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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 10-05-15, 06:49 PM   #76
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by Draven View Post
Guns were invented to shoot at targets? Or do we shoot at targets because we can't shoot at people?

I have no doubts there are guns that are not good at shooting people. But that doesn't mean that guns in general aren't intended to be used as weapons.

NASCAR cars aren't good for driving on city streets, but that doesn't mean cars in general aren't meant to be modes of transportation.
So now you are going to change 'designed' to 'invented'

Point is, guns have a purpose other than shooting people, you seem to not want to admit that.

Cars have a purpose other than getting groceries and getting you to work, ie., NASCAR

Imagine that, multipurpose devices, both CAN kill people, and both have other purposes. Let's not focus just on the negative.
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Old 10-05-15, 07:37 PM   #77
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Dems + Guns = Reps + Weed.
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Old 10-05-15, 08:59 PM   #78
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by 4KRG View Post
So now you are going to change 'designed' to 'invented'

Point is, guns have a purpose other than shooting people, you seem to not want to admit that.

Cars have a purpose other than getting groceries and getting you to work, ie., NASCAR

Imagine that, multipurpose devices, both CAN kill people, and both have other purposes. Let's not focus just on the negative.
But what is a gun's purpose for other than to kill? Just because you can shoot targets with it, you must be willing to admit that that's not what they were designed (or invented...both work) to do. Or was the first gun created to shoot a paper target? The first car certainly wasn't invented to race other cars.

Again, no problems with guns existing. My dad has some. I've shot them before. It's fun to do. But I also know what they are meant to do.
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Old 10-05-15, 10:36 PM   #79
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=89d_1411198955

10% of you are seething inside that I posted this here....
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Old 10-05-15, 11:29 PM   #80
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

He really should try a Vegemite sandwich. Delish!
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Old 10-05-15, 11:40 PM   #81
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by Draven View Post
But what is a gun's purpose for other than to kill? Just because you can shoot targets with it, you must be willing to admit that that's not what they were designed (or invented...both work) to do. Or was the first gun created to shoot a paper target? The first car certainly wasn't invented to race other cars.

Again, no problems with guns existing. My dad has some. I've shot them before. It's fun to do. But I also know what they are meant to do.
If something is designed to kill, is that a bad thing?

I ask that genuinely, without any ulterior motive. Here's why. We have vehicles which were designed exclusively for transportation. But how many vehicle-related deaths per year do we have.

I sure don't hear anyone saying vehicles need to be regulated to the point where people need to go through background checks to drive them.

33,000 people died in 2013 for gun-related deaths.

About 33,000 people died in 2013 in vehicle-related deaths. The numbers are only within a few hundred difference.

With numbers like that, why don't I hear from anti-gun folks (or the faint of heart..."more legislation folks"), legislation and background checks and mental background checks for people who want to buy a car and register it?

But yet we have thousands of people every year who use their vehicle (or someone else's) to kill others, and there is absolutely nothing I've read from anyone who is adamant in saying guns are bad for our society, bringing up the subject of vehicle deaths and how that needs to be addressed. It's always guns. And it's always people like me who bring up other objects which kill people that are not being focused on in a more balanced way.

So, now maybe we're getting to the root issue of why some people believe guns need to be regulated on a never-ending basis, whenever an incident is on the news reporting a gun-related death.

Last edited by DVD Polizei; 10-05-15 at 11:54 PM.
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Old 10-06-15, 12:09 AM   #82
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

For the love of god...CARS AREN'T WEAPONS. I could kill someone with a stuffed teddy bear if I really wanted to.

No one should act surprised when a gun is used to kill someone because that's exactly what they are intended to do.

The definition of a weapon is "a thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage."

Now which does that fit: a gun or a car?
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Old 10-06-15, 01:32 AM   #83
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

From that definition, anything can be a weapon. Which includes vehicles.

At the same time, I agree, guns were designed to kill. I'm not disputing this.

You're not getting my point. Let's try again.

