answered, fine...that's your prerogative. But evidently not all consider discussion of the topic to be a total waste of time. I consider all the constant Palin talk that keeps cropping up in political threads to be a waste of time, but I'm not going to insult posters or start cursing over it. Blood pressure medication...highly recommended!!

I suppose this means that I'll just have to be disappointed and somehow deal with getting a substantive response from you on the topic.

Last edited by creekdipper; 01-26-16 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 01-26-16, 10:25 AM   #139
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
Who said something beautiful can't come from rape?
Some very influential and beautiful people certainly have:

http://tinseltownmom.com/10-celebrit...d-out-of-rape/

Eartha Kitt, Layne Beachley, Jesse Jackson, Faith Daniels, Ethel Waters, etc....

And this less-well-known person, since you mentioned "beautiful":

http://tinseltownmom.com/wp-content/...4319856233.jpg
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Old 01-26-16, 10:26 AM   #140
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Now...if a fertilized egg containing the DNA of both parents is allowed to develop normally, what will be the end result of the process?
Now if a guy has sex with a woman when she is capable of conceiving, and whatever happens is allowed to happen normally, what will be the end result of the process?

See, you can run this logic back all the way to the act if you want.

Statistically, a baby will be born. Statistically. She could also have a miscarriage before ever knowing she was pregnant, or anywhere later in the process.

I don't think I have the average point of view. From my view, the statistical probability of a baby being born isn't a life and therefore doesn't trump the rights of the host...er...mother.

There's a gray area here that needs to balance the rights of the mother vs the rights of the (statistically likely) baby being born.

Cutoff for abortion in my opinion should be the point at which the fetus is possibly viable IMO. I wouldn't scream bloody murder at the 24 week basis either. With exceptions for the mother's life in danger.
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Last edited by GreenMonkey; 01-26-16 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 01-26-16, 10:37 AM   #141
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
The quotation marks are indicative of exactly what you describe in full detail. It is a comment on the use of "choice" as a euphemism (which is common parlance for activists and politicians who would prefer to avoid using the word "abortion").

But since you brought it up, it might be interesting to ask those who favor restrictions on abortions how they view the word choice...as in, after the time limits they favor, should such a choice be allowed?

Where do you stand on that issue? Should the choice to abort be absolute with no limitations? If so, how do you respond to the fact that abortion is legal up until the ___ fully emerges from the womb? If not, how do you respond to those who would apply limitations?
The choice in pro-choice does not refer to when abortions are performed.

I am pro-choice. I believe women should have the right to choose whether or not to have an abortion. Since abortions are currently legal, they have that option and it's up to them (not me and not you) to decide for themselves how to proceed.
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Old 01-26-16, 10:49 AM   #142
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by GreenMonkey View Post
Statistically, a baby will be born. Statistically. She could also have a miscarriage before ever knowing she was pregnant, or anywhere later in the process.
Point taken, but I think you'd agree that there is a big difference between being killed because a tree limb breaks off and falls on your head and someone stabbing you to death.

It's a matter of culpability. In the former case, I suppose people can blame fate, the universe, God, etc., but in the latter, an intentional human act has interfered with the life process.
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Old 01-26-16, 10:53 AM   #143
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
Who said something beautiful can't come from rape?
And my taxes have to pay for some unwanted kid, as well. WTF?!

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Old 01-26-16, 11:10 AM   #144
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by Draven View Post
The choice in pro-choice does not refer to when abortions are performed.

I am pro-choice. I believe women should have the right to choose whether or not to have an abortion. Since abortions are currently legal, they have that option and it's up to them (not me and not you) to decide for themselves how to proceed.
But what is the effect of your stance?

If you are say that you are pro-choice yet anti-abortion (i.e., you firmly believe that the act itself is morally wrong while still believing that it is immoral to force a woman to give birth), then you are choosing between the lesser of two evils.

Even if you say that abortion is not morally wrong up until a certain stage, after that stage you are still allowing someone to commit an act which you firmly believe to be immoral.

