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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 10-04-15, 12:02 PM   #51
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
The issue is violence. Violent behavior will still be there after you take a gun out of somebody's hands.

Do you cure obesity by banning donuts? Nope. Because that is stupid.

Amazingly, some think the same with guns.

Let's deal with the real issue here, not what politicians have told you for decades over.
You misunderstand. I never said anything about banning guns. The issue isn't guns per say, it's the gun culture or how that violence manifests itself through the use of guns. You have 200+ years of history/culture where guns are used to "solve problems". From wars, to westerns, to gangsters, to vigilantes, etc...

There's a boatload of guns in Switzerland, and yet it would never occur to a Swiss person to shoot someone because he looked at them funny. Nor would a Swiss person ever say "I need a gun to defend myself and my family". Their gun culture is completely different.

This is the real issue and it's never talked about. Of course you can't expect to erase/change 200+ years of history/culture overnight, but limiting discussions to mental health, violence, more/less gun control is like trying to stop a bleeding artery by putting a band-aid on it.
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Old 10-04-15, 01:52 PM   #52
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

How can you say this issue is never talked about. It's in our fucking face every week, whether it's a school shooting or gun violence in shitty cities where politicians don't care (amazingly Democrat cities).

Well, I think you misunderstand, because our gun culture is the result of our culture of violence. Guns do not create violence. It's the other way around.

Like I said, you take away the GUN CULTURE, and you'll still have the underlying problem of violence. Solve that issue, and you'll have less gun violence as well as many other types of violence in the US.

You know, I hear all the time about what other countries are doing and how they're just so perfect. Well, they never became a world power in a few hundred years. They aren't taking care of other countries, like the US is. In addition, they are taking US money hand over foot, and don't have a problem with it. They are also being overcome by immigrants who feel they don't need to abide by the country's rules they escaped to (i.e, those perfect non-violent countries like France, Sweden, etc.)

The US is a braggart country, an egotistic country, and a country that likes to flaunt power. I don't think that's necessarily bad as we have become the safest country in the world to be. People like it here. We have immigration numbers to prove it.

The US was a country where it was walking tall with a stick, and if they saw somebody getting abused, we went in and kicked their ass.

When's the last time Switzerland did that.

The US has become a lot more soft lately, however, due to using foreign policy that accepts genocidal maniac leaders, and makes deals with them in order to avoid conflict, and push the conflict onto somebody else.

When is the last the Swiss stood up for other people in the world and had a military to fight.

[A UN Peacekeeping Force, led by a few dozen Swiss doesn't count.]

Come to think of it, when did Switzerland stand up for anything outside of its own border.

I think we as a country need to realize that because of who we are, there will be excessive but exceptive events which happen.

You say gun banning isn't on the table, but that's realistically the only option I'm hearing. One poster wants to make it so incredibly difficult, you might as well have a ban.

Suppose we banned all guns and only had revolvers being legal. You think we'd have less gun violence? I think you know the answer, but you'll skip over it, say it's not about gun bans, but won't come up with a solution. Why? Because you know there isn't a definitive solution.

All I hear is SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE!!!1111 That's just stupid. It's a reflex created by the media and your favorite politicians (both Repubs and Dems).

Maybe you can identify with another topic. Abortion. We have Republican Extremists who want a complete ban on abortion, because WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!!!!111
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Old 10-04-15, 02:50 PM   #53
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by eXcentris View Post
You misunderstand. I never said anything about banning guns. The issue isn't guns per say, it's the gun culture or how that violence manifests itself through the use of guns. You have 200+ years of history/culture where guns are used to "solve problems". From wars, to westerns, to gangsters, to vigilantes, etc...

There's a boatload of guns in Switzerland, and yet it would never occur to a Swiss person to shoot someone because he looked at them funny. Nor would a Swiss person ever say "I need a gun to defend myself and my family". Their gun culture is completely different.

