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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 01-22-16, 11:01 AM   #1001
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanshotfirst1138 View Post
I would've just told him "Because this movie sucks."
Tru dat.

Speaking of Oscar diversity, Charlotte Rampling has a different take from Spike & Jada.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/osca...L&ocid=SL5EDHP
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Old 01-22-16, 11:02 AM   #1002
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
The person's objection, I think, was the impression that token multi-racial casting is requisite in nearly all productions these days (particularly in syndicated fantasy series, but elsewhere as well). What did you think about his point about including a "white" character in a show about Zulu warriors?
Imagine you have a set of scales, and on the right side there's eighty grams of sand, while on the left there's only twenty. Now imagine you set about trying to balance weight and somebody came along and asked, "Hey, why do you keep taking sand from the right side and putting it on the left? That's not fair to the right side. You should be taking sand from the left and putting it on the right too." You'd think the guy was an idiot, wouldn't you?

I mean maybe one day when we live in a post-racial society and nobody complains when a black actress gets cast as Hermione in the new Harry Potter play, maybe then we could have white actors take on black roles. But that's not where we are today. There are disproportionately fewer roles for actors of color than whites. Finding places where actors of color can fit into Beowulf alleviates the problem; finding roles for whites in a movie about the Zulu makes it worse. They're not comparable situations.

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Originally Posted by Bandoman View Post
Star Trek 5: The Final Frontier had a Chinese Romulan. I remember a friend asking me "why are there Chinese Romulans?" I had no answers. Today I would say "because diversity exists everywhere" or something like that.
How about, "Why are there white Romulans? Why assume that white people are the default and the Chinese are a deviation?"
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Old 01-22-16, 11:18 AM   #1003
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
Speaking of which, SLJ should have been nominated for that role.
Yes. Never thought there'd be an Uncle Tom role that fucking good. And it's kind of awkward for it too. Great role... not so great....thing to like/remember in history.

Maybe that's why he wasn't nominated? White people awkward about giving an Oscar to an Uncle Tom character?

I dunno.
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Old 01-22-16, 11:45 AM   #1004
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
I mean maybe one day when we live in a post-racial society
Your point about "balancing the scales" is a good one, IMO. I'm sure that some would describe that as a kind of cinematic "affirmative action" necessary to achieve more "balance" although that term is loaded. And it brings up the question as to whether it should be a piece-meal approach (one minority at a time), a "percentage of population" approach, a "squeaky wheel" approach, etc.

The question has been asked here before by many others: Exactly what standards define the point when a "post-racial society" has been reached?
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Old 01-22-16, 11:50 AM   #1005
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by Solid Snake View Post
Yes. Never thought there'd be an Uncle Tom role that fucking good. And it's kind of awkward for it too. Great role... not so great....thing to like/remember in history.

Maybe that's why he wasn't nominated? White people awkward about giving an Oscar to an Uncle Tom character?

I dunno.
Whatever the reason, it's obvious that it was the crackers' faults.

You may be on to something with your musing, though. It's not far-fetched to imagine that socially-liberal "whites" would be reluctant to award such a role, whether out of fear of a media "blacklash" or just cringing at the thought (the way DeCaprio allegedly balked at having his character repeat a certain word over & over). The irony is that, if that were the case, they would be denying an award to a minority member out of fear of appearing racist.
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Old 01-22-16, 03:34 PM   #1006
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Whatever the reason, it's obvious that it was the crackers' faults.

You may be on to something with your musing, though. It's not far-fetched to imagine that socially-liberal "whites" would be reluctant to award such a role, whether out of fear of a media "blacklash" or just cringing at the thought (the way DeCaprio allegedly balked at having his character repeat a certain word over & over). The irony is that, if that were the case, they would be denying an award to a minority member out of fear of appearing racist.
Yet, they gave awards to Black Women who played Slaves and Maids. (See my meme). So I doubt that was it.
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Old 01-22-16, 03:35 PM   #1007
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Tru dat.

Speaking of Oscar diversity, Charlotte Rampling has a different take from Spike & Jada.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/osca...L&ocid=SL5EDHP
Oscar nominee and Academy member Charlotte Rampling said that, I'm shocked.
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Old 01-22-16, 03:37 PM   #1008
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Your point about "balancing the scales" is a good one, IMO. I'm sure that some would describe that as a kind of cinematic "affirmative action" necessary to achieve more "balance" although that term is loaded. And it brings up the question as to whether it should be a piece-meal approach (one minority at a time), a "percentage of population" approach, a "squeaky wheel" approach, etc.

