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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 01-12-15, 12:26 PM   #1
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Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

In the public service spirit of saving the "Muslim terrorists slaughter innocents threads", trying this new thread so that those who insist upon getting in those other threads will have a place to vent.

I'll start off with a simple observation:

Someone making claims of being a Christian cannot habitually, repeatedly, & willingly make a credible profession of faith while violating the tenets of Christianity that are pretty much universally accepted by all claiming to be Christian churches. There are those, of course, who distort the message of the Bible to use as a license for continuous, repetitive, willful sinning after supposedly becoming a new person in Christ without expressing any remorse or desire to change (and seeing none), but those ideas are not consistent with the scriptures (and ignore the repercussions which followed such actions by those who committed them in the Bible).

On the other hand, the only qualification for being an atheist in non-belief in deities. That's the sum total of what it takes to be an atheist. One can be the biggest philanthropist the world has ever seen and be a consistent atheist; one can be the biggest mass murderer the world has ever known and likewise be a consistent atheist.
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Old 01-12-15, 12:40 PM   #2
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

I agree with both of your observations. Now we need to determine which of the "tenets of Christianity are universally accepted by all claiming to be Christian churches". Aside from faith in Jesus as the son of God and savior of all mankind, I'm not sure how many others you'll find are universally accepted.
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Old 01-12-15, 12:55 PM   #3
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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Originally Posted by Bandoman View Post
I agree with both of your observations. Now we need to determine which of the "tenets of Christianity are universally accepted by all claiming to be Christian churches". Aside from faith in Jesus as the son of God and savior of all mankind, I'm not sure how many others you'll find are universally accepted.
Exactly! Case and point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessin...stian_churches

But Christians try and use the "no true Scottsman fallacy" all the time. When it gets really ridiculous is when the one trying to fly that crap is actually in the minority, within their own religion, with their backwards and bigoted views. Can you imagine a Christian still trying to use the bible to support segregation like they used to at the turn of the 20th centrury?
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Old 01-12-15, 03:05 PM   #4
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

"Let the hate flow through you!"
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Old 01-12-15, 03:15 PM   #5
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

So what is the majority Christian opinion about the following:

Death penalty
Birth control
War

This is my own curiosity.
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Old 01-12-15, 03:45 PM   #6
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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So what is the majority Christian opinion about the following:

Death penalty
Birth control
War
You'll get the whole range... most Protestant Churches don't have official positions on things that aren't core theology (The Catholic Church does). I'm non-denominational (probably fall under the evangelical label, but I don't care to use it, lol) so I'll just speak about that group.

Death Penalty is split, probably leaning in favor of. Birth Control isn't an issue except for a couple of "morning after" types. War is an unfortunate reality, should not be rushed into... but is sometimes a necessity. Again, there is no definitive Christian/Non-Christian views to these... it's up to the individual.
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Old 01-12-15, 04:31 PM   #7
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

I thought you had mentioned being Catholic in prior threads?
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Old 01-12-15, 05:13 PM   #8
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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Originally Posted by Bandoman View Post
I agree with both of your observations. Now we need to determine which of the "tenets of Christianity are universally accepted by all claiming to be Christian churches". Aside from faith in Jesus as the son of God and savior of all mankind, I'm not sure how many others you'll find are universally accepted.
Whoa! So that is universally accepted????
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Old 01-12-15, 05:15 PM   #9
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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Exactly! Case and point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessin...stian_churches

But Christians try and use the "no true Scottsman fallacy" all the time. When it gets really ridiculous is when the one trying to fly that crap is actually in the minority, within their own religion, with their backwards and bigoted views. Can you imagine a Christian still trying to use the bible to support segregation like they used to at the turn of the 20th centrury?
Christians also generalize all the time. All of them. Fucking dicks.
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Old 01-12-15, 05:23 PM   #10
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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Old 01-12-15, 05:37 PM   #11
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
In the public service spirit of saving the "Muslim terrorists slaughter innocents threads", trying this new thread so that those who insist upon getting in those other threads will have a place to vent.

I'll start off with a simple observation:

Someone making claims of being a Christian cannot habitually, repeatedly, & willingly make a credible profession of faith while violating the tenets of Christianity that are pretty much universally accepted by all claiming to be Christian churches. There are those, of course, who distort the message of the Bible to use as a license for continuous, repetitive, willful sinning after supposedly becoming a new person in Christ without expressing any remorse or desire to change (and seeing none), but those ideas are not consistent with the scriptures (and ignore the repercussions which followed such actions by those who committed them in the Bible).

On the other hand, the only qualification for being an atheist in non-belief in deities. That's the sum total of what it takes to be an atheist. One can be the biggest philanthropist the world has ever seen and be a consistent atheist; one can be the biggest mass murderer the world has ever known and likewise be a consistent atheist.
I guess I'm an atheist/agnostic, but honestly I don't spend a moment of my time thinking about it. What if you just don't care about any of this?