This is the real issue and it's never talked about. Of course you can't expect to erase/change 200+ years of history/culture overnight, but limiting discussions to mental health, violence, more/less gun control is like trying to stop a bleeding artery by putting a band-aid on it.
Its one of the more realistic solutions I've heard, but It's going to take a long time to change this, including waiting for several generations to die off. People want instant answers and they want them right now.
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Old 10-04-15, 02:52 PM   #54
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by Draven View Post
But a gun makes it easy to kill. In fact, it's one of the most effective ways of killing other people. That's what a gun is designed specifically to do. That's its whole purpose.

You could eat one donut a month and be perfectly healthy. But if you shoot one person a month, that's bad.
Why is one person dead per month, bad.
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Old 10-04-15, 03:29 PM   #55
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Why is one person dead per month, bad.
You compared gun violence with eating donuts. I'm trying to illustrate the difference between eating a donut and a dead person.
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Old 10-04-15, 03:37 PM   #56
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Compare it with buying guns, then.

Every single day, people buy guns...but don't die. But there is a very small percentage, who do...just like donuts.

Some people buy a donut one day and die the next, but do you or anyone else raise their arms in desperation, asking why are donut shops able to sell such killing things? You are then told, well, so many donuts are made, and the amount of people who actually die from eating one is so insignificant, it's not worth debate.

And you and many others say, "Hmm, ok, you're right."

But here we are discussing people who die from guns, somehow thinking this is a massive onslaught of deaths against people, higher than any other reason why people die.
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Old 10-04-15, 04:13 PM   #57
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Some people buy a donut one day and die the next, but do you or anyone else raise their arms in desperation, asking why are donut shops able to sell such killing things? You are then told, well, so many donuts are made, and the amount of people who actually die from eating one is so insignificant, it's not worth debate.
Are donuts designed specifically to kill people? Guns are.

Are donuts used to kill other people? Guns are. Again, that's exactly what they are designed to do.

So how could those things be compared?
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Last edited by Draven; 10-04-15 at 07:18 PM.
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Old 10-04-15, 05:32 PM   #58
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

[QUOTE=Draven;12607419]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Some people buy a donut one day and die the next, but do you or anyone else raise their arms in desperation, asking why are donut shops able to sell such killing things? You are then told, well, so many donuts are made, and the amount of people who actually die from eating one is so insignificant, it's not worth debate.
/QUOTE]

Are donuts designed specifically to kill people? Guns are.

Are donuts used to kill other people? Guns are. Again, that's exactly what they are designed to do.

So how could those things be compared?
Can you save people's lives with a donut?
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Old 10-04-15, 06:29 PM   #59
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

This year, a scumbag used a gun to murder a dozen people in a "gun free zone" at the Charlie Hebdo magazine for drawing cartoons that made fun of Mohammed.

Later this year, in gun heavy Texas, a law abiding gun owner stopped two scumbags from using their guns to murder anyone at a Mohammed cartoon contest. Thanks to this law abiding, gun owning here, zero people were murdered.

In the debate over guns, everyone is against murder. The only disagreement is over self defense. Some people, including myself, are in favor of people being allowed to use guns for self defense, like they did in the Texas incident. Other people oppose letting people use guns for self defense, like with the incident in France.

And there's Rosie O'Donnell, who has an armed bodyguard, but is against anyone else using guns for self defense.

And there's David Gregory, who expressed his support for gun control for everyone but himself by holding an illegal gun clip on national TV.

And there's Obama, who voted against letting people in their own homes use guns to defend their families from rapists and murderers when he was a state senator in Illinois, but rejected a petition to turn the White House into a gun free zone.

Last edited by grundle; 10-04-15 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 10-04-15, 06:39 PM   #60
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by Draven View Post
I'm trying to illustrate the difference between eating a donut and a dead person.


