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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 11-13-15, 12:15 PM   #1
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The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

Since we have multiple active threads for this issue right now, I figure we should have a single catchall thread. So to start, here's the latest outrage from the University of Missouri:

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A state lawmaker wants to stop a graduate student at the University of Missouri from continuing research for her dissertation on the impact of a 72-hour waiting period on women considering abortions.

Missouri state Sen. Kurt Schaefer (R-Columbia) claimed in a letter to the university chancellor dated Oct. 30 that the university is breaking the law by allowing the student to carry out her research. The grad student is studying a recently imposed law requiring women in Missouri to wait 72 hours between the time they seek information about an abortion and the point at which they have the procedure.

It's the latest in an ongoing battle between state lawmakers and the university over its relationship to Planned Parenthood. A decision by the university in September to cancel 10 contracts with Planned Parenthood helped fuel recent protests on campus that led to the ouster of the university system's president and the flagship campus' chancellor.

Schaefer is chairman of the Missouri senate's interim Committee on the Sanctity of Life and a GOP candidate for state attorney general. The state senate began investigating Mizzou's ties to Planned Parenthood this year after an anti-abortion group released heavily edited videos purporting to show that the women's health clinics were selling aborted fetal tissue. No evidence has emerged to prove this assertion; rather, some Planned Parenthood clinics request the reimbursement for the cost of delivering tissue to be used for medical research.

The university canceled 10 contracts with Planned Parenthood in September amid the investigation. That eliminated the opportunity for medical students to do clinical rotations that would help them learn how to provide surgical abortions and place long-acting contraception methods. The university's nursing school later signed agreements with two Planned Parenthood clinics in October that included clauses prohibiting students from helping provide abortions.

The graduate student's research, Schaefer insists, is a "marketing aid" for Planned Parenthood using taxpayer dollars. Missouri law prohibits state employees from using tax dollars to encourage a woman to have an abortion that is "not necessary to save her life." But defenders of the study say Schaefer's suggestion the school shouldn't be able to conduct this research is a threat to academic freedom.

The university is "well aware" of the law forbidding tax dollars to be used for encouraging abortions, MU spokeswoman Mary Jo Banken said, but that's not what the student is doing -- and she does not receive any scholarships or grant money from the university anyway.

"As the state's research, land-grant institution, we must stay committed to the discovery, dissemination, application and preservation of knowledge to support our mission while abiding by state and federal laws," Banken said in a statement. "We will continue performing life-saving research in our laboratories while providing the highest quality of educational opportunities to our students."

The study was approved by the university's institutional review board, a standard procedure for any research involving human subjects. According to university sources, there was no pushback from the IRB, and no funding from the university is going into the study.

Part of Schaefer's complaint about the 72-hour waiting period study is that the student's supervisor, Marjorie Sable, is a member of the Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri Board of Directors. The grad student is a Ph.D. candidate in the School of Social Work, of which Sable is a director.

"It is difficult to understand how a research study approved by the University, conducted by a University student, and over seen by the Director of the School of Social Work at the University can be perceived as anything but an expenditure of public funds to aid in Planned Parenthood in improving 'its services to better meet the needs of women seeking abortions' in clear violation of Missouri law," Schaefer wrote.

However, Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri is calling on the university to "remain stalwart in the face of political interference with academic freedom."

Laura McQuade, president and CEO of the regional office, said in a statement that Mizzou's chancellor should "act in the interest of students and his community, not politicians advancing their careers at MU's expense."

A liberal group, Progress Missouri, has also circulated a video showing the lawmaker stating multiple times while in office that "academic decisions should be made by academics ... not by politicians."

Schaefer did not respond to multiple requests for comment. He demanded documents and emails relating to the study to be turned over to his office by Nov. 6.
Political correctness run amok. College campuses must be bastions for free inquiry and expression, not mouthpieces for whatever message the state approves.
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Old 11-13-15, 12:27 PM   #2
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

Jesus Fucking Christ. We have enough problems with Liberals enforcing their loving, feeling, caring emails to trees and making every minority believe they are opporessed and now we have public officials like Kim Davis and this fuckwad Sen. Kurt Schaefer (R-Columbia) legislating I Am Enforicing God's Laws And You Will Obey! shit.

Extremist Republicans want an end to Planned Parenthood, just like Liberals want to do away guns entirely.

In the end, the public loses on both fronts.

We need a Poop American Flag, because this country is becoming nothing but shit being thrown at citizens from both sides.

Maybe Kurt needs to take a closer look at religious organization exemptions in this country that use taxpayer dollars to further their messages.