You are comparing a religion with something that is not religion. Atheism isn't necessarily meant to check the "spirituality" box for someone. Some people just don't have that box, nor do they need it. You seem to want others to play by your rules but many of them aren't even playing the same game...or any game at all.
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Old 01-12-15, 06:10 PM   #12
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

What percentage of threads on this forum could this thread be merged into successfully?
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Old 01-12-15, 06:15 PM   #13
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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Originally Posted by Draven View Post
You are comparing a religion with something that is not religion. Atheism isn't necessarily meant to check the "spirituality" box for someone. Some people just don't have that box, nor do they need it. You seem to want others to play by your rules but many of them aren't even playing the same game...or any game at all.
Atheism is a lack of religion, but sometimes, it is easier to think of it as just another religion. It is the "none of the above" box in a comprehensive list of world religions, but in the database sense of "everyone must check a box," it is just another box.
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Old 01-12-15, 06:15 PM   #14
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

Well see, that's the thing. Because Christianity has a moral philosophy, you can judge Christians by their adherence to that philosophy, and compare that philosophy against other moral philosophies.

Atheism is an amoral concept. Atheism is no more and no less than a lack of belief in a deity or deities. It does not have a moral component, so there really isn't much point in comparing it against a moral system. Now, there are moral philosophies that do not incorporate a deity or deities, and those can be compared against various religions, and some of those systems may be used by some atheists in place of religious moral imperatives, but atheism in and of itself is not one of those systems.

However, it's pretty clear that creekdipper sees this as a moral failing of atheism, despite there being no moral component to it, and lambasts atheism and atheists as a result.

And for the record, I'm like Bando, an agnostic atheist. I do not believe there is a god or gods due to lack of sufficient evidence, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and thus I cannot KNOW that there is no god or gods. One thing I feel pretty strongly about is that if there is a god or gods, no human religion has gotten its/their wants, needs, or demands correctly interpreted. And if any religion ever did, like a cosmic game of telephone, the religion has changed so much since its inception that it would be unrecognizable to its originators.
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Old 01-12-15, 06:37 PM   #15
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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And for the record, I'm like Bando, an agnostic atheist. I do not believe there is a god or gods due to lack of sufficient evidence, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and thus I cannot KNOW that there is no god or gods. One thing I feel pretty strongly about is that if there is a god or gods, no human religion has gotten its/their wants, needs, or demands correctly interpreted. And if any religion ever did, like a cosmic game of telephone, the religion has changed so much since its inception that it would be unrecognizable to its originators.
This is a great point. It is completely wrong, but for none of the reasons you think.
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Old 01-12-15, 06:40 PM   #16
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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Atheism is a lack of religion, but sometimes, it is easier to think of it as just another religion. It is the "none of the above" box in a comprehensive list of world religions, but in the database sense of "everyone must check a box," it is just another box.
I would say that atheism CAN BE a lack of religion. There are some pretty serious evangelical atheists out there. People that pretty much have devoted their lives to it. Most anything can become a religion. Just need a set of beliefs and followers. What you worship is immaterial. Think about PeTA, those against GMOs, many environmentalists, etc. I'm sure they don't see themselves as being part of a religion, but many of them act no differently than how I see many supposedly religious people act. It walks and acts like a duck, no matter what people prefer to call it.
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Old 01-12-15, 07:03 PM   #17
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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This is a great point. It is completely wrong, but for none of the reasons you think.
I'm familiar with the saying, "If God seems distant, guess who moved?"

Is this the similar observation, "If God's message is garbled, there must be a bad connection at your end"?
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Old 01-12-15, 07:05 PM   #18
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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I would say that atheism CAN BE a lack of religion. There are some pretty serious evangelical atheists out there. People that pretty much have devoted their lives to it. Most anything can become a religion. Just need a set of beliefs and followers. What you worship is immaterial. Think about PeTA, those against GMOs, many environmentalists, etc. I'm sure they don't see themselves as being part of a religion, but many of them act no differently than how I see many supposedly religious people act. It walks and acts like a duck, no matter what people prefer to call it.
I think that only shows one can be a zealot without having religious belief, as those causes don't really have a belief in a deity, just zealotry towards a cause. There is a fine line between "having zeal" and being a zealot. But, yes, there are some evangelical atheists out there; I think they just enjoy attempting to excessively control what others can do, and their actions are more about their attempts at control than their beliefs. Of course, engraving the Ten Commandments on every wall, praying before school and before every meeting, etc may demonstrate some attempts at control too. It is more a case of extremists waging war on each other over control while the rest of us suffer.
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Old 01-12-15, 07:49 PM   #19
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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This is a great point. It is completely wrong, but for none of the reasons you think.
I would love to hear what the reasons for it being wrong are.
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Old 01-12-15, 08:01 PM   #20
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

My religious on non religious beliefs: I believe something(s) is/are responsible for everything, including us, but I don't worship it/them. I don't believe in any of the man made religions and can accept that I don't know how or why we are here and that I am not supposed to. I do hope that there is something after this.
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Old 01-12-15, 08:10 PM   #21
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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“I care not for the girdings of superstition, for superstition is the bitter enemy of knowledge & true morality. Yes; it has come to this! Men who openly confess that they can form no idea of God, & only know him through created things, of which they know not the causes, can unblushingly accuse philosophers of Atheism.”
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Old 01-12-15, 08:18 PM   #22
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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However, it's pretty clear that creekdipper sees this as a moral failing of atheism, despite there being no moral component to it, and lambasts atheism and atheists as a result.
Not quoting your entire excellent post, mallet (but recommend others read it)...just want to address this one point.

