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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 02-29-16, 06:14 PM   #1251
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
Too bad. When the military commits systematic war crimes, everyone in the military is morally culpable for it, even if they don't directly participate.

What the hell are you talking about? The Soviet Army captured Berlin. After lecturing me about slandering American soldiers, you attribute the mass rapes in Berlin to G.I.s?

What if it were the Trail of Tears (which also involved concentration camps), or Wounded Knee, or any of the numerous other massacres carried out by American forces against the natives? Can we compare that to Nazi Germany, or would that offend your sensitivities as well?
Responding to a few isolated comments quoted above.

(1) Since the military represents the country, ALL citizens are technically culpable for what some in the military do (using your logic). That means (again, using your logic) that you & I are both guilty of war crimes.

(2) I'm well aware that it was the Soviet soldiers who went on a barbaric rampage of rape during the Fall of Berlin. I was at fault for mentioning that specific period; I was thinking more about the aftermath during which Berlin was divided into zones controlled by the Allies. It's a well-established fact that G.I.'s bartered food for sex from starving frauleins...including very young girls. You're right, though, in that a better moral equivalency would be the Japanese vs. the Soviets (although I'm not sure that even the Soviets in most cases came anywhere close to the barbarisms committed when Nanking fell). A better point would be equating the atrocities committed by the Japanese with the American G.I.'s who took advantage of war-devasted areas of Europe to extort sex. I chose a bad analogy, but maybe this will illustrate the point a little better.

Presumably, not all Japanese soldiers committed rape, murder, and horrible perversions of the most heinous types (if you haven't read about Nanking in detail, it takes a strong stomach). Not all KKK members lynched people. Not all American G.I.'s took advantage of starving females. And, by the way, not all Indians raped, tortured, and mutilated whites, either. But taking groups which represent the worst of humankind (KKK, the SS) and setting them up in a direct comparison with groups that have some bad apples (i.e., all groups) but otherwise do good things is, IMO, extremely unfair.

To say that police are trained to systemically view certain races as "the enemy" and to systemically violate their rights or single them out without cause is saying that the black police officers are either brainwashed or are acting in ways detrimental to themselves. And there are a lot of black police officers.

(3) As far as "offending my sensibilities," you are making my point for me when you reference specific incidents and eras such as the forced relocation and massacres of Indian tribes. That is the point...specific events can be compared; blanket condemnations are unfair. To sound like a broken record, context is all-important.

And I will point you again to the example I posted of the rookie police officer on her first shift who was killed last Saturday...shot by a black man (his race wasn't mentioned in earlier accounts; just saw his picture in today's paper). The guy also killed his wife and seriously wounded two other police officers.

Again...would you think it appropriate to display a picture of a black man shooting a white police woman (particularly a white female) without some context? Wouldn't that likely be viewed as "racist" by many (including many here) even though it accurately portrays a historical event (and not just an isolated incident, either)? Isn't it likely that a lot of viewers would feel that such an image sends the wrong message and appears to be using a negative racial stereotype?

Last edited by creekdipper; 02-29-16 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 02-29-16, 06:32 PM   #1252
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Yeah in his second book...we will find out people were forced at gun point to take crack.

Is there a 9/11 conspiracy theory section in there?
Yeah no shit. I'm no fan of the drug war but that guy's assertions are outrageous.
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Old 02-29-16, 06:36 PM   #1253
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by A-aron View Post
You know...I'm probably more sensitive about this than I normally would be, but a close friend - who is a cop - was responding to a domestic disturbance call and was ambushed ... now he is clinging to life.

So ... from the bottom of my white privileged heart .. go fuck yourself.
Wow a direct personal attack on a member.

A-aron So cool

Can you please post a picture of your "I have personal problems that aren't even relevant to the conversation and I like to pretend that makes me immune to the the rules" card? I've always wanted to see one.
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Old 02-29-16, 07:25 PM   #1254
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Yeah in his second book...we will find out people were forced at gun point to take crack.