Why are you focusing on gun deaths.
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Old 10-06-15, 02:27 AM   #84
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Why are you focusing on gun deaths.
Because the intent is malicious?
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Old 10-06-15, 06:20 AM   #85
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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But yet we have thousands of people every year who use their vehicle (or someone else's) to kill others, and there is absolutely nothing I've read from anyone who is adamant in saying guns are bad for our society, bringing up the subject of vehicle deaths and how that needs to be addressed. It's always guns. And it's always people like me who bring up other objects which kill people that are not being focused on in a more balanced way.
There's a reason we don't arm our military with just cars so they can just run down the enemy.

I really don't give a shit about this issue, but it amazes me the bullshit arguments tossed around by BOTH SIDES.

Yesterday watched an argument over background checks. The conservative/pro-gun guy said the cost of background checks make it hard for the poor to be able to afford guns to protect themselves.
So, people on entitlements who buy cell phones and big screen tvs are scum, but using the money to buy guns is ok?
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Old 10-06-15, 08:12 AM   #86
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by rw2516 View Post
The conservative/pro-gun guy said the cost of background checks make it hard for the poor to be able to afford guns to protect themselves.
That's hilarious. The right finally found a reason to care about the poor. Because they can't afford guns.
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Old 10-06-15, 08:54 AM   #87
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
If something is designed to kill, is that a bad thing?

I ask that genuinely, without any ulterior motive. Here's why. We have vehicles which were designed exclusively for transportation. But how many vehicle-related deaths per year do we have.

I sure don't hear anyone saying vehicles need to be regulated to the point where people need to go through background checks to drive them.
You do know that people have to register their automobiles and undergo a testing process to acquire licenses to operate them, don't you?

And if licensed drivers are unable or unwilling to operate their vehicles safely and responsibly, the licenses to drive are revoked and they aren't allowed to drive.

Just a thought, but maybe if we have devices designed for the purpose of killing, we should maybe not let just anybody have them until they can prove they can use responsibly?
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Old 10-06-15, 09:41 AM   #88
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
If something is designed to kill, is that a bad thing?

I ask that genuinely, without any ulterior motive. Here's why. We have vehicles which were designed exclusively for transportation. But how many vehicle-related deaths per year do we have.

I sure don't hear anyone saying vehicles need to be regulated to the point where people need to go through background checks to drive them.

33,000 people died in 2013 for gun-related deaths.

About 33,000 people died in 2013 in vehicle-related deaths. The numbers are only within a few hundred difference.

With numbers like that, why don't I hear from anti-gun folks (or the faint of heart..."more legislation folks"), legislation and background checks and mental background checks for people who want to buy a car and register it?

But yet we have thousands of people every year who use their vehicle (or someone else's) to kill others, and there is absolutely nothing I've read from anyone who is adamant in saying guns are bad for our society, bringing up the subject of vehicle deaths and how that needs to be addressed. It's always guns. And it's always people like me who bring up other objects which kill people that are not being focused on in a more balanced way.

So, now maybe we're getting to the root issue of why some people believe guns need to be regulated on a never-ending basis, whenever an incident is on the news reporting a gun-related death.
I'm not anti-gun by any stretch, but it is crazy that the number of gun-related deaths would be about the same as the number of auto related deaths. The number of miles driven every year in America is a staggering number. You would expect many more deaths from autos.
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Old 10-06-15, 10:09 AM   #89
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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For the sake of argument, lets change donuts to sugary soft drinks. Then look a NYC, where the mayor imposed a ban on the sales of certain quantities of these drinks. The difference? Soft drinks (not donuts) are not protected under the US Constitution. Guns are. Whether you agree with more gun control or not, this is the key issue that should be addressed. The kind of gun control that is sought by those crying out over gun violence can only be attained through a Constitutional amendment. If you really want change, pursue that, otherwise its just a never ending pissing match.
The Constitution does not prohibit regulation. It prohibits the banning of "arms" by the federal government. We already regulate a multitude of things - such as not allowing you to own a grenade launcher.

I personally strongly advocate to adopt Australia's methodology:
- ALL guns sold are licensed. All buyers are registered and fingerprinted.
- All gun sales require a thorough background check including personal interviews with associates and other methods used by professionals.
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Old 10-06-15, 10:15 AM   #90
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

OK, let's say we all agree about what to do going forward. Nobody will be able to buy a new gun without jumping through all the hoops you want them to jump.