Liberals need to start hammering back at religious organizations and targeting them for inappropriate use of the tax exemption.
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Old 11-13-15, 12:34 PM   #3
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Liberals need to start hammering back at religious organizations and targeting them for inappropriate use of the tax exemption.
I agree with most everything you said, but think that Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson would disagree with that last part.
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Old 11-13-15, 01:19 PM   #4
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

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Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post

Political correctness run amok. College campuses must be bastions for free inquiry and expression, not mouthpieces for whatever message the state approves.
What imaginary hypocrites are you arguing with here? You know that pro-choice speech is correct speech that must be protected. It's only wrong speech that we need to eliminate.
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Old 11-13-15, 02:42 PM   #5
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

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What imaginary hypocrites are you arguing with here? You know that pro-choice speech is correct speech that must be protected. It's only wrong speech that we need to eliminate.
So you're claiming the study would be suppressed and the student would be denied her Ph.D. if her thesis came to a conclusion that didn't support Planned Parenthood?
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Old 11-13-15, 02:51 PM   #6
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

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So you're claiming the study would be suppressed and the student would be denied her Ph.D. if her thesis came to a conclusion that didn't support Planned Parenthood?
I'm against restrictions on speech/academic freedom across the board.
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Old 11-13-15, 04:31 PM   #7
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

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Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
Part of Schaefer's complaint about the 72-hour waiting period study is that the student's supervisor, Marjorie Sable, is a member of the Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri Board of Directors. The grad student is a Ph.D. candidate in the School of Social Work, of which Sable is a director.

"It is difficult to understand how a research study approved by the University, conducted by a University student, and over seen by the Director of the School of Social Work at the University can be perceived as anything but an expenditure of public funds to aid in Planned Parenthood in improving 'its services to better meet the needs of women seeking abortions' in clear violation of Missouri law," Schaefer wrote.

Perhaps the student could continue their research, but with a different supervisor?
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Old 11-16-15, 11:51 AM   #8
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

This article fits nicely here. While I do not agree with everything in this article (particularly it's over-reliance on the use of extreme anecdotes), I do find that some of the basic points are sound. As someone who works on a college campus in the mental health field, I think this is at least worth an honest discussion...

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...n-mind/399356/
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Old 11-16-15, 12:23 PM   #9
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

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Originally Posted by dave-o View Post
This article fits nicely here. While I do not agree with everything in this article (particularly it's over-reliance on the use of extreme anecdotes), I do find that some of the basic points are sound. As someone who works on a college campus in the mental health field, I think this is at least worth an honest discussion...

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...n-mind/399356/
Very interesting article.

An anecdote, divorced from academia: my ex was a victim of sexual abuse when she was a child. Years later, when she was an adult, we went to see the movie Se7en. For those who haven't seen it, the movie is about a serial killer who selects his victims and uses methods based on the seven deadly sins. At one point, there is a pretty graphic description of the lust killing. That upset my ex so much she had to leave the theater and had nightmares for some time afterwards.

When I think of trigger warnings, that's what comes to mind for me. And I think I legitimately would have wanted to know "Hey, this movie has a pretty graphic description of sexual abuse in it; don't go if you can't handle it."

But where do you draw the line between that and "We can't pet a camle because camels are associated with the Middle East and someone might be offended" or "We can't study the great works of literature because some of the characters were racist or misogynist (as was the culture at the time the works were created)." It's one thing to say "Hey, this particular person might not want to go see this particular movie" but it's quite another to say "Let's remove the movie from campus altogehter because someone out there might be upset by it."
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Old 11-16-15, 12:24 PM   #10
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

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Perhaps the student could continue their research, but with a different supervisor?
Shouldn't the student be allowed to finish their study under her current supervisor before any challenges are made to it? She might find out that the waiting period is a good thing.

The automatic assumption seems to be that she's going to find out it's not worth it. But if the lawmakers are confident in their decision, they should welcome the scrutiny.
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Old 11-16-15, 12:46 PM   #11
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

You didn't need to be a rape survivor to be scared out of the theater by that scene from Seven. A lot of people fled from that scene. It's one of the most disturbing scenes in all of cinema.
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Old 11-16-15, 12:52 PM   #12
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

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Very interesting article.

An anecdote, divorced from academia: my ex was a victim of sexual abuse when she was a child. Years later, when she was an adult, we went to see the movie Se7en. For those who haven't seen it, the movie is about a serial killer who selects his victims and uses methods based on the seven deadly sins. At one point, there is a pretty graphic description of the lust killing. That upset my ex so much she had to leave the theater and had nightmares for some time afterwards.

