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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 10-06-15, 04:02 PM   #101
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
The Constitution does not prohibit regulation. It prohibits the banning of "arms" by the federal government. We already regulate a multitude of things - such as not allowing you to own a grenade launcher.

I personally strongly advocate to adopt Australia's methodology:
- ALL guns sold are licensed. All buyers are registered and fingerprinted.
- All gun sales require a thorough background check including personal interviews with associates and other methods used by professionals.
Don't most shootings involve the obtaining of a weapon (often unknowingly) from a relative, friend, or somebody else. How is making every owner being fingerprinted going to help that issue.

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Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post
You do know that people have to register their automobiles and undergo a testing process to acquire licenses to operate them, don't you?

And if licensed drivers are unable or unwilling to operate their vehicles safely and responsibly, the licenses to drive are revoked and they aren't allowed to drive.
You make this sound like vehicle registration is a great system and doesn't require further rethinking. In some states, all you need to do is renew your DL once...and it's good for about 16 years.

And then you have particular administrations allowing DLs without much restriction due to immigration politics.

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Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post
Just a thought, but maybe if we have devices designed for the purpose of killing, we should maybe not let just anybody have them until they can prove they can use responsibly?
Just a thought, but if a person wants to kill other people, all they have to do is make sure they hit a target accurately and holster their weapon responsibly...and then you'll handover their Glock to them with a big thumbs-up.

This stuff is great for people who actually want to obey the law, but for those who have nefarious desires, they will fly under the radar...and you'll be posting here again asking for more regulation.
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Old 10-06-15, 04:39 PM   #102
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Don't most shootings involve the obtaining of a weapon (often unknowingly) from a relative, friend, or somebody else. How is making every owner being fingerprinted going to help that issue.



You make this sound like vehicle registration is a great system and doesn't require further rethinking. In some states, all you need to do is renew your DL once...and it's good for about 16 years.

And then you have particular administrations allowing DLs without much restriction due to immigration politics.



Just a thought, but if a person wants to kill other people, all they have to do is make sure they hit a target accurately and holster their weapon responsibly...and then you'll handover their Glock to them with a big thumbs-up.

This stuff is great for people who actually want to obey the law, but for those who have nefarious desires, they will fly under the radar...and you'll be posting here again asking for more regulation.
Valid argument: Yes, all some evil person has to do is act nice, play by the rules just to get the gun, then go kill people

Baloney argument: Doesn't matter if a drivers license is good for 16 years or 50 years, if you exhibit bad behavior it can get yanked in a matter of weeks, or even the day you get it.

As to a shooter using the gun of a friend or relative. I have no idea what the various laws are on this instance. My common sense tells me the gun can only be used by the registered owner, or by others with the registered owner present.
Maybe a reasonable burden of responsibility should be put on registered owners that others can't use their weapon(s).
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Old 10-06-15, 04:44 PM   #103
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post

This stuff is great for people who actually want to obey the law, but for those who have nefarious desires, they will fly under the radar...and you'll be posting here again asking for more regulation.
I think it's possible that making guns more restrictive in general could very well cause our culture to shift away from glorifying them to such an extent. So it might not make a change right away, but after some time it could be very positive.

Or we could throw our hands up in the air and go "it's too hard, I guess we'll keep shooting each other".
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Old 10-06-15, 05:40 PM   #104
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by rw2516 View Post
Valid argument: Yes, all some evil person has to do is act nice, play by the rules just to get the gun, then go kill people

Baloney argument: Doesn't matter if a drivers license is good for 16 years or 50 years, if you exhibit bad behavior it can get yanked in a matter of weeks, or even the day you get it.

As to a shooter using the gun of a friend or relative. I have no idea what the various laws are on this instance. My common sense tells me the gun can only be used by the registered owner, or by others with the registered owner present.
Maybe a reasonable burden of responsibility should be put on registered owners that others can't use their weapon(s).
Do you even know what you're talking about.

Are you even aware that people can still drive their vehicles, without a DL, and without insurance?

Are you even aware of the amount of people driving WITHOUT A DRIVER'S LICENSE? Without insurance?

According to you: "...the gun can only be used by the registered owner, or by others with the registered owner present."

So, by magic, you believe that since an object is owned by somebody...nobody else can get to it or use it...because...only the person who has it registered in their name...owns it...and anyone who attempts to take it...will know this...and they flee immediately.

And by magic, you believe we have this amazing DMV system, where only the people who should drive are on the roads today.