Is there a 9/11 conspiracy theory section in there?
His point is selective targeting of black areas.
That IS race politics.
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Old 02-29-16, 07:36 PM   #1255
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by A-aron View Post
You know...I'm probably more sensitive about this than I normally would be, but a close friend - who is a cop - was responding to a domestic disturbance call and was ambushed ... now he is clinging to life.
Is that the shooting in Woodbridge? Regardless, I hope your friend makes a full recovery.
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Old 02-29-16, 07:50 PM   #1256
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Yeah in his second book...we will find out people were forced at gun point to take crack.

Is there a 9/11 conspiracy theory section in there?
As someone who grew up in a neighborhood that was ravaged by the crack epidemic in the 80's all I'll say is.........fuck it, never mind.
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Old 02-29-16, 09:01 PM   #1257
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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As someone who grew up in a neighborhood that was ravaged by the crack epidemic in the 80's all I'll say is.........fuck it, never mind.
Since you grew up around that would you mind describing what it was like? In my area during the 90s it was mostly methamphetamines and weed being used and sold. I don't think cocaine was big around here till around the 2000s along with popping pills.
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Old 02-29-16, 09:26 PM   #1258
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

I can tell you what it was like. I grew up in Long Beach, CA in the '80s. Cops carved out these cushy jobs for themselves called D.A.R.E. where they hung out on elementary school campuses, lectured students, played basketball, and never had to do anything risky at all. Then in 1992 the city burned down. Property values went to zero. And they all retired on sweet pensions. Our tax dollars at work
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Old 03-01-16, 01:18 AM   #1259
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

"Other" minorities note the lack of focus on them at Oscars (except for stereotypical "joke" reference to American-Asians):

http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/osca...z&ocid=SL5EDHP

Excerpt:

NEW YORK (AP) — As Felix Sanchez watched the Academy Awards ceremony, he kept wondering when all the talk of diversity from host Chris Rock and others would itself become more diverse.

"I was shocked that Latinos and Asians and Native Americans were not a part of this conversation," says Sanchez, chairman and co-founder of the National Hispanic Foundation for the Arts, based in Washington, D.C.

"They have this idea that the paradigm is still black-white and they need to expand the conversation. That it was so narrow is indefensible."

The all-white list of acting nominees led to widespread criticism in the weeks leading up to Sunday night's show and to the hashtag movement OscarsSoWhite. Rock was praised for introducing an unusual level of candor about race to the telecast, but his comments were almost exclusively about blacks, and the show overall made only brief references to other minorities.
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Old 03-01-16, 07:09 AM   #1260
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

^There are Asians and Indians living in America?
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Old 03-01-16, 08:48 AM   #1261
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by brayzie View Post
Since you grew up around that would you mind describing what it was like? In my area during the 90s it was mostly methamphetamines and weed being used and sold. I don't think cocaine was big around here till around the 2000s along with popping pills.
I grew up in Washington Heights. It is a mostly Hispanic neighborhood north of Harlem in upper Manhattan right by the George Wasgington bridge. In the mid 80's it was the largest crack distribution center in the northeast. There was a lot of criminal activity going on in the streets and the sad thing is that some of the people I went to school with were involved. Some became dealers, others became addicts and today most are either dead or in prison. There were shootouts over turf in which bystanders would get hit. Lots of people would come over the bridge from the New Jersey suburbs to get their drugs. Some would drive and then leave home on foot because they swapped their fancy vehicles for drugs. Even the police were not immune from the illegal activity. They would be payed off by rival drug gangs to shake down the competition and steal their money & drugs. In the summer of 1992 a dirty cop shot a dealer in the back who refused to be shaken down and planted a gun on him. This caused a six day riot not even a month after the LA riots.

Today Washington Heights is a different place, the crime has gone down drastically due to gentrification. My mother still lives there in her rent controlled apartment and has to constantly deal with the pain in the ass landlord trying to get her to move so he can make a fortune.
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Old 03-01-16, 10:13 AM   #1262
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Responding to a few isolated comments quoted above.

(1) Since the military represents the country, ALL citizens are technically culpable for what some in the military do (using your logic). That means (again, using your logic) that you & I are both guilty of war crimes.
We are morally culpable for them, absolutely.

