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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 10-02-15, 03:30 PM   #1
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You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Reading previous threads, usually about shootings, yields comments from all sides.

Some people run around like chicken little saying "we must do something" and don't follow up, or make what are perceived as ill informed suggestions. There is usually a call for "common sense gun laws" and an air of hostility on both sides of this issue. Perhaps this can be a thread where specifics can be discussed. where people can articulate exactly what they mean and what they feel are needed changes in the current gun laws and those suggestions can be examined and facts brought into the conversation.

i guess i want this to be a thread that educates and clarifies. as an example, i see lots of comments about automatic weapons being used in mass shootings. From my understanding it is actually rather difficult to obtain "automatic weapons" in the us. i will then look up and copy exactly what federal law requires to own a fully automatic weapon so we can all continue actually talking about this issue.

someone says "i think all weapons of this type should be confiscated." then the exact amount of that weapon can be researched and cited. the discussion can then proceed with how one would say round up 25 million ar-15 type rifles in private hands.

i think there should be background checks, or "close the gun show loophole" articulate what you mean by gun show loophole and cite the relevant laws as they pertain to background checks either federally or for your state.

i hope this can be a thread where not only data can be discussed, but the source of that data and possible biases both pro and con guns by the creator of the data examined.
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Old 10-02-15, 04:09 PM   #2
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Yep. It is indeed frustrating seeing all the posts from people that feel the US needs to do this or that, that obviously have no idea what they are talking about. The sheer level of ignorance in those kinds of threads is staggering. Seems to be par for the course in this debate. The gun rights supporters obviously know what they are talking about with regards to firearm terminology and definitions, and the anti gun whackadoos are generally talking out of their asses and apparently refuse to even learn the basic terms.
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Last edited by jjcool; 10-02-15 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 10-02-15, 04:32 PM   #3
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjcool View Post
The gun rights supporters obviously know what they are talking about, and the anti gun whackadoos are generally talking out of their asses.
It certainly looks like you are coming at this discussion from an unbiased perspective.

I must be "whackadoo" because I think it's a little too easy to get your hands on a weapon designed solely to kill other people. That doesn't seem like an extreme position to me. Yet, now I'm a "whackadoo".

Guess we just have to accept that every few weeks, a chunk of us will die from a mass shooting. Nothing more to be done, right?
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Old 10-02-15, 04:33 PM   #4
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjcool View Post
Yep. It is indeed frustrating seeing all the posts from people that feel the US needs to do this or that, that obviously have no idea what they are talking about. The sheer level of ignorance in those kinds of threads is staggering. Seems to be par for the course in this debate. The gun rights supporters obviously know what they are talking about, and the anti gun whackadoos are generally talking out of their asses.
Is this for real?
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Old 10-02-15, 04:34 PM   #5
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

So, our mission:

Getting weapons out of the hands of people who are formulating plans to mass murder.

Is that a fair assessment of the question.
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Old 10-02-15, 04:37 PM   #6
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

I thought we solved all gun related issues in the other threads?
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Old 10-02-15, 04:40 PM   #7
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by Draven View Post
It certainly looks like you are coming at this discussion from an unbiased perspective.
Right back at you.
I was simply speaking specifically about firearms and related terminology and definitions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven View Post
I must be "whackadoo" because I think it's a little too easy to get your hands on a weapon designed solely to kill other people. That doesn't seem like an extreme position to me. Yet, now I'm a "whackadoo".
Considering the opposite is a "gun nut", and given the level of knowledge in your average anti gun whackadoo, I would say the name is fitting to many of them. Surely there are no other uses for a firearm than to "kill other people", right? And exactly how is it "a little too easy" to legally get your hands on a firearm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven View Post
Guess we just have to accept that every few weeks, a chunk of us will die from a mass shooting. Nothing more to be done, right?
I would say how about we start enforcing laws that are already on the books. How about we take a good long look at mental health issues in this country. How about we pull our heads out of the sand and actually look at where these mass killings are actually taking place and see if we can come up with any similarities between the locales or the perpetrators.
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Old 10-02-15, 04:42 PM   #8
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by cungar View Post
Is this for real?
Of course.
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Old 10-02-15, 04:49 PM   #9
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjcool View Post
And exactly how is it "a little too easy" to legally get your hands on a firearm?