But no, you take this even further:

"Maybe a reasonable burden of responsibility should be put on registered owners that others can't use their weapon(s)."

Just what kind of responsibility are you talking about, other than what is already on the books when it comes to ownership and thieves who take property and use that property in a crime.

If I steal your car, out of your locked garage, and run over somebody with it, should the police be making you the responsible party?
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Old 10-06-15, 05:47 PM   #105
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by Draven View Post
I think it's possible that making guns more restrictive in general could very well cause our culture to shift away from glorifying them to such an extent. So it might not make a change right away, but after some time it could be very positive.

Or we could throw our hands up in the air and go "it's too hard, I guess we'll keep shooting each other".
So, what's your plan.

How can you prevent somebody from committing a mass murder...when they were legal and legit at the time they got their weapons.

In addition, how do you prevent somebody, like a relative, from taking weapons from other relatives and friends, who have no idea he was going to commit a murder.

A response such as, "WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!!!!" isn't going to cut it.
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Old 10-06-15, 06:27 PM   #106
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
So, what's your plan.

How can you prevent somebody from committing a mass murder...when they were legal and legit at the time they got their weapons.

In addition, how do you prevent somebody, like a relative, from taking weapons from other relatives and friends, who have no idea he was going to commit a murder.

A response such as, "WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!!!!" isn't going to cut it.
All guns must be secured. If stolen, guns should be reported stolen. If you give a friend or family member the gun and they kill someone (or themselves) then the registered owner is an accessory.

It's not impossible to make people accountable for owning weapons. You can even have the muzzle recorded so bullets recovered can be tracked back to guns, or guns that are stolen returned to owners.
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Old 10-06-15, 06:49 PM   #107
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
The Constitution does not prohibit regulation. It prohibits the banning of "arms" by the federal government. We already regulate a multitude of things - such as not allowing you to own a grenade launcher.

I personally strongly advocate to adopt Australia's methodology:
- ALL guns sold are licensed. All buyers are registered and fingerprinted.
- All gun sales require a thorough background check including personal interviews with associates and other methods used by professionals.
I'm not disagreeing with that, but saw this today.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/austral...-15yearold-boy
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Old 10-06-15, 08:44 PM   #108
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by Navinabob View Post
All guns must be secured. If stolen, guns should be reported stolen. If you give a friend or family member the gun and they kill someone (or themselves) then the registered owner is an accessory.

It's not impossible to make people accountable for owning weapons. You can even have the muzzle recorded so bullets recovered can be tracked back to guns, or guns that are stolen returned to owners.
If I give a gun to a friend to use and they kill somebody, I am not an accessory. This will not hold up in court. I will feel terrible, but feeling responsible...when I had no idea they were capable of such actions...is not going to be one of them.

As stated earlier, if a friend borrow's your car and they kill somebody with it, should you be held accountable? Will you man-up and say, "Yes, I'm an accessory!"

It's impossible to make people accountable for crimes which they had no idea was to occur, as well as having no idea their property was going to get stolen.

If you can prove there was motive to give another person a gun, then sure, prosecute them to the fullest of the law. We have laws already on the books for that.
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Old 10-06-15, 10:08 PM   #109
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
If I give a gun to a friend to use and they kill somebody, I am not an accessory. This will not hold up in court. I will feel terrible, but feeling responsible...when I had no idea they were capable of such actions...is not going to be one of them.

As stated earlier, if a friend borrow's your car and they kill somebody with it, should you be held accountable? Will you man-up and say, "Yes, I'm an accessory!"
But cars aren't for killing people. Guns are. Why wouldn't you be responsible for giving your deadly weapon to a friend?
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Old 10-07-15, 09:42 AM   #110
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Don't most shootings involve the obtaining of a weapon (often unknowingly) from a relative, friend, or somebody else. How is making every owner being fingerprinted going to help that issue.
To ensure that people buying guns do not have records in other states. Plus, it puts their prints on file just like mine.

I have to do a criminal background check for work. I also have to do an FBI check that involves fingerprinting to find stuff that happened out of state. And I have to pay for it myself.
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Old 10-07-15, 09:49 AM   #111
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Just what kind of responsibility are you talking about, other than what is already on the books when it comes to ownership and thieves who take property and use that property in a crime.
In Australia, they are hardcore:

Quote:
Absentee landholders warned about securing guns
Updated 12 Mar 2014, 1:46am

People who have to leave rural properties for extended periods of time are being warned they could face prosecution for not taking reasonable precautions to secure guns.
What I like best about Australia's law is that you must get a permit for every gun and to get a permit you must demonstrate a need where PERSONAL PROTECTION is NOT a valid need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
So, what's your plan.