Quote:
Presumably, not all Japanese soldiers committed rape, murder, and horrible perversions of the most heinous types (if you haven't read about Nanking in detail, it takes a strong stomach). Not all KKK members lynched people. Not all American G.I.'s took advantage of starving females. And, by the way, not all Indians raped, tortured, and mutilated whites, either. But taking groups which represent the worst of humankind (KKK, the SS) and setting them up in a direct comparison with groups that have some bad apples (i.e., all groups) but otherwise do good things is, IMO, extremely unfair.
And the difference between a group that is morally corrupt and one that has a few bad apples is that in the former bad things happen as a matter of policy, whereas in the latter it's due to individuals who receive appropriate punishment for their actions.

And the US military in Vietnam was acting on policy. Soldiers were encouraged to treat anyone who ran away from them as a VC; the Air Force sent pilots on missions they knew would result in civilian deaths. And in the case of Lt. Calley, he was only put on trial after his actions were reported in the press, and his punishment was an absolute joke. Any Nazi who did what he did would've been hanged for war crimes; Calley was given house arrest and then pardoned. That's a systemic problem, not a bad apple.

Quote:
(3) As far as "offending my sensibilities," you are making my point for me when you reference specific incidents and eras such as the forced relocation and massacres of Indian tribes. That is the point...specific events can be compared; blanket condemnations are unfair. To sound like a broken record, context is all-important.
What context justifies the War on Drugs as part of an electoral strategy to appeal to racist Southerners?

Quote:
And I will point you again to the example I posted of the rookie police officer on her first shift who was killed last Saturday...shot by a black man (his race wasn't mentioned in earlier accounts; just saw his picture in today's paper). The guy also killed his wife and seriously wounded two other police officers.

Again...would you think it appropriate to display a picture of a black man shooting a white police woman (particularly a white female) without some context? Wouldn't that likely be viewed as "racist" by many (including many here) even though it accurately portrays a historical event (and not just an isolated incident, either)? Isn't it likely that a lot of viewers would feel that such an image sends the wrong message and appears to be using a negative racial stereotype?
But here you're talking about a specific incident, whereas the school poster was addressing the generic -- police officers killing black men on the street. Something that happens routinely and is driven by American drug policies, and the people being vilified choose to be part of an organization that enforces such policies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
I grew up in Washington Heights. It is a mostly Hispanic neighborhood north of Harlem in upper Manhattan right by the George Wasgington bridge. In the mid 80's it was the largest crack distribution center in the northeast. There was a lot of criminal activity going on in the streets and the sad thing is that some of the people I went to school with were involved. Some became dealers, others became addicts and today most are either dead or in prison. There were shootouts over turf in which bystanders would get hit. Lots of people would come over the bridge from the New Jersey suburbs to get their drugs. Some would drive and then leave home on foot because they swapped their fancy vehicles for drugs.
And when the press covered the situation, of course it was all about gangbangers and welfare moms with crack babies, and no mention of suburban drug addicts or the ways in which drug policy drove the crack epidemic.
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Old 03-01-16, 10:14 AM   #1263
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
Is that the shooting in Woodbridge? Regardless, I hope your friend makes a full recovery.
Yes, and thanks. I see in my quickly-typed message I said he when it should have been "she." Like I said, I was probably in a more emotional state (it was her first day on force), and it pissed me off to see cops referred to as a pig.

The image presented was clearly likening a white cop to a white-sheeted klan member. It's utter bullshit. There are bad people in every walk of like.

Still, if it isn't acceptable to call a black thug by the "n" word, then it isn't acceptable to call a cop a pig.
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Old 03-01-16, 11:17 AM   #1264
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
And when the press covered the situation, of course it was all about gangbangers and welfare moms with crack babies, and no mention of suburban drug addicts or the ways in which drug policy drove the crack epidemic.
Exactly

Quote:
Originally Posted by A-aron View Post
Still, if it isn't acceptable to call a black thug by the "n" word, then it isn't acceptable to call a cop a pig.
Talk about false equivalence.
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Old 03-01-16, 11:24 AM   #1265
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by A-aron View Post
Yes, and thanks. I see in my quickly-typed message I said he when it should have been "she." Like I said, I was probably in a more emotional state (it was her first day on force), and it pissed me off to see cops referred to as a pig.
Oh, shit. When you said "he" I was hoping your friend survivied. Sorry for your loss -- that's a heartbreaking story.