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Old 10-04-15, 07:18 PM   #61
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Some people buy a donut one day and die the next, but do you or anyone else raise their arms in desperation, asking why are donut shops able to sell such killing things?
Some people will read this sentence and suffer a loss of up to 20 IQ points.
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Old 10-04-15, 07:20 PM   #62
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post

Can you save people's lives with a donut?
Sure. You could throw one in an attackers face and distract him enough to run out the nearest door. I could dig a hole for flowers with a gun too. But is saving lives what guns were designed to do?

Why does everyone dance around what they are actually for? I'm not even anti-gun, but I understand what they are.
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Old 10-04-15, 07:37 PM   #63
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

The donut analogy is spurious: Someone else eating a donut doesn't put *me* at risk. Someone else brandishing a gun at me does.

Regarding underlying violence: I agree, but guns make it easier to amplify the effects of violence.

Other countries with guns: they don't have anywhere near the income/racial variation as in the US.

For gun control advocates: suppose tomorrow stringent gun acquisition checks are put in place. That still leaves millions of guns out there. Will we be safer the day after tomorrow? Isn't gun confiscation (from legal owners) a necessity for better safety with gun control policies?
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Old 10-04-15, 07:48 PM   #64
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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The donut analogy is spurious: Someone else eating a donut doesn't put *me* at risk. Someone else brandishing a gun at me does.
But are we debating gun reduction from a vacuum, not concerned with deaths?

That's what I'm getting at.

It seems the number of people dying really isn't the issue (it's really just the mythical brandishing of a weapon that invokes fear and symbolism into many--because fear of what you don't understand is way too common in the US these days)...because if it was truly about those who wanted to reduce overall deaths in America...we wouldn't be debating gun violence at all.

We'd be debating much more serious issues, which cause much more deaths...every single day.

So, fine, let's just call it what it really is, and stop hiding behind the "but people are dying!!!!!" crap.

Let's just say, hey, there are people who are afraid of weapons, feel they don't need to be in the hands of Americans, and at every single opportunity available...we will try and enact legislation to do as much.
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Old 10-04-15, 07:55 PM   #65
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
It seems the number of people dying really isn't the issue
....

We'd be debating much more serious issues, which cause much more deaths...every single day.
True. The issue is the number of deaths where the deaths were due to the deliberate actions of other people.
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Old 10-04-15, 09:32 PM   #66
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...004-story.html

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A day before a gunman in Oregon killed eight classmates and his college writing teacher, Tuolomne County sheriff's detectives foiled a plot by students to go on a shooting rampage at their high school near Yosemite National Park, authorities said.

The Summerville Union High School students, all male, had detailed plans that “included names of would-be victims, locations, methods in which the plan was to be carried out,” Sheriff Jim Mele told reporters at a news conference Saturday. The targets included other students and faculty members. The boys confessed, Mele said, according to the Modesto Bee and KCRA-TV Channel 3.

Three were arrested Wednesday and a fourth detained Friday on suspicion of conspiracy to commit assault with deadly weapons, a statement provided by the sheriff’s office said.
Here we have pro-active solutions to preventing violent acts...versus reactive solutions.

This could have been a tragedy on a massive scale.

Now we need tough punishment to fit the the crime. 10 years minimum, would be a start. Or charge them under domestic terrorism laws (if those laws have any bite these days).
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Old 10-04-15, 09:47 PM   #67
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post

Can you save people's lives with a donut?
Yes:

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Old 10-04-15, 10:10 PM   #68
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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I think it does. Because the "protection" of owning a gun is all about perception. People who don't feel the threat are a lot less likely to feel like they need to own a gun.
That may be important to you, but it isn't to me. I had senators as next door neighbors where I grew up, you couldn't ask for a safer 'community' to be in. That has no bearing at all on my situation, yet means everything to you, so maybe people are different?

I am also trained in marshal arts, am well over 6' tall, over 200lbs, and my wallet is the one that says bad motherfucker on it.

All still has no bearing whatsoever on my POV of CCW and owning guns.