How can you prevent somebody from committing a mass murder...when they were legal and legit at the time they got their weapons.

In addition, how do you prevent somebody, like a relative, from taking weapons from other relatives and friends, who have no idea he was going to commit a murder.

A response such as, "WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!!!!" isn't going to cut it.
You can't. We can only hope to limit these killings which stricter background checks and stricter control over sales WILL do.

As for stealing guns, when you start prosecuting gun owners who had their guns taken, then people will get more serious about securing their guns.
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Old 10-07-15, 10:48 AM   #112
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Plus, I'm sure Obama is just building up the number that your President Trump will need to put into internment camps as they await deportation.
I know you were being sarcastic, but you just brilliantly proved my point, that you do not want immigration laws enforced the same way you want gun laws enforced. You are implying that Trump is evil for deporting illegal immigrants in accordance with existing laws. And that Obama merits praise for ignoring the existing laws and tolerating illegal immigrants.
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Old 10-07-15, 12:15 PM   #113
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
If I give a gun to a friend to use and they kill somebody, I am not an accessory. This will not hold up in court. I will feel terrible, but feeling responsible...when I had no idea they were capable of such actions...is not going to be one of them.

As stated earlier, if a friend borrow's your car and they kill somebody with it, should you be held accountable? Will you man-up and say, "Yes, I'm an accessory!"

It's impossible to make people accountable for crimes which they had no idea was to occur, as well as having no idea their property was going to get stolen.

If you can prove there was motive to give another person a gun, then sure, prosecute them to the fullest of the law. We have laws already on the books for that.
A car is used for transportation. A gun is used for killing. Why else would you give or loan someone a gun? Hold people accountable. You can have 200 guns if you want to... but doing so may increase your liability if you behave in risky behavior like leaving a gun unsecured where a child could find it (accessory to any shooting that child does), giving to a friend, or selling to some dude on the street.

Guns should have liability insurance and registration records. That way you can't use the "I didn't know they had a felony conviction" excuse won't work in a private sale.
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Old 10-07-15, 01:37 PM   #114
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

This is the best thing I've read on guns in America in a long, long time: http://carteblanchfield.com/2015/06/24/real-talk/

I am definitely coming around to the idea that gun violence in America is a problem baked deeply into the structure of America and that we need to openly talk about all of the facts he points out before we can even begin to do anything about it. But this all goes back to the idea that America has a deep cultural sickness that we have never dealt with, nor (likely) will we ever deal with. So the apparatus of state violence against its citizens continues, and the apparatus of aggrieved citizen violence against other citizens continues.
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Old 10-07-15, 01:46 PM   #115
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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I know you were being sarcastic, but you just brilliantly proved my point, that you do not want immigration laws enforced the same way you want gun laws enforced. You are implying that Trump is evil for deporting illegal immigrants in accordance with existing laws. And that Obama merits praise for ignoring the existing laws and tolerating illegal immigrants.
First of all, I'm all for deporting illegal immigrants IF the number wasn't 13 million. I'm very interested in hearing the logistics involved in deporting 13 million people. If we were talking a couple thousand, no problem. Let me know how you deport 13 million people in a humane way.

(In truth, I am for immediate amnesty for the lot of them and start having them pay income taxes. Then instituting an efficient immigration process for Mexicans that wouldn't require them to cross the border illegally. But I'm not running for office and don't have to deal with the xenophobia and paranoia of voters.)
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Old 10-07-15, 03:05 PM   #116
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet View Post
This is the best thing I've read on guns in America in a long, long time: http://carteblanchfield.com/2015/06/24/real-talk/

I am definitely coming around to the idea that gun violence in America is a problem baked deeply into the structure of America and that we need to openly talk about all of the facts he points out before we can even begin to do anything about it. But this all goes back to the idea that America has a deep cultural sickness that we have never dealt with, nor (likely) will we ever deal with. So the apparatus of state violence against its citizens continues, and the apparatus of aggrieved citizen violence against other citizens continues.
State violence against citizens?

Are you posting from Iran or Afghanistan.








Or from the oppressive nazi dictatorship known as Starbucks.
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Old 10-07-15, 03:26 PM   #117
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Oh, you know, that whole "police shooting people" thing, for starters.
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Old 10-07-15, 03:45 PM   #118
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Do you even know what you're talking about.