The question has been asked here before by many others: Exactly what standards define the point when a "post-racial society" has been reached?
Slightly off topic to your post but...White Women benefit more from Affirmative Action than any other minority of color.

Quote:
Affirmative action, when it was introduced by President John F. Kennedy in 1961, originally required entities that receive federal funding to take tangible steps “to ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, creed, color, or national origin.” In 1967, Lyndon Johnson added sex to that list.

And yet, just as most people think of Title IX as being about athletics funding (there’s a lot more to it than that), the general perception of affirmative action is that it’s “just” about race.

But affirmative action has been quite beneficial to women, and disproportionately beneficial to white women. Women are now more likely to graduate with bachelor’s degrees and attend graduate school than men are and outnumber men on many college campuses. In 1970, just 7.6 percent of physicians in America were women; in 2002, that number had risen to 25.2 percent. But -- and this is a big but -- those benefits are more likely to accrue to white women than they are to women of color, and that imbalance has very real effects on employment and earnings later in life. In other words: affirmative action works, and it works way better for white women than it does for all the other women in America.
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Old 01-22-16, 03:41 PM   #1009
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
Oscar nominee and Academy member Charlotte Rampling said that, I'm shocked.
She has a point you know. With only Hip Hop soundtracked Films and Madea films representing Blacks, how can you find an OSCAR worthy Black? You can't.
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Old 01-22-16, 05:01 PM   #1010
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by Giantrobo View Post
She has a point you know. With only Hip Hop soundtracked Films and Madea films representing Blacks, how can you find an OSCAR worthy Black? You can't.
That's way I like your posts, Robo. While not always in agreement, you call 'em as you see 'em & let the chips fall where they may.

There could be a lot of substantive discussions about what type of "black films" (and, more generally, "minority films") are needed in order to be representative...also, what the goals should be. Entertainment? Enlightenment? Social progress? All of the above?

Rather than beginning a lengthy discussion about all of the various stereotypes perpetuated in the entertainment industry (and what is needed), I would like to point out where elites often vary with audiences. I haven't seen "The War Room"...the recent religiously-oriented film with a predominantly-black cast...but it did pretty big box office...and had lots of crossover appeal. http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/war_room_2015/

My point is that the critics on Rotten Tomatoes gave it a 34% recommendation, whereas 89% of the audience recommended it. What is the cause of the disconnect between critical response and audience response? Of course, popular appeal is never the yardstick for critical acclaim...otherwise "The Ride Along" & "Dumb & Dumber Too" would be nominated. But is it lack of diversity?
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Old 01-22-16, 05:07 PM   #1011
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
That's way I like your posts, Robo. While not always in agreement, you call 'em as you see 'em & let the chips fall where they may.

There could be a lot of substantive discussions about what type of "black films" (and, more generally, "minority films") are needed in order to be representative...also, what the goals should be. Entertainment? Enlightenment? Social progress? All of the above?

Rather than beginning a lengthy discussion about all of the various stereotypes perpetuated in the entertainment industry (and what is needed), I would like to point out where elites often vary with audiences. I haven't seen "The War Room"...the recent religiously-oriented film with a predominantly-black cast...but it did pretty big box office...and had lots of crossover appeal. http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/war_room_2015/

My point is that the critics on Rotten Tomatoes gave it a 34% recommendation, whereas 89% of the audience recommended it. What is the cause of the disconnect between critical response and audience response? Of course, popular appeal is never the yardstick for critical acclaim...otherwise "The Ride Along" & "Dumb & Dumber Too" would be nominated. But is it lack of diversity?
I was being sarcastic But yeah, there is a disconnect. Even if certain dvdtalkers don't agree with them, the articles I posted earlier point out one possible part of the disconnect.
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Old 01-22-16, 05:10 PM   #1012
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Breaking: "Academy Alters Voting Rules To Promote Diversity"

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/academy...202831225.html

Here's the rub & why I'm skeptical about many of the complaints from Lee (Spike, not Ang) and others about the lack of "color" among nominees.

The complaint is being made, yet I'm not seeing specific allegations being made re: what the complainers think is the probable cause for the oversights. Because...for the complaints to have any legitimacy...one or more of the following allegations should be clearly stated:

(1) The Academy voters can't recognize talent.
(2) The Academy voters are racists.
(3) The awards are largely reflections of studio media campaigns & $ spent to buy the awards.
(4) The awards are just popularity contests.
(5) The awards are largely influenced by the political & social agendas of the voters as reflected by the nominations.


I'm sure there are other specific accusations that could be made...such as the dearth of minority casting (which wouldn't account for specific outstanding performances being overlooked). But I'm not reading any of those specific charges being brought. Simply saying, "We aren't being represented" in the nominations smacks of asking for quotas rather than merit. Lee and others need to specifically point out films & performances that should have received nominations over ones that were nominated (which is what happens every year with any number of overlooked films regardless of races involved).