BTW - you have completely dodged my question about why you want CCW permits to be harder than they are now (which is pretty hard) to get?

Are CCW holders committing a ton of crimes where you live? or are they in the news specifically? Where did your comment come from? What compels you to say that?

You are a non-gun person, the ccw comment is an odd one.

I guess It would be like me discussing brain surgery with a brain surgeon (I am not a brain surgeon). I am sure things I say about brain surgery would be odd to a brain surgeon.


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Originally Posted by Draven View Post
That's what a gun is designed specifically to do. That's its whole purpose.
It's ok that you hold this point of view, some people believe in ghosts, but there are plenty of guns that are not designed with the specific intent to kill people.

Would you like me to take some pictures of some I had custom built not to kill people but instead to put an entire magazine of rounds into one hole on a target? It sounds like you have never seen or heard of such a creation, yet I own many of them. (and there are reasons these are not good guns to kill people with, if you really were a gun-person, you would know why)
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Old 10-04-15, 10:59 PM   #69
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by eXcentris View Post
You misunderstand. I never said anything it's the gun culture or how that violence manifests itself through the use of guns. You have 200+ years of history/culture where guns are used to "solve problems". From wars, to westerns, to gangsters, to vigilantes, etc...
I think this is another 'lost leader' that people want to beleive and it is talked about more often than you think in the US, but isn't 100% on point IMO

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There's a boatload of guns in Switzerland, and yet it would never occur to a Swiss person to shoot someone because he looked at them funny.
WRONG, try again

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/sw...aargau-n356671

Quote:
This is the real issue and it's never talked about. Of course you can't expect to erase/change 200+ years of history/culture overnight, but limiting discussions to mental health, violence, more/less gun control is like trying to stop a bleeding artery by putting a band-aid on it.
I think mass murders happen for reasons people really do not want to admit. So you have politicians and the media making up a ton of easy reasons for public consumption. We would all be safe if only they closed that darn gun show loophole, OMG!

I have not studied the mass murder suspects of the last 10 years in great detail, but the majority of them are sort of society outcasts. People that do not have a lot of friends or that don't really 'fit in' or not really considered 'normal' (whatever that is). They are people on the fringe.

The problem is so untouchable that we want to think it can simply be stopped by making certain guns harder to purchase, but it can't.

The first problem is, someone needs to actually define the REAL problem.

Mental health is the closest thing that touches it, but does not define it 100%. Being odd or different and not fitting in, not having wide acceptance with other humans, and maybe struggling financially (I don't think any mass murders are financially independent, they all work or are supported by family, so take that comment for what it is) or some combination of that and a dozen other things no one thought of.

Happy people don't just go and randomly shoot up a bunch of other people (even if they live in a gun culture). This also has something to do with the general level of anger Americans are walking around with today (no, not in podunk mayberry, but in the larger cities, lots of angry people that don't give a shit about anyone but themselves)

If you want to say it's simply Americans with guns and the gun culture, then there would be a whole lot more shootings than what you see now... the problems is a more defined subset than that.

I understand the point that there is no specific mental disease that causes a person to want to shoot other people. If you caught something called 'massmurderidis', then we would know to lock you up, we know that does not exist.

BUT

There has to be some mental issue combination of anger/hate/hopelessness/desperation/depression/abuse/being an outcast/pressure/??/??/?? that makes someone come to the conclusion that this is the path they should take.
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Old 10-05-15, 08:45 AM   #70
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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You compared gun violence with eating donuts. I'm trying to illustrate the difference between eating a donut and a dead person.
For the sake of argument, lets change donuts to sugary soft drinks. Then look a NYC, where the mayor imposed a ban on the sales of certain quantities of these drinks. The difference? Soft drinks (not donuts) are not protected under the US Constitution. Guns are. Whether you agree with more gun control or not, this is the key issue that should be addressed. The kind of gun control that is sought by those crying out over gun violence can only be attained through a Constitutional amendment. If you really want change, pursue that, otherwise its just a never ending pissing match.
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Old 10-05-15, 10:47 AM   #71
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by 4KRG View Post

It's ok that you hold this point of view, some people believe in ghosts, but there are plenty of guns that are not designed with the specific intent to kill people.