Are you even aware that people can still drive their vehicles, without a DL, and without insurance?

Are you even aware of the amount of people driving WITHOUT A DRIVER'S LICENSE? Without insurance?
With all this shit going on why are you so concerned by the drivers license process? You said it was too lax. I responded to that. You go on a tirade about people driving whether they have a license or not. Which is it? Too easy to get a DL or people driving without them.
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Old 10-07-15, 04:05 PM   #119
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post

According to you: "...the gun can only be used by the registered owner, or by others with the registered owner present."

So, by magic, you believe that since an object is owned by somebody...nobody else can get to it or use it...because...only the person who has it registered in their name...owns it...and anyone who attempts to take it...will know this...and they flee immediately.


But no, you take this even further:

"Maybe a reasonable burden of responsibility should be put on registered owners that others can't use their weapon(s)."

Just what kind of responsibility are you talking about, other than what is already on the books when it comes to ownership and thieves who take property and use that property in a crime.

If I steal your car, out of your locked garage, and run over somebody with it, should the police be making you the responsible party?
1. I don't know what is currently on the books and specifically said that .
2. I never said what is, or is not, reasonable.
3. You know full well what I meant by "the gun can only be used by the registered owner, or by others with the registered owner present".

Unreal
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Old 10-07-15, 04:14 PM   #120
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Ahhhhh come over and let's hug!
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Old 10-07-15, 06:01 PM   #121
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

I don't understand why we don't get SOME movement on repealing the 2nd amendment. Yeah, it probably won't ever happen, but that doesn't stop the republicans from trying to repeal obamacare 500 times.
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Old 10-07-15, 06:38 PM   #122
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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But what is a gun's purpose for other than to kill? Just because you can shoot targets with it, you must be willing to admit that that's not what they were designed (or invented...both work) to do. Or was the first gun created to shoot a paper target? The first car certainly wasn't invented to race other cars.

Again, no problems with guns existing. My dad has some. I've shot them before. It's fun to do. But I also know what they are meant to do.
You are the one saying guns only have one purpose, I am explaining they have more than one. Sure guns are used to kill, but for other things too.

the first gun (fire lance) was actually designed to "DEFEND" not attack, so go figure. Your "root of all evil only designed/invented to kill people" and nothing else is hype.
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Old 10-07-15, 06:42 PM   #123
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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For the love of god...CARS AREN'T WEAPONS. I could kill someone with a stuffed teddy bear if I really wanted to.
HOLY CRAP!!!! HE IS CATCHING ON!!!

Yes, if you want to kill people, you will, its a human design issue.


Quote:
No one should act surprised when a gun is used to kill someone because that's exactly what they are intended to do.
I don't think anyone is 'surprised' at what guns are capable of. The surprise comes in when you have a human willing to use a gun in that manor on another human being for his own pleasure. That part is surprising, no?

I could spray gasoline on people and light them on fire. Would anyone be surprised gas burns or would they be more surprised that one human would light others on fire for his own pleasure?
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Old 10-07-15, 08:30 PM   #124
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by 4KRG View Post
You are the one saying guns only have one purpose, I am explaining they have more than one. Sure guns are used to kill, but for other things too.

the first gun (fire lance) was actually designed to "DEFEND" not attack, so go figure. Your "root of all evil only designed/invented to kill people" and nothing else is hype.
And they "defended" by.............doing...........what?

And please point to where I said that guns were the root of all evil. I said that guns were made to kill people. I could use a gun to dig a hole to plant a flower but is that what they are made to do?

Once we establish that guns are weapons designed to kill people from a distance, we can have a conversation about how restricted they should be to the general population. Getting into "guns don't kill people!" and "they are for target practice!" territory is just silly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4KRG View Post
HOLY CRAP!!!! HE IS CATCHING ON!!!

Yes, if you want to kill people, you will, its a human design issue.




I don't think anyone is 'surprised' at what guns are capable of. The surprise comes in when you have a human willing to use a gun in that manor on another human being for his own pleasure. That part is surprising, no?

I could spray gasoline on people and light them on fire. Would anyone be surprised gas burns or would they be more surprised that one human would light others on fire for his own pleasure?
What is easier to do - kill someone with a gun or without a gun? Bottom line is a person who wants to kill and has a gun is always going to be more effective at accomplishing that goal than that same person without one. Toddlers can (and do) easily kill adults with a gun. It's not even up for debate how good they are at killing people.
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Old 10-07-15, 09:30 PM   #125
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Is that sarcasm or do you really believe that.
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