Here's a puzzling quote from the piece above:

"Nobody was asking for quotas or affirmative action; instead, the protests were angry at Hollywood’s longtime failure to recognize racial and gender diversity in the country."

???????? Maybe someone can explain how complaints about "failure to recognize racial and gender diversity" as evidenced by lack of nominations is NOT the same as asking for quotas, because it's not apparent.

Also saw the generational differences: Michael Caine saying, "You can't vote for an actor just because he's black" (http://variety.com/2016/film/news/mi...ng-1201686240/) while Mark Ruffalo states that America is "rife with white privilege racism." Note that Caine praised Idris Elba's performance in "Beasts of No Nation."

Also of interest from the above article:

Hudson and Boone Isaacs have helped champion a push to invite more diverse members; in June, the org announced invitations to a record 322 new members, representing a cross-section of the population. But with 6,261 voting members, the new additions apparently didn’t make much of a dent.

The Academy has 17 branches; actors nominate actors, editors nominate editors, and so on; the entire eligible membership votes on final Oscars.


I want Ruffalo, Lee, and others to stand up and say that the actors & directors who nominate the performances & films are racists (since it's not the "old white studio heads" who do the nominating). Because that's the obvious, direct charge being made...just as the implication from the head of the Academy that increasing minority membership will result in more minority nominations...which is the same as saying that racial tribes will stick together. In other words, it takes racism to fight racism. Or so it seems they're saying, despite the protests of the article author.

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Old 01-22-16, 05:18 PM   #1013
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

The New York Times’ film critics have a conversation about the recent Oscar controversy

Oscars So White? Or Oscars So Dumb? Discuss.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/24/mo...pgtype=article
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Old 01-22-16, 05:29 PM   #1014
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
The question has been asked here before by many others: Exactly what standards define the point when a "post-racial society" has been reached?
When it comes to entertainment, I'd say when two things happen:

When the role calls for a certain ethnicity (like a movie about the gods of Egypt), the correct races are cast. And that goes the other way too - a black actor shouldn't play JFK.

When the role does not call for a certain ethnicity, anyone could be cast.

There were grumblings about Will Smith being romantically involved with Margot Robbie in Focus just last year. Why? What on earth is the problem with that? Yet it was a problem.

So when a black man and a white woman can be romantically linked in a film and no one makes a comment, I'd say we were there. It is better than it's been in the past, but we shouldn't be dealing with any of this stuff any more.
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Old 01-22-16, 06:02 PM   #1015
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by Draven View Post
When it comes to entertainment, I'd say when two things happen:

When the role calls for a certain ethnicity (like a movie about the gods of Egypt), the correct races are cast. And that goes the other way too - a black actor shouldn't play JFK.

When the role does not call for a certain ethnicity, anyone could be cast.

There were grumblings about Will Smith being romantically involved with Margot Robbie in Focus just last year. Why? What on earth is the problem with that? Yet it was a problem.
??? Citation of the above (re: Smith/Robbie)?

The only "grumblings" I heard were of the rumors of the married Smith having a real-life fling with Robbie on the set. The "problem" I heard being discussed was whether Will & Jada's rumored "open marriage" is their business or should be criticized. Never heard one peep about the movie (other than it wasn't very good).

Likewise, never heard any complaints about Theron & Elba having an on-screen fling in Prometheus. Just two-good looking people having a hedonistic moment.

As to your first point, for decades I've heard "diversity" being touted with multi-racial or atypical-gender casting for Shakespearean roles, so I'm not sure that those promoting diversity in casting would agree with you. MacBeth (er..."the Scottish play") may seem to require Caucasians in the role of the king & his Lady, although Kurosawa certainly didn't have any problem in adapting to different racial types & settings (nor did Sturges when he returned the favor). Those, of course, completely change settings, but I've not noticed big outcries about changing types (think Denzel Washington in "Much Ado." The outcry there was about casting Keanu Reeves, and it wasn't due to his race.).

On the other hand, iconic roles such as Hermione Granger, Thor, etc. can be tougher nuts to crack given that people have so much attachment to the originals (which is why remakes often fail).

I don't think The Equalizer or Wild Wild West got lukewarm reviews due to racial casting (as you recall, Maverick didn't burn up the box office, either, and it actually had Garner in a cameo). And I doubt the new Magnificent Seven will fail simply because Washington is in the lead role; it will sink or swim on its own merits or audience reaction to westerns.
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Old 01-22-16, 06:39 PM   #1016
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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??? Citation of the above (re: Smith/Robbie)?