And the effect is exactly the same as those who are "pro-abortion" at ANY stage of development.

For those who Do find abortion to be an immoral choice at any stage of pregnancy, they should ask themselves WHY they feel that way; i.e., what happens during the abortion? If the answer is "an innocent human's life is being taken," then that is exactly what allowing the mother to exercise that choice accomplishes...it allows the mother to take the life of her innocent child.

For someone who is convinced that humans only become human beings with rights upon leaving the birth canal completely, this is not a problem. Until live birth...which can occur at different times...a person is not being aborted..."only" a fetus with no rights. The only other argument is to say that the rights of the fetus, baby, whatever, are subservient to the rights of the mother to end the life of the ___...even if the ___ being aborted is a fully-developed entity in every physical respect.

IMO, I see little difference in finding abortion to be morally wrong on the grounds that it takes an innocent human life while simultaneously being unwilling to interfere with the choice of others to take that life and attempting to be neutral on an issue in which "neutrality" is only an illusion. That's like saying, "I'm opposed to the death penalty but would never oppose the right of the state to execute prisoners." Or, if living in the 1850's, "I'm personally opposed to slavery as an immoral act but won't interfere with the rights of slave-owners." The only difference is that slaves COULD...and occasionally DID successfully...escape or fight back. And prisoners get stays of execution.

Fetuses can't fight back.

If a human being has the right to live without being "terminated" (the quotes are there because it is a euphemism for being killed), then the location of that human being should not have any bearing on the right of that human being to live. The constant refrain that "men will never have to know what it's like to be pregnant" is simply a statement about human biology. Men do not go through menopause, either, but what does that have to do with protecting human life? The implication is that men are so selfish that, if they only had to face an unintended or unwanted pregnancy, they would be leaping to support abortion. That not only is insulting to men, it ignores the vast numbers of women who are staunchly pro-life and the vast numbers of men who are only too happy to "get rid of" an unwanted nuisance...a convenience that has allowed men to prey upon women without commitments.

And we see the resulting breakdowns in families, particularly among the most poverty-stricken communities. My wife and I were in Knoxville, TN a couple of weeks ago and passed a Planned Parenthood building...located in one of the most economically-depressed areas in the city. She turned to me and commented, "No surprise that it's located here among the most vulnerable...and those most likely to be abandoned by men."

Last edited by creekdipper; 01-26-16 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 01-26-16, 11:19 AM   #145
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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But what is the effect of your stance?

If you are say that you are pro-choice yet anti-abortion (i.e., you firmly believe that the act itself is morally wrong while still believing that it is immoral to force a woman to give birth), then you are choosing between the lesser of two evils.
...
Can we label your side pro-womb-slavery?
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Old 01-26-16, 11:22 AM   #146
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by GreenMonkey View Post
Can we label your side pro-womb-slavery?
If the shoe fits....

Actually, we're against slavery from womb to tomb.
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Old 01-26-16, 11:57 AM   #147
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
It's a matter of philosophy, not hard science.

The argument has been settled by science as to when human life begins. The "question" being debated is when a human being begins with personal rights and liberties.

It would be extremely foolish to argue from a scientific basis that a fertilized egg is neither alive nor human.
This bolded part is exactly what I was driving at....

But then you go and contradict it with your very next sentence. You may think that science has settled when a human life begins, but that is a misunderstanding of what science actually can demonstrate. Science is very clear that life begins at conception, it says nothing about it being "human life". In fact, the best science seems to put the birth of human life at "brain birth". That is what the science says.

To answer another question you posed, about what happens after conception? Well, what happens in the vast majority of cases after conception is that the fertilized egg is naturally washed out of the women's body during her menstrual cycle (the simplified version anyways). That is a lot of "humans" killed. Far more than if all abortions were added up throughout history...
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Old 01-26-16, 12:03 PM   #148
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
For someone who is convinced that humans only become human beings with rights upon leaving the birth canal completely, this is not a problem. Until live birth...which can occur at different times...a person is not being aborted..."only" a fetus with no rights. The only other argument is to say that the rights of the fetus, baby, whatever, are subservient to the rights of the mother to end the life of the ___...even if the ___ being aborted is a fully-developed entity in every physical respect.
Are you really claiming all pro-choice people believe that either 1) a fetus isn't a person until its literally born or 2) a fetus's rights are subservient to the mother's to the point where it can be aborted at any stage?
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Old 01-26-16, 12:04 PM   #149
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
But what is the effect of your stance?

