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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 10-02-15, 08:09 PM   #26
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Still can't handle that someone thinks the iwatch is a useless piece of tech, eh?
I never cared about your opinion on the Apple Watch (or anything). Just your attitude.
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Old 10-02-15, 08:42 PM   #27
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by jjcool View Post
Do you mean a form 4473?
For reference: https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download

Let's see, what do we have here...

Questions 4, 5, 10a and 10b are unnecessary.

Question 13 redundant except in limited circumstances.

Otherwise it seems pretty straightforward.
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Old 10-02-15, 09:10 PM   #28
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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I never cared about your opinion on the Apple Watch (or anything). Just your attitude.
I don't care.
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Old 10-02-15, 10:24 PM   #29
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by Jason View Post
For reference: https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download

Let's see, what do we have here...

Questions 4, 5, 10a and 10b are unnecessary.

Question 13 redundant except in limited circumstances.

Otherwise it seems pretty straightforward.
You don't think those questions are necessary. Why is that.

4 and 5 aren't necessary, so why should #6 be necessary.
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Old 10-02-15, 11:20 PM   #30
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Let's not call off the discussion. Fact is - change for the better comes slow. Gay marriage and marijuana was the discussion for a very long time. And nobody really thought it would be legalized. But you have to push and shove and make it happen.

I think that organized and efficient big data will be the next step. Get cross-state data homogenized. Every gun must be registered. Close the "gun show" loopholes. Make it a pain in the ass to get a license. Make it a bigger pain in the ass to get a conceal carry permit. Force safety training classes (and charge $500ea to the attendees), similar to how the DMV tests you for a driver's license.
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Old 10-03-15, 12:02 AM   #31
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Not that I disagree, but...How many weapons that were used in mass killings...were bought directly from a gunshow dealer.

Just curious, as the last string of recent murders have been legal purchases.

The things which were critical and pivotal, have been the social media posts of hatred towards others, warnings of upcoming slaughter, and other behaviors which were not necessarily illegal.

And why are you making safety classes so expensive. That's like saying abortion is legal, but just pay the $10,000 mandatory processing fee to your local doctor's office.

You will not be able to register every gun. You should talk to the border folks about how many weapons come across with drugs which are seized...and how many they estimate are missed. It would be akin to saying let's register all marijuana plants in the US.

Why are you making it difficult for law-abiding citizens to get guns?

What you're doing, is forcing an ever bigger black market for weapons, creating even more weapons which will not be registered.

Making things difficult for law-abiding citizens to obtain...has historically gone terribly wrong for LE and the federal government, as well as MORE CRIME due to the black market factor.
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Old 10-03-15, 04:52 AM   #32
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Hey, if the US is good at one thing it's getting as many people behind bars as possible. That's what they did in NY. With the stroke of a pen they created thousands of new felons. Now if we could just get them where they belong.
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Old 10-03-15, 08:51 AM   #33
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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I think that organized and efficient big data will be the next step. Get cross-state data homogenized. Every gun must be registered. Close the "gun show" loopholes. Make it a pain in the ass to get a license. Make it a bigger pain in the ass to get a conceal carry permit. Force safety training classes (and charge $500ea to the attendees), similar to how the DMV tests you for a driver's license.
What is this "Gun show loophole" that you speak of? I've been to numerous gun shows and have yet been able to buy a gun without paperwork and a call to the state. The rest of your suggestions seem to be simply further infringing on a right that is specifically spelled out in the bill of rights. It is already a pain in the ass to get a permit. It is already more expensive than it should be. I do agree that there should be more required training, but charging everyone $500 each is ridiculous.
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Old 10-03-15, 09:06 AM   #34
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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What is this "Gun show loophole" that you speak of? I've been to numerous gun shows and have yet been able to buy a gun without paperwork and a call to the state. The rest of your suggestions seem to be simply further infringing on a right that is specifically spelled out in the bill of rights. It is already a pain in the ass to get a permit. It is already more expensive than it should be. I do agree that there should be more required training, but charging everyone $500 each is ridiculous.
While I wouldn't say it is a "loophole" there are quite a few private person to private person transactions that occur at gun shows. I worked with ATF years ago on a task force that was observing these transactions at a local gun show. When we observed a transaction that we deemed suspicious, we reported it so the people could be stopped to ensure it was not an illegal transaction. As I said, it is not really a loophole, more of an illegal transaction, but maybe that is what he is talking about.
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Old 10-03-15, 10:01 AM   #35
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Yes. That's what I was talking about. Didn't know they were "illegal" transactions. But it's a somewhat common term.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole
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Old 10-03-15, 11:10 AM   #36
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Do these transactions only occur at gun shows.
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Old 10-03-15, 11:11 AM   #37
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

No. They also occur at shady hotels.
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Old 10-03-15, 12:28 PM   #38
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

That's a great political ad. Use it!
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Old 10-03-15, 12:48 PM   #39
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

"Gun show loophole" is simply a media nickname for a person to person sale. In many states this is 100% LEGAL and does not require a Gun Show in order to happen, the nick name and tying the process to a Gun Show is a media scare tactic that apparently works LOL booga booga fear the gun show (gun shows comply with state and local laws, more precise than you could imagine)

This is the basic problem with the anti gun crowd, they don't understand important details, they just know gun sales must be STOPPED! OMG!