Would you like me to take some pictures of some I had custom built not to kill people but instead to put an entire magazine of rounds into one hole on a target? It sounds like you have never seen or heard of such a creation, yet I own many of them. (and there are reasons these are not good guns to kill people with, if you really were a gun-person, you would know why)
Guns were invented to shoot at targets? Or do we shoot at targets because we can't shoot at people?

I have no doubts there are guns that are not good at shooting people. But that doesn't mean that guns in general aren't intended to be used as weapons.

NASCAR cars aren't good for driving on city streets, but that doesn't mean cars in general aren't meant to be modes of transportation.
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Last edited by Draven; 10-05-15 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 10-05-15, 11:19 AM   #72
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by eXcentris View Post
You misunderstand. I never said anything about banning guns. The issue isn't guns per say, it's the gun culture or how that violence manifests itself through the use of guns. You have 200+ years of history/culture where guns are used to "solve problems". From wars, to westerns, to gangsters, to vigilantes, etc...

There's a boatload of guns in Switzerland, and yet it would never occur to a Swiss person to shoot someone because he looked at them funny. Nor would a Swiss person ever say "I need a gun to defend myself and my family". Their gun culture is completely different.

This is the real issue and it's never talked about. Of course you can't expect to erase/change 200+ years of history/culture overnight, but limiting discussions to mental health, violence, more/less gun control is like trying to stop a bleeding artery by putting a band-aid on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wearetheborg View Post
Other countries with guns: they don't have anywhere near the income/racial variation as in the US.
I think both of the above are part of it. America puts a much greater emphasis on individuality, individual freedoms, and self-reliance than do most other countries. This has a lot of upsides, but I think the downside is that there are a lot of people who slip through the cracks and don't have the ethnic community/sense of place/stable family/economic security/social cohesion that other countries and cultures have. When there's more individuality, there's more isolation and disconnection, IMO.
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Old 10-05-15, 04:15 PM   #73
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
Yes. That's what I was talking about. Didn't know they were "illegal" transactions. But it's a somewhat common term.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole
ok. So a legal private sale.
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Old 10-05-15, 05:52 PM   #74
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by eXcentris View Post
You misunderstand. I never said anything about banning guns. The issue isn't guns per say, it's the gun culture or how that violence manifests itself through the use of guns. You have 200+ years of history/culture where guns are used to "solve problems". From wars, to westerns, to gangsters, to vigilantes, etc...

There's a boatload of guns in Switzerland, and yet it would never occur to a Swiss person to shoot someone because he looked at them funny. Nor would a Swiss person ever say "I need a gun to defend myself and my family". Their gun culture is completely different.

This is the real issue and it's never talked about. Of course you can't expect to erase/change 200+ years of history/culture overnight, but limiting discussions to mental health, violence, more/less gun control is like trying to stop a bleeding artery by putting a band-aid on it.
Japan is all about swords & guns. Violent games, movies, TV and comic books that make us look PG. They also have a long historical connection in Japan.

Try owning a sword in Japan (let alone a gun).

It's possible to do.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/201.../#.VhL-_vlVhBc
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Old 10-05-15, 06:38 PM   #75
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by Navinabob View Post
Japan is all about swords & guns. Violent games, movies, TV and comic books that make us look PG. They also have a long historical connection in Japan.

Try owning a sword in Japan (let alone a gun).
Historically speaking, quality swords in old Japan and China would have generally been very expensive--out of the reach of most commoners, and often the peasant classes were prohibited from having any quality weapons in the first place for fear of rebellions.

That's very different than America, where guns have pretty much always been in the possession of common people.
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