If you are say that you are pro-choice yet anti-abortion (i.e., you firmly believe that the act itself is morally wrong while still believing that it is immoral to force a woman to give birth), then you are choosing between the lesser of two evils.

Even if you say that abortion is not morally wrong up until a certain stage, after that stage you are still allowing someone to commit an act which you firmly believe to be immoral.

And the effect is exactly the same as those who are "pro-abortion" at ANY stage of development.

For those who Do find abortion to be an immoral choice at any stage of pregnancy, they should ask themselves WHY they feel that way; i.e., what happens during the abortion? If the answer is "an innocent human's life is being taken," then that is exactly what allowing the mother to exercise that choice accomplishes...it allows the mother to take the life of her innocent child.

For someone who is convinced that humans only become human beings with rights upon leaving the birth canal completely, this is not a problem. Until live birth...which can occur at different times...a person is not being aborted..."only" a fetus with no rights. The only other argument is to say that the rights of the fetus, baby, whatever, are subservient to the rights of the mother to end the life of the ___...even if the ___ being aborted is a fully-developed entity in every physical respect.

IMO, I see little difference in finding abortion to be morally wrong on the grounds that it takes an innocent human life while simultaneously being unwilling to interfere with the choice of others to take that life and attempting to be neutral on an issue in which "neutrality" is only an illusion. That's like saying, "I'm opposed to the death penalty but would never oppose the right of the state to execute prisoners." Or, if living in the 1850's, "I'm personally opposed to slavery as an immoral act but won't interfere with the rights of slave-owners." The only difference is that slaves COULD...and occasionally DID successfully...escape or fight back. And prisoners get stays of execution.

Fetuses can't fight back.

If a human being has the right to live without being "terminated" (the quotes are there because it is a euphemism for being killed), then the location of that human being should not have any bearing on the right of that human being to live. The constant refrain that "men will never have to know what it's like to be pregnant" is simply a statement about human biology. Men do not go through menopause, either, but what does that have to do with protecting human life? The implication is that men are so selfish that, if they only had to face an unintended or unwanted pregnancy, they would be leaping to support abortion. That not only is insulting to men, it ignores the vast numbers of women who are staunchly pro-life and the vast numbers of men who are only too happy to "get rid of" an unwanted nuisance...a convenience that has allowed men to prey upon women without commitments.

And we see the resulting breakdowns in families, particularly among the most poverty-stricken communities. My wife and I were in Knoxville, TN a couple of weeks ago and passed a Planned Parenthood building...located in one of the most economically-depressed areas in the city. She turned to me and commented, "No surprise that it's located here among the most vulnerable...and those most likely to be abandoned by men."
A question for you...do you believe that when a women's life is in jeopardy, an abortion is morally okay?
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Old 01-26-16, 12:11 PM   #150
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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But what is the effect of your stance?

If you are say that you are pro-choice yet anti-abortion (i.e., you firmly believe that the act itself is morally wrong while still believing that it is immoral to force a woman to give birth), then you are choosing between the lesser of two evils.

Even if you say that abortion is not morally wrong up until a certain stage, after that stage you are still allowing someone to commit an act which you firmly believe to be immoral.
I don't think it's immoral to abort a fetus before brain birth. That's the point where I feel like the cake has become a cake and not a pile of ingredients.

And regardless of my feelings, women are the ones that actually have to do everything with regards to pregnancy, so I remain in the camp that they should get to choose what that means.

Your stance leads us back to "pregnancy prisons" where women are chained to their beds until they deliver, even if they wanted an abortion after just a few weeks of pregnancy.
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