The guy in Oregon had 13 guns. 6 with him and 7 at home. Seems like this ( to borrow your term) wackadoo had no problem building up an arsenal Ted Nugent would be proud of. He's 26 and he already had 13 guns. Sounds like it's real hard to get guns in this country.
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Old 10-02-15, 04:54 PM   #10
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

He wasn't committing crimes back then.

Just an FYI.

For real.
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Old 10-02-15, 05:08 PM   #11
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by cungar View Post
The guy in Oregon had 13 guns. 6 with him and 7 at home. Seems like this ( to borrow your term) wackadoo had no problem building up an arsenal Ted Nugent would be proud of. He's 26 and he already had 13 guns. Sounds like it's real hard to get guns in this country.
Well the news is reporting that not all the weapons were obtained by him. They are saying him and "other family members".

I don't get the whole gun thing. I've never owned one and I never plan to.

With fingerprint technology today you'd think they'd make a gun that can only be fired by the registered owner kinda like Judge Dredd...
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Old 10-02-15, 05:15 PM   #12
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Great so his relatives were helping this confused shitbag compile his lovely little arsenal. Nothing like a supportive family.
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Old 10-02-15, 05:21 PM   #13
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

when people speak about concerns Re: the "government taking their guns" this may be a short encapsulation on what may prompt that concern

"New York City has experience in this arena. In the mid-1960s, street crime was rising rapidly there as in most of the rest of the nation. The people who were perpetrating muggings in Central Park and robbing liquor stores in Queens were not the decent, law-abiding gun owners of New York City. Nevertheless, the New York City Council and anti-gun Mayor John Lindsay enacted long gun registration. The per-gun fee was just a few dollars. The politicians promised that gun registration could help solve crimes and, even if it didn’t, registration was harmless. After all, it was just registering guns, not confiscating them.

As registration did nothing to solve crime or stop criminal use of guns, crime continued to get worse in the city. So in 1991, with the city becoming increasingly unlivable, Mayor David Dinkins attempted to make himself think he was tough on crime, this time by pressuring the City Council to enact a ban on so-called “assault weapons” (such as the M1 carbine).

After that, the New York state police used registration lists to conduct home inspections of every individual whose registered gun had been outlawed. The police were ensuring that the registered guns had been moved out of the city or already surrendered to the government.

Gun confiscation is much easier if guns have first been registered. Pete Shields, past president of the Brady Campaign, explained in 1977, “The first problem is to slow down the number of handguns being produced and sold in this country. The second problem is to get handguns registered. The final problem is to make possession of all handguns and all handgun ammunition—except for the military, police, licensed security guards, licensed sporting clubs and licensed gun collectors—totally illegal.” (Richard Harris, A Reporter at Large: Handguns, The New Yorker, July 26, 1976, p. 58.) (At the time, Shields’ group was called the National Council to Control Handguns. It later changed its name to Handgun Control, Inc., then later changed it again to the Brady Campaign.)"

the fee currently for long guns is
"The application fee is $140.00. The fingerprint fee is $89.75. You may pay the fees with a credit card or two POSTAL MONEY ORDERS, BANK TELLER’S CHECKS OR CERTIFIED CHECKS. Cash is not accepted. Please make your money orders or checks payable to the “New York City Police Department.” No personal checks will be accepted."

"How much does it cost to apply for a handgun license?

The application fee for a handgun license is $340.00. Effective March 9, 2012, the fee for fingerprints is $91.50. These fees may be paid by credit card or with money orders when you submit your application. Money orders should be made payable to the “New York City Police Department.”

i think some people take exception with the above amounts and how they differ from the "small fee" originally cited. if i recall the fees apply every three years when you renew a pistol and long gun permit.