Quote:
The image presented was clearly likening a white cop to a white-sheeted klan member. It's utter bullshit. There are bad people in every walk of like.

Still, if it isn't acceptable to call a black thug by the "n" word, then it isn't acceptable to call a cop a pig.
Agreed. There are definitely some bad apples among the police, and I think police are too quick to cover for each other when they shouldn't (a natural, human reaction), but the overwhelming majority of officers are good people trying to make the world a better place.

All of that said, while I think a black kid is wrong to equate a police officer to a KKK member, I can see why his experiences might lead him to believe they are. There was a story involving a cop in DC about three months ago who broke up a group of loitering kids by having a dance-off with one of them. This is what the kid said:

Quote:
For Taylor, she said the dance-off marked her first positive interaction with police officers in her neighborhood. She has six sisters and one brother and, according to Taylor, all have been arrested or detained for non-violent offenses like breaking curfew. Taylor, who said shes never been arrested, recalls her siblings saying that the officers acted unnecessarily rude and rough during their arrests.

Those experiences, Taylor said, had shaped her perception of police officers.

I thought all cops were cruel because thats how I saw them, Taylor said. Ive now seen there are good cops out there.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ive-dance-off/

When all you ever see is the bad, you start to think the bad is all there is.
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Old 03-01-16, 12:13 PM   #1266
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

The kid who made that drawing sees an equivalence between the police and the KKK. Now a police officer wants the art removed. How is this officer helping this situation? He's only reaffirming to the student that cops are dicks.
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Old 03-01-16, 12:27 PM   #1267
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
The kid who made that drawing sees an equivalence between the police and the KKK. Now a police officer wants the art removed. How is this officer helping this situation? He's only reaffirming to the student that cops are dicks.
And keeping the drawing up is sending the message that it's socially acceptable to equate police with the Ku Klux Klan. Stereotyping and generalizing is okay as long as it's towards a group you don't like.

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Old 03-01-16, 12:34 PM   #1268
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Meh. It's basically a plagiarization anyway of "A Tale of Two Hoodies."
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Old 03-01-16, 12:47 PM   #1269
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
"Other" minorities note the lack of focus on them at Oscars (except for stereotypical "joke" reference to American-Asians):

http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/osca...z&ocid=SL5EDHP

Excerpt:

NEW YORK (AP) As Felix Sanchez watched the Academy Awards ceremony, he kept wondering when all the talk of diversity from host Chris Rock and others would itself become more diverse.

"I was shocked that Latinos and Asians and Native Americans were not a part of this conversation," says Sanchez, chairman and co-founder of the National Hispanic Foundation for the Arts, based in Washington, D.C.

"They have this idea that the paradigm is still black-white and they need to expand the conversation. That it was so narrow is indefensible."

The all-white list of acting nominees led to widespread criticism in the weeks leading up to Sunday night's show and to the hashtag movement OscarsSoWhite. Rock was praised for introducing an unusual level of candor about race to the telecast, but his comments were almost exclusively about blacks, and the show overall made only brief references to other minorities.

Uhm...if you want a piece of the pie...FIGHT FOR IT. Blacks stood up and made noise about this OSCAR issue. Those other groups came in AFTER the fact then bitched because Blacks didn't include them in the fight.

This is something that has happened to Blacks before though. We stand up for Civil Rights first...get beaten, jailed, killed, mocked, etc... and others latch on...get what their particular group wants...advances past Blacks then they join the other side and tell Blacks to go fuck themselves.
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Old 03-01-16, 12:48 PM   #1270
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
The kid who made that drawing sees an equivalence between the police and the KKK. Now a police officer wants the art removed. How is this officer helping this situation? He's only reaffirming to the student that cops are dicks.
Then you're saying it's ok to recruit some kid creating a drawing that shows a Black man killing a police officer and using it the same way as this alleged art.

And would you be a weenie for wanting that Black-Kills-Cop image removed from the same situation as that Cop-Kills-Black image being shown?

Once again, we're using exceptions to convey the perceived majority. Because when lacking enough justification to further one's cause, a person (or group, or political party) must to resort to pushing that exception on the majority, hoping to gain political momentum from the uneducated and disinformed.