What about the ones already out there? Tell me specifically what you are going to do to disarm all the people with illegal guns. Are the people that get uncomfortable when it seems some groups are being treated differently based on race going to allow the authorities to convict EVERYBODY that is found with illegal firearms? Because people that already think the "war on drugs" is wrong, and racially biased, are not going to like the "war on guns" at all.
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Old 10-06-15, 10:19 AM   #91
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Disarm? The Constitution forbids "disarming". It has to be voluntary and through attrition.

1. Nationwide gun buybacks. Australia bought back 700,000 guns. We can do better than those bastards.

2. Every weapon needs to be licensed. Hunters, people at ranges, Yosemite Sam types with holsters all have to show a license for the gun they are carrying. If I have to display a damned fishing license, there is no reason this is not viable. The only argument against it is paranoia. Better yet, you get 5licenses free, the next 5 are $10 per gun, the next 5 are $50 per gun, etc. Maybe people will be more willing to participate in #1.

And people WILL LOVE "the war on guns". Are you kidding me? If you are found with an illegal gun, it's immediately confiscated. Done. End of story. If it's the first offense, no problem. If it's used in a crime, no pleas, max sentence.
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Old 10-06-15, 10:24 AM   #92
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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OK, let's say we all agree about what to do going forward. Nobody will be able to buy a new gun without jumping through all the hoops you want them to jump.

What about the ones already out there? Tell me specifically what you are going to do to disarm all the people with illegal guns. Are the people that get uncomfortable when it seems some groups are being treated differently based on race going to allow the authorities to convict EVERYBODY that is found with illegal firearms? Because people that already think the "war on drugs" is wrong, and racially biased, are not going to like the "war on guns" at all.
Do we not enforce laws because they'll be too hard? We have to start somewhere.
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Old 10-06-15, 10:31 AM   #93
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

There have been plenty of buy back programs in the past. They are only successful in getting back the ones people do not plan on using.

Good luck licensing guns you don't know about.

To actually get guns before they are used, and in most cases after the fact, gun raids via warrants will have to happen. To have a lasting effect we would need to convict people for owning illegal guns. Like the other countries people have been holding up as the gold standard. I doubt the people will like how that really goes down.

Last edited by hdnmickey; 10-06-15 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 10-06-15, 10:41 AM   #94
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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There have been plenty of buy back programs int he past. They are only successful in getting back the ones people do not plan on using.

Good luck licensing guns you don't know about.

To actually get guns before they are used, and in most cases after the fact, gun raids via warrants will have to happen. To have a lasting effect we would need to convict people for owning illegal guns. Like the other countries people have been holding up as the gold standard. I doubt the people will like how that really goes down.
It seems you fail to understand that we have the 2nd Amendment. We cannot and should not be authoritarian about this. If people don't register their guns, fine, just don't try to sell it or display it in public.

We're never going to get the guns on the street. I don't think anyone is pushing that other than to let regular law enforcment work. But buybacks and other methods of making it more difficult to get a gun will a) stop mentally ill people from getting them and b) lower the number of guns produced over the long term.

Actually, this is part of a giant mischaracterization and obfuscation by the NRA allies. They robotically spout that "in cities with the toughest gun laws, gun violence is the highest!". That's because cities that institute gun laws are already extremely violent. Why make them even more violent by allowing the free flow of legal guns on top of the illegal guns?
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Old 10-06-15, 12:03 PM   #95
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Do we not enforce laws because they'll be too hard? We have to start somewhere.
Yeah, just like with illegal immigration, right?
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Old 10-06-15, 12:59 PM   #96
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Yeah, just like with illegal immigration, right?
Sigh.

Why Has President Obama Deported More Immigrants Than Any President in US History?
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Old 10-06-15, 01:20 PM   #97
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

You must not have seen this headline today...
Quote:
U.S. deportations of immigrants at lowest level since 2006

The Obama administration deported the fewest number of immigrants in the past 12 months since 2006, according to new government figures obtained by The Associated Press.