"http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2012/01/the_origin_of_t.php"
Even as first enacted, in 1911, it was nothing like what we see today. It required some dealer paperwork, but not registration. There was no provision forbidding open carry. It applied only to handguns. The permits were "may issue" to the max -- as in a felony could get one, if the judge allowed it. (The only bars were to juveniles and non-citizens_/

"http://patricksperry.com/2009/06/27/the-sullivan-act-some-history-about-gun-control/"

this was a few moments googling. people may want to research the origins of gun control laws, specifically in the post civil war era and the origins of the Sullivan act.


this is a more complicated discussion than either side may want to admit.
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Old 10-02-15, 05:26 PM   #14
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Great so his relatives were helping this confused shitbag compile his lovely little arsenal. Nothing like a supportive family.
Yes, let's lock up friends and relatives!

Statistically we will be safer when everyone is in prison.
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Old 10-02-15, 05:26 PM   #15
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by cungar View Post
The guy in Oregon had 13 guns. 6 with him and 7 at home. Seems like this ( to borrow your term) wackadoo had no problem building up an arsenal Ted Nugent would be proud of. He's 26 and he already had 13 guns. Sounds like it's real hard to get guns in this country.
I had not seen that report. Last I saw on the news was that he had two guns with him. Are you attempting to say that anyone can get a gun through legal means, easily?
And yes, he was a wackadoo. Obviously anyone that would be willing to murder so many people is not right in the head, and thus, a wackadoo.
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Old 10-02-15, 05:30 PM   #16
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ropes Pierre View Post
when people speak about concerns Re: the "government taking their guns" this may be a short encapsulation on what may prompt that concern

"New York City has experience in this arena. In the mid-1960s, street crime was rising rapidly there as in most of the rest of the nation. The people who were perpetrating muggings in Central Park and robbing liquor stores in Queens were not the decent, law-abiding gun owners of New York City. Nevertheless, the New York City Council and anti-gun Mayor John Lindsay enacted long gun registration. The per-gun fee was just a few dollars. The politicians promised that gun registration could help solve crimes and, even if it didn’t, registration was harmless. After all, it was just registering guns, not confiscating them.

As registration did nothing to solve crime or stop criminal use of guns, crime continued to get worse in the city. So in 1991, with the city becoming increasingly unlivable, Mayor David Dinkins attempted to make himself think he was tough on crime, this time by pressuring the City Council to enact a ban on so-called “assault weapons” (such as the M1 carbine).

After that, the New York state police used registration lists to conduct home inspections of every individual whose registered gun had been outlawed. The police were ensuring that the registered guns had been moved out of the city or already surrendered to the government.

Gun confiscation is much easier if guns have first been registered. Pete Shields, past president of the Brady Campaign, explained in 1977, “The first problem is to slow down the number of handguns being produced and sold in this country. The second problem is to get handguns registered. The final problem is to make possession of all handguns and all handgun ammunition—except for the military, police, licensed security guards, licensed sporting clubs and licensed gun collectors—totally illegal.” (Richard Harris, A Reporter at Large: Handguns, The New Yorker, July 26, 1976, p. 58.) (At the time, Shields’ group was called the National Council to Control Handguns. It later changed its name to Handgun Control, Inc., then later changed it again to the Brady Campaign.)"

the fee currently for long guns is
"The application fee is $140.00. The fingerprint fee is $89.75. You may pay the fees with a credit card or two POSTAL MONEY ORDERS, BANK TELLER’S CHECKS OR CERTIFIED CHECKS. Cash is not accepted. Please make your money orders or checks payable to the “New York City Police Department.” No personal checks will be accepted."

"How much does it cost to apply for a handgun license?

The application fee for a handgun license is $340.00. Effective March 9, 2012, the fee for fingerprints is $91.50. These fees may be paid by credit card or with money orders when you submit your application. Money orders should be made payable to the “New York City Police Department.”

i think some people take exception with the above amounts and how they differ from the "small fee" originally cited. if i recall the fees apply every three years when you renew a pistol and long gun permit.