When I think of trigger warnings, that's what comes to mind for me. And I think I legitimately would have wanted to know "Hey, this movie has a pretty graphic description of sexual abuse in it; don't go if you can't handle it."

But where do you draw the line between that and "We can't pet a camle because camels are associated with the Middle East and someone might be offended" or "We can't study the great works of literature because some of the characters were racist or misogynist (as was the culture at the time the works were created)." It's one thing to say "Hey, this particular person might not want to go see this particular movie" but it's quite another to say "Let's remove the movie from campus altogehter because someone out there might be upset by it."
Yes, I think there is definitely a healthy balance somewhere between the extremes. I found the part about the "disinvitation season" interesting. My experience, working at a college campus, is that the vast majority of the time that these warnings are used, they are appropriate and helpful. However, if some of the side effects are that professors are scared to teach, that is very concerning.
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Old 11-16-15, 01:16 PM   #13
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

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Yes, I think there is definitely a healthy balance somewhere between the extremes. I found the part about the "disinvitation season" interesting. My experience, working at a college campus, is that the vast majority of the time that these warnings are used, they are appropriate and helpful. However, if some of the side effects are that professors are scared to teach, that is very concerning.
Agreed on all counts.

As for "disinvitation season," it's interesting. I think we all agree that it would be inappropriate to invite (were they alive) Hitler or Stalin as a graduation speaker. If you told me that some school somewhere had secured Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi as their graduation speaker, I'd be right there protesting his invitation with everyone else. So there must be limits. But where are those limits? It's no secret I think Condoleeza Rice did enormous damage to this country and the world as Secretary of State. But she absolutely should be a valid choice for a graduation speaker -- and, in fact, if I heard she were speaking, I'd want to attend, to hear what she has to say, even though I know I'm almost certainly not going to walk away agreeing with her.

But how do you draw lines that say it's OK to protest the invitation of the truly horrible people but not the people we just disagree with, even if we think those people we disagree with are doing a great deal of damage to the world.

I don't think this is an area that lends itself to bright line rules, and we as a society tend not to do well with things that require judgment and behaving with good faith and open mindedness to other perspectives.
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Old 11-16-15, 03:14 PM   #14
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

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Extremist Republicans want an end to Planned Parenthood, just like Liberals want to do away guns entirely.
I wish liberals had as much cahonies as Pro Life extremists and their were states in the Union where there was only 1 gun shop and they made people jump through hoops to buy guns.
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Old 11-16-15, 03:15 PM   #15
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

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and they made people jump through hoops to buy guns.
I would watch that.
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Old 11-16-15, 05:25 PM   #16
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

While some students at Dartmouth University were trying go study and do their homework in the school library, other students interrupted them by repeatedly shouting "Black lives matter!"

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Old 11-16-15, 05:26 PM   #17
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

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Shouldn't the student be allowed to finish their study under her current supervisor before any challenges are made to it? She might find out that the waiting period is a good thing.

The automatic assumption seems to be that she's going to find out it's not worth it. But if the lawmakers are confident in their decision, they should welcome the scrutiny.
Yes.
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Old 11-16-15, 05:28 PM   #18
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

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You didn't need to be a rape survivor to be scared out of the theater by that scene from Seven. A lot of people fled from that scene. It's one of the most disturbing scenes in all of cinema.
I thought the movie should have been rated NC-17.
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Old 11-16-15, 09:39 PM   #19
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

It's all implicit. You barely see anything. It won its "R" on a technicality. Meanwhile it's the better filmmaker who can do it implicitly. What's in the mind is always scarier.
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Old 11-16-15, 09:58 PM   #20
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

I guess it's somewhat comforting to know that at least some of these brats are 100+K in debt (with their parents foolishly co-signing and putting their house in jeopardy) and it will haunt them for decades to come.
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Old 11-17-15, 06:21 AM   #21
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

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I guess it's somewhat comforting to know that at least some of these brats are 100+K in debt (with their parents foolishly co-signing and putting their house in jeopardy) and it will haunt them for decades to come.
They're counting on The Bernald to wipe out their debt.
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Old 11-17-15, 07:47 AM   #22
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

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They're counting on The Bernald to wipe out their debt.
He's never even suggested that he is for debt forgiveness for existing debt, only that public colleges should be tuition free going forward. But, people are stupid and will believe what they want to believe.

This week there was a protest against high student debt at the school my son attends. The kids were complaining that they incurred high debt for a degree without any guarantee of a job that would pay them enough to pay off that debt and actually have a life. I certainly have sympathy with young people who have no ability to attend college without borrowing heavily, but it's not like they didn't know going in that they were going to be in debt.
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Old 11-18-15, 07:54 AM   #23
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

Uh oh. If you want to honor the thousands of people who were murdered in the 9-11 attacks, you are "Islamaphobic."