---

And as Grundle commented, it's interesting this kid had no sort of discipline when using a gun in his drawings. If this was a different "type" of student, do you really think we'd be discussing art. No, we'd be discussing jail time.
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Old 03-01-16, 12:51 PM   #1271
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Since you grew up around that would you mind describing what it was like? In my area during the 90s it was mostly methamphetamines and weed being used and sold. I don't think cocaine was big around here till around the 2000s along with popping pills.
I remember vividly how things changed in the mid-80s here in Houston, especially after 1984 which some call "the summer of crack". Every corner store always had a pay phone but by 1985 there were 4 or 5 put up by every convenience store and those were always full of people doing deals. We never had a big gang problem until the late 80s and by 1990-91 things had drastically changed and nights in my neighborhood sounded more like war zones. You could drive down any street and in front of the apartments there'd be groups of two, three, or more guys hanging out serving to the people that'd come to score.

I'll never forget the summer of 1988, the city performed a "drug crackdown" and placed a patrol car on every corner in my neighborhood, officers walked each block in pairs with mounted patrols and bicycle officers in the mix, as well. This went on for two weeks, I believe. It stopped the open drug activity - until they cleared out and then it was right back to normal.

I had a friend that lived in the old 4th Ward area which has now been "revitalized" and is called Midtown now. In the 90s there was a block that ran along the neighborhood cemetery and the last three homes were all part of and operated what I can only describe as a drive-thru operation - after 5 o'clock when people would get off of work you'd see 5,6, 7 cars lined-up like at McDonald's, even the older women were serving the customers and these weren't what you'd expect as the average crackhead, there'd be many a lawyer or exec in their company BMW's and Mercedes waiting to score.

Funniest thing out of those years would have to be the old Stop 'n Go at Westpark and Gessner. The store for years was a hot-spot for crack dealing and after several years of dealing with it, the owners installed outdoor speakers which piped-in classical music to drive away the dealers and crackheads. Those were some crazy times.
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Old 03-01-16, 12:57 PM   #1272
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by Giantrobo View Post
Uhm...if you want a piece of the pie...FIGHT FOR IT. Blacks stood up and made noise about this OSCAR issue. Those other groups came in AFTER the fact then bitched because Blacks didn't include them in the fight.(
This Hispanic agrees.
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Old 03-01-16, 01:09 PM   #1273
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by Giantrobo View Post
Uhm...if you want a piece of the pie...FIGHT FOR IT. (
So all this "diversity" talk is just a smokescreen, and it's really about every person for himself/herself?

Isn't that what those in charge say...as long as we get our piece of the pie (or the whole pie), s'all good?

That's certainly one strategy, but the complaints were about all-white nominees (#OscarSoWhite)...and the discussions usually mentioned minorities or "people of color" (in general) being excluded. Sure, a few specifically mentioned the lack of black actors/directors being nominated (although you may have noticed that the inclusion of a Mexican director...the eventual winner, btw...meant that most complaints stuck to the acting categories, probably for that very reason. It would have been a little obvious to complain about only "no black directors").

If it's about each tribe fighting for themselves, then it ought to be stated that way, IMO. The movement should have been called #OscarNoBlack.

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Old 03-01-16, 01:24 PM   #1274
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Mississippi is still burning

Four white men ordered to pay $840,000 for Jim Crow-style killing of Mississippi black man

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fou...id=mailsignout
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Old 03-01-16, 01:31 PM   #1275
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Definitely a good thing. On the surface.

Problem is, they'll be in prison (Dedmon is serving 50 years, Montgomery is serving 19 years, Rice is serving 17 years, and Butler is serving 7 years).

So, is this story saying $840,000/4 = 1 Black Man's life? I would have levied a much higher amount. Just on principle. Second, on punitive example because of this type of crime. Third, because of the number of involved participants.

Also, what about the other six who were co-conspirators. You wanna send a message to our society, you go after all these fuckers. EVERYONE. There were TWO CARLOADS of men who went after Anderson. This is much more than the 4 who were convicted.

Did the feds do a plea deal with the other 6? If so, that sure sends an awesome message.
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