"http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2012/01/the_origin_of_t.php"
Even as first enacted, in 1911, it was nothing like what we see today. It required some dealer paperwork, but not registration. There was no provision forbidding open carry. It applied only to handguns. The permits were "may issue" to the max -- as in a felony could get one, if the judge allowed it. (The only bars were to juveniles and non-citizens_/

"http://patricksperry.com/2009/06/27/the-sullivan-act-some-history-about-gun-control/"

this was a few moments googling. people may want to research the origins of gun control laws, specifically in the post civil war era and the origins of the Sullivan act.


this is a more complicated discussion than either side may want to admit.
Definitely complicated.

Does anyone who is for more gun regulation...seen a form 7743. (EDIT: Should be Form 4473!)

And if so, your thoughts.

Last edited by DVD Polizei; 10-20-15 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 10-02-15, 05:38 PM   #17
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ropes Pierre View Post
Reading previous threads, usually about shootings, yields comments from all sides.

Some people run around like chicken little saying "we must do something" and don't follow up, or make what are perceived as ill informed suggestions. There is usually a call for "common sense gun laws" and an air of hostility on both sides of this issue. Perhaps this can be a thread where specifics can be discussed. where people can articulate exactly what they mean and what they feel are needed changes in the current gun laws and those suggestions can be examined and facts brought into the conversation.

i guess i want this to be a thread that educates and clarifies. as an example, i see lots of comments about automatic weapons being used in mass shootings. From my understanding it is actually rather difficult to obtain "automatic weapons" in the us. i will then look up and copy exactly what federal law requires to own a fully automatic weapon so we can all continue actually talking about this issue.

someone says "i think all weapons of this type should be confiscated." then the exact amount of that weapon can be researched and cited. the discussion can then proceed with how one would say round up 25 million ar-15 type rifles in private hands.

i think there should be background checks, or "close the gun show loophole" articulate what you mean by gun show loophole and cite the relevant laws as they pertain to background checks either federally or for your state.

i hope this can be a thread where not only data can be discussed, but the source of that data and possible biases both pro and con guns by the creator of the data examined.
I respectfully suggest that the OP offer a counterpart to this statement from the other side. If this thread is intended as a balanced discussion, that would better set the tone from the start. Not to mention all your examples are from the gun-control side that you say should be defended and backed up.

Thanks for considering.
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Old 10-02-15, 05:48 PM   #18
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Yes, let's lock up friends and relatives!

Statistically we will be safer when everyone is in prison.
Yeah that's just what I said
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Old 10-02-15, 05:49 PM   #19
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by davidh777 View Post
If this thread is intended as a balanced discussion,
LOL.

This thread is, nay, can only be, an excuse for each side to insult the other. Over and over again.

With that in mind, here's an article about how the NRA used to be in favor of gun control.

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/14/the_...d_gun_control/
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Old 10-02-15, 05:52 PM   #20
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by Jason View Post
LOL.

This thread is, nay, can only be, an excuse for each side to insult the other. Over and over again.
Well, then things got off to a good start right from the first two posts.
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Old 10-02-15, 06:02 PM   #21
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by Draven View Post
It certainly looks like you are coming at this discussion from an unbiased perspective.

.....

Guess we just have to accept that every few weeks, a chunk of us will die from a mass shooting. Nothing more to be done, right?
A few dozen people die every few months and you want to talk about unbiased perspective.
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Old 10-02-15, 06:21 PM   #22
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Is this for real?
Don't even get him started on Apple products.
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Old 10-02-15, 07:52 PM   #23
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Don't even get him started on Apple products.
Still can't handle that someone thinks the iwatch is a useless piece of tech, eh?
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Old 10-02-15, 07:54 PM   #24
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Definitely complicated.

Does anyone who is for more gun regulation...seen a form 7743.

And if so, your thoughts.
Do you mean a form 4473?
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Old 10-02-15, 07:58 PM   #25
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Yes.
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