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-islamophobia/

U. Minnesota student government rejects annual recognition of 9/11, citing in part “potential perpetuation of Islamophobia”

November 15, 2015

An article by Kasey Carpenter (in the Minnesota Republic, a student paper) broke this story, and reports:

Quote:
On Tuesday, November 10, the Minnesota Student Association (MSA) — the undergraduate student government at the University of Minnesota-Twin Cities (UMN) — rejected a resolution for a moment of recognition on future anniversaries of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks….

At-large MSA representative and Director of Diversity and Inclusion David Algadi voiced severe criticism of the resolution….
Ms. Carpenter and her editor kindly shared with me a copy of the e-mails that Mr. Algadi sent to them in response to their queries. In the second, he “summarize[d]” his position as “I am well aware that 9/11 was a devastating tragedy but I am also fearful for the welfare of our Muslim and Middle Eastern students on campus, of which I identify with.” And his first explained (some paragraph breaks added, emphases in original):

Quote:
Thank you for reaching out. I was very passionate in my opposition to this resolution and here is why.

First off, I want to say that 9/11 is and always will be a tragedy. I can recognize that. But I think that we need to permit ourselves to dig deeper than just this.

9/11 is often used as reasoning for Islamophobia that takes both physical and verbal forms. The passing of this resolution might make a space that is unsafe for students on campus even more unsafe. Islamophobia and racism … are alive and well. I just don’t think that we can act like something like a moment of silence for 9/11 would exist in a vacuum when worldwide, Muslim and Middle Eastern folks undergo intense acts of terrorism around the 11th of September each year, and have since 2001.

In addition there is a particular racial politic present wherein when folks of color do something it becomes a stereotype, when white folks do something it becomes forgotten. Dylann Roof? James Eagan Holmes? Joseph Stack? Timothy McVeigh? When will we start having moments of silence for all of the times white folks have done something terrible?
Seems to me that an organized, coordinated act of war by a foreign entity against the United States, which kills 3000 people — the only such massive act of war to touch U.S. soil in the lives of most Americans — is somewhat different than even what Timothy McVeigh did. But I leave it to our readers to decide for themselves.

Here’s the Minnesota Student Association’s explanation of the result, which came after the story hit the news:

Quote:
At the November 10th meeting of the Minnesota Student Association’s Forum, a resolution calling for an annual moment of recognition on September 11th failed to pass by a margin of 23-36-3. This resolution was presented to our legislative body, and their votes represent a separate branch from our Executive Board.

Much of the coverage of this resolution has revolved around the discussion of the potential perpetuation of Islamophobia. While this was certainly a valid and unanswered concern of the body, much of the discussion in Forum on this resolution also revolved around the logistics of how a moment of recognition could be implemented on a college campus of thousands and the lack of requested research on if and how this is executed on other campuses. There had been suggestions made in committee meetings during the prior week on research and execution steps, but none were included in the version presented to Forum.

There were many Forum members that voiced support for holding a moment of recognition for the victims of 9/11, but given the brevity of the resolution and lack of action steps, they didn’t know how this could be done. The author did not have answers for these questions, and given that a resolution in this body is inherently a call for action, many members were dissatisfied by the lack of action attached to such an important topic.

MSA’s Speaker of the Forum and President have already reached out to the author and would be happy to work with him on crafting a resolution to be re-presented at the next Forum.
I likewise leave it to our readers to consider the merits of this explanation. The Minnesota Republic story also notes that many people in the MSA supported the resolution, and of course the vote reflects that, though ultimately — at least when the initial vote took place — they were unable to persuade a majority of their colleagues.
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Old 11-18-15, 10:31 AM   #24
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

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U. Minnesota student government rejects annual recognition of 9/11, citing in part “potential perpetuation of Islamophobia”

November 15, 2015
Why would you have a moment of silence for 11 September in November?

In any case, it's been fourteen years. The kids Bush was reading My Pet Goat to have graduated college. These guys were probably watching Elmo when the attacks happened. At a certain point you've gotta move on. We don't have a moment of silence for JFK every November, or Pearl Harbor in December. How long are we supposed to do it for 11 September?
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Old 11-18-15, 11:37 AM   #25
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Re: The War for Free Expression at College: The One & Only Megathread

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Why would you have a moment of silence for 11 September in November?
Where did you read that they wanted the moment of silence to take place in November?
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