The figures also show that deportations of criminal immigrants have dropped to the lowest numbers since President Barack Obama took office in 2009, despite his pledge to focus on finding and deporting criminals living in the country illegally.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...006-story.html

"Total deportations dropped 42 percent since 2012."

Sigh.
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Old 10-06-15, 01:38 PM   #98
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by wishbone View Post
You must not have seen this headline today...http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...006-story.html

"Total deportations dropped 42 percent since 2012."

Sigh.
There seems to be something wrong with your computer. Rather than cut-and-paste the whole article, it seems to have pulled selective out-of-contect quotes. Weird.

Quote:
U.S. deportations of immigrants at lowest level since 2006

[color]The Obama administration deported the fewest number of immigrants in the past 12 months since 2006, according to new government figures obtained by The Associated Press.

The figures also show that deportations of criminal immigrants have dropped to the lowest numbers since President Barack Obama took office in 2009, despite his pledge to focus on finding and deporting criminals living in the country illegally.

The overall total of 231,000 deportations generally does not include Mexicans who were caught at the border and quickly returned home by the U.S. Border Patrol. The figure does include roughly 136,700 convicted criminals deported in the last 12 months. Total deportations dropped 42 percent since 2012.

The Homeland Security Department has not yet publicly disclosed the new internal figures, which include month-by-month breakdowns and cover the period between Oct. 1, 2014, and Sept. 28. The new numbers emerged as illegal immigration continues to be sharply debated among Republican presidential candidates, especially front-runner Donald Trump. And they come as Obama carries out his pledge from before his 2012 re-election to narrowly focus enforcement and slow deportations after more than a decade of rising figures.

The biggest surprise in the figures was the decline in criminal deportations. Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson last year directed immigration authorities anew to focus on finding and deporting immigrants who pose a national security or public safety threat, those who have serious criminal records or those who recently crossed the Mexican border. The decline suggests the administration has been failing to find criminal immigrants in the U.S. interior, or that fewer immigrants living in the U.S. illegally had criminal records serious enough to justify deporting them.

"With the resources we have ... I'm interested in focusing on criminals and recent illegal arrivals at the border," Johnson told Congress in April.

Roughly 11 million immigrants are thought to be living in the country illegally.

Obama has overseen the removal of more than 2.4 million immigrants since taking office, but deportations have been declining steadily in the last three years. Removals declined by more than 84,000 between the 2014 and 2015 budget years, the largest year-over-year decline since 2012.

The Homeland Security Department has been quick to attribute the steady decline to changing demographics at the Mexican border, specifically the increasing number of immigrants from countries other than Mexico and the spike in unaccompanied children and families caught trying to cross the border illegally in 2014. The majority of the children and tens of thousands of people traveling as families, mostly mothers and children, came from Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala.

The Border Patrol historically sends home Mexican immigrants caught crossing the border illegally, but U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement must fly home immigrants from other countries. That process is more expensive, complicated and time-consuming, especially when immigrants fight their deportation or seek asylum in the United States.

Arrests of border crossers from other countries also dropped this year, along with the number of unaccompanied children and families. As of the end of August, the Border Patrol arrested about 130,000 immigrants from countries other than Mexico, about 34,500 unaccompanied children and roughly 34,400 people traveling as families.

More than 257,000 immigrants from countries other than Mexico were apprehended at the border during the 2014 budget year, including more than 68,000 unaccompanied children and tens of thousands of family members. It was the first time that immigrants from other countries outnumbered those from Mexico.
http://my.chicagotribune.com/#sectio.../p2p-84620120/
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Old 10-06-15, 01:49 PM   #99
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by wishbone View Post
You must not have seen this headline today...http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...006-story.html

"Total deportations dropped 42 percent since 2012."

Sigh.
I could care less that Obama changed his policy on this. I was just pointing out to that poster that he was towing a line of bullshit implying Obama isn't doing anything about illegal immigration.

Plus, I'm sure Obama is just building up the number that your President Trump will need to put into internment camps as they await deportation.
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Old 10-06-15, 02:12 PM   #100
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Great read. I always question how effective a counter-shooter would be and if they'd add more to the chaos. Can't post the full text.

http://www.thenation.com/article/com...inger-fantasy/

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