I have to laugh at the media portrayal of the "Gun Show Loophole", it looks like dumb criminals believe it is something it isn't, I would say that several gun shows I have been to in recent years, there are cops hauling people away in handcuffs, I can only make assumptions as to why, I am going to guess some thought there was a real loophole they could use to illegally purchase a gun there, NOT
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Old 10-03-15, 12:51 PM   #40
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Make it a bigger pain in the ass to get a conceal carry permit.

Why? What crime would this cut down on? How many CCW permit holders have committed crimes with a concealed weapon?

You are just creating more sitting duck victims by taking away the ability for a law abiding citizen to get a legal permit to carry.

or have I missed the headlines somewhere that CCW holders are also mostly criminals?
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Old 10-03-15, 12:53 PM   #41
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

FWIW, when I worked the task force, it was mainly about keeping guns of other criminals hands. Many of the transactions we of Hispanic males purchasing many guns and transporting them back to Mexico. So it was an illegal sale by the individual selling and and an illegal purchase by the guy from Mexico because they were not a legal citizen.
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Old 10-03-15, 01:22 PM   #42
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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So, our mission:

Getting weapons out of the hands of people who are formulating plans to mass murder.

Is that a fair assessment of the question.
I disagree. The question should be "Why are people formulating plans to mass murder?" and further "How can we identify them and get them the mental health treatment they need?"
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Old 10-03-15, 01:36 PM   #43
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Sounds good to me but some will want the weapon aspect. Otherwise, I like your message.

Last edited by DVD Polizei; 10-03-15 at 03:38 PM. Reason: My weapon discharged.
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Old 10-03-15, 02:49 PM   #44
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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You are just creating more sitting duck victims by taking away the ability for a law abiding citizen to get a legal permit to carry.
That's the big divide. You have half a population who believes that they're going to be raped or robbed at gunpoint. And then you have half a population who doesn't worry about that in the least, and will go through their whole lives without needing to protect themselves with a gun (which is where I fit in).

I've always lived in virtually zero-crime communities. That probably has a lot to do with how I feel.
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Old 10-03-15, 03:45 PM   #45
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

And most gun owners have never actually defended themselves with the weapon they purchased, either.

It goes both ways, you know.

But you're trying to say because you will never use or need a gun...that everyone else should follow your lead. Because I don't feel the need to do X, everyone else shouldn't need to do X and put as many barriers as possible for everyone to do X, because it won't affect me.

I'm sure there are many things you like to do and those things you would want the freedom to do without unreasonable obstacles, just because others have opposing views.
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Old 10-03-15, 05:17 PM   #46
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

You can discuss mental health issues, more gun control, less gun control,... until you're blue in the face, you'll never get anywhere on this issue because you refuse to address the root cause: the gun culture/unhealthy fascination for weapons/war/military. Might as well ask Brazilians to give up soccer.
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Old 10-03-15, 11:01 PM   #47
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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That's the big divide. You have half a population who believes that they're going to be raped or robbed at gunpoint. And then you have half a population who doesn't worry about that in the least, and will go through their whole lives without needing to protect themselves with a gun (which is where I fit in).
I have a different point of view. The more CCW permits that are issued in a specific region, is directly proportional to a decrease in certain types of crimes in that same region.

**YOU** do not have to have a CCW in order for your community to benefit from their reasonable issue.

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I've always lived in virtually zero-crime communities. That probably has a lot to do with how I feel.
I am willing to bet that I grew up in a more crime free community than you did. It really has no bearing on this discussion.
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Old 10-03-15, 11:20 PM   #48
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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I am willing to bet that I grew up in a more crime free community than you did. It really has no bearing on this discussion.
I think it does. Because the "protection" of owning a gun is all about perception. People who don't feel the threat are a lot less likely to feel like they need to own a gun.
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Old 10-04-15, 12:26 AM   #49
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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You can discuss mental health issues, more gun control, less gun control,... until you're blue in the face, you'll never get anywhere on this issue because you refuse to address the root cause: the gun culture/unhealthy fascination for weapons/war/military. Might as well ask Brazilians to give up soccer.
The issue is violence. Violent behavior will still be there after you take a gun out of somebody's hands.

Do you cure obesity by banning donuts? Nope. Because that is stupid.

Amazingly, some think the same with guns.

Let's deal with the real issue here, not what politicians have told you for decades over.
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Old 10-04-15, 10:58 AM   #50
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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The issue is violence. Violent behavior will still be there after you take a gun out of somebody's hands.
But a gun makes it easy to kill. In fact, it's one of the most effective ways of killing other people. That's what a gun is designed specifically to do. That's its whole purpose.

You could eat one donut a month and be perfectly healthy. But if you shoot one person a month, that's bad.
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