Looking at so many posts criticizing religion in the recent "Muslim Attacks!" threads, you see many references to the dangers presented by Christians (often bolstered by the "usual suspect" studies of "affiliations" of incarcerated individuals...which make for an interesting discussion/refutation, sometimes even within those studies).

I'll say that your read of my conclusions is correct, and here's why (in case it wasn't clear earlier): the Christian has a definite framework (even if it's as simple as the Ten Commandments) that is not just a suggested guideline but rather a set of required standards. I'll skip the sarcasm and not say that atheists need no such standards (being perfect, incapable-of-being-tempted-to-violate-personal-principles people ) by acknowledging that Christians can and are tempted to violate principles (or, at least, they face temptations or occasions to sin). Unlike an atheist, a Christian has sets of principles that go beyond any personal principles to fall back upon. I'm sure that atheists would agree that people may choose actions which they later regret (either "seemed like a good idea at the time" or better judgment/principles were ignored). That would appear, it would seem, to all honest people to be a universal human condition.

Any Christian who maintains that his/her belief system makes him impervious to temptation disregards biblical warnings to the prideful to take heed, lest he/she should fall. But it honestly seems that many...indeed, most...atheist posters here tout superiority in their disbelief as a guide for "morality" (ambiguous though that term may be to atheists, a fact to which you attest above).

It is ridiculous for any Christian to maintain that all atheists are the worst people they could possibly be, that all atheists are criminals, that atheists cannot live lives within the bounds of society's laws and can frequently do acts considered "good" by Christian standards (although the definition of 'good' act can be debated depending upon motives, at least from the standpoint of God). Atheists can commit selfless acts with wonderful benefits for others, as I have personally witnessed.

However...I still submit that the vast majority of those who commit antisocial acts on Saturday night (or any other night of the week) are not likely to be among the regular churchgoers who actually live as though God exists and means for His commandments to be taken seriously. Yes, Christians commit immoral (and sometimes illegal) acts, and some are in jails and/or prisons. But a Christian has definite guidelines for "moral behavior" and reasons that go beyond personal motivations, family considerations, and social pressures that motivate the Christian to "do good acts."

An atheist, on the other hand, has no such motivation. Playing "devil's advocate" (but not commenting on how apropos the term might be ), I'm sure that atheists might point out that they have the advantage of having no restraint on doing things their intellect (programming) tells them are good...such as approving of "same-sex marriage" (even if their programming may/may not extend that privilege to other instances of "unequal treatment" regarding marriage). But that specific discussion is better suited for other threads where it has already been discussed repeatedly.

At any rate, based upon many decades of personal and professional interactions with the churched and the unchurched (that is, non-church-goers compared to those who are faithful attendees/members of churches that actually rely upon the Bible for their precepts), I don't lock our doors because the churchgoers are out looking to break into our house (like the person who attempted a home invasion a couple of Christmases ago). It's the people who don't believe that God exists (or who live as though He doesn't exist regardless of what they "claim" to believe). I'd wager that a fan wearing a Yankees cap in Boston has a lot more to fear from Red Sox fans than he/she does from regular attendees of Bible-believing churches. And I'd wager any amount of money that, if you personally investigated those arrested for crimes in you area, you'd find that the vast majority of those convicted (or even accused) of crimes are among the regular church-goers. That's been my personal experience of 60 years as a church-goer, community member, public school teacher, friend of law enforcement people, volunteer with underprivileged communities (tutor in projects, Literacy council volunteer, deacon, Big Brothers/Sisters coach, Boys & Girls Club helper, nursing home volunteer, etc.) and spouse of someone who has made medical mission trips for U.S. disaster relief & worked as a registered nurse & crisis pregnancy worker (in addition to our working directly with needy families.

Put another way...the regular churchgoers in a faithful church that exercises church discipline are under authority that provides accountability. The atheist is on his/her own (and, yes, I understand that all DVDTalk atheists need nobody else to "make them" be "good").
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Old 01-12-15, 08:19 PM   #23
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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When you say that if I deny, that the operations of seeing, hearing, attending, wishing, &c., can be ascribed to God, or that they exist in him in any eminent fashion, you do not know what sort of God mine is ; I suspect that you believe there is no greater perfection than such as can be explained by the aforesaid attributes. I am not astonished ; for I believe that, if a triangle could speak, it would say, in like manner, that God is eminently triangular, while a circle would say that the divine nature is eminently circular. Thus each would ascribe to God its own attributes, would assume itself to be like God, and look on everything else as ill-shaped.
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Old 01-12-15, 08:19 PM   #24
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

So Spinoza authored your 'bible'?
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Old 01-12-15, 08:21 PM   #25
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I do not think it necessary for salvation to know Christ according to the flesh : but with regard to the Eternal Son of God, that is the Eternal Wisdom of God, which has manifested itself in all things and especially in the human mind, and above all in Christ Jesus, the case is far otherwise.
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