The only "grumblings" I heard were of the rumors of the married Smith having a real-life fling with Robbie on the set.
Racists Are Pissed Off About the Trailer for the New Will Smith Movie - http://www.vice.com/read/racists-are...mith-movie-275
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Old 01-22-16, 06:47 PM   #1017
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
Racists Are Pissed Off About the Trailer for the New Will Smith Movie - http://www.vice.com/read/racists-are...mith-movie-275
So now we're going to drag out anonymous comments from Youtube...YOUTUBE, of all places...as proof of some big backlash and "outcry" about Smith/Robbie???

Maybe we can move up the scale and start citing Yahoo comments from anonymous users next.

Perhaps a more useful piece of writing is this blog from a minority member re: the current "boycott" controversy and what might be more effective in bringing about changes:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/osca...> ocid=SL5EDHP

Excerpt:

But the last piece is ours. We, the audience, vote with the almighty dollar. For every time a Straight Outta Compton makes $161 million or a Fast and Furious crosses $350 million, Hollywood has to pay attention. If we show up for smaller gems like last year's Dope or Tangerine, executives – and Academy voters – will take notice. No, not every worthy film with folks of color in front of (and behind) the camera will get awards attention, but the industry can't ignore us forever – not if we're responsible for their paychecks. Everyone involved in the system likes to claim they're not racist, that it's all business, that their favorite color is green. Let's make them prove it.

And celebrities, instead of boycotting the Oscars, show up and say something did at the 1988 show. If people of color aren't in the room for deal meetings and negotiations, we should at least be at the Academy Awards. What better place to make a stand than on the show the entire world watches?

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Old 01-22-16, 06:51 PM   #1018
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
So now we're going to drag out anonymous comments from Youtube...YOUTUBE, of all places...as proof of some big backlash and "outcry" about Smith/Robbie???

Maybe we can move up the scale and start citing Yahoo comments from anonymous users next. -ohfrank-

Perhaps a more useful piece of writing is this blog from a minority member re: the current "boycott" controversy and what might be more effective in bringing about changes:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/osca... ocid=SL5EDHP

Excerpt:

But the last piece is ours. We, the audience, vote with the almighty dollar. For every time a Straight Outta Compton makes $161 million or a Fast and Furious crosses $350 million, Hollywood has to pay attention. If we show up for smaller gems like last year's Dope or Tangerine, executives – and Academy voters – will take notice. No, not every worthy film with folks of color in front of (and behind) the camera will get awards attention, but the industry can't ignore us forever – not if we're responsible for their paychecks. Everyone involved in the system likes to claim they're not racist, that it's all business, that their favorite color is green. Let's make them prove it.

And celebrities, instead of boycotting the Oscars, show up and say something did at the 1988 show. If people of color aren't in the room for deal meetings and negotiations, we should at least be at the Academy Awards. What better place to make a stand than on the show the entire world watches?
Maybe this is more to your liking which I meant to post with the other article but for some reason accidentally got deleted from my initial post.

Does Hollywood still have an interracial romance problem?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/focu...movie-couples/
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Old 01-22-16, 06:56 PM   #1019
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
Maybe this is more to your liking which I meant to post with the other article but for some reason accidentally got deleted from my initial post.

Does Hollywood still have an interracial romance problem?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/focu...movie-couples/
It certainly seems to support my premise that IR romance is no big deal.

In fact, this quote from the article is highlighted in huge letters in case anyone misses the point:

Unless you live in the comments threads on YouTube, it seems that interracial relationships in mainstream cinema no longer require explanation or justification
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Old 01-22-16, 11:08 PM   #1020
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by Draven View Post
So when a black man and a white woman can be romantically linked in a film and no one makes a comment, I'd say we were there. It is better than it's been in the past, but we shouldn't be dealing with any of this stuff any more.
Will never happen, any yahoo on youtube or twitter can make a comment, and will if for nothing else just to get attention. Seems very flimsy to judge society based off of internet troll comments... we could play that game forever.
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Old 01-23-16, 10:49 AM   #1021
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
The New York Times’ film critics have a conversation about the recent Oscar controversy

Oscars So White? Or Oscars So Dumb? Discuss.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/24/mo...pgtype=article
Help me out here...

Unless there are some clear and obvious snubs by the Academy voters, isn't this an open and shut case of killing the messenger. They are not the ones that fail to produce films about minorities and fail to cast minorities in leading roles.
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Old 01-23-16, 12:09 PM   #1022
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by Giantrobo View Post
I guess as long as Blacks "stay in their lane" in terms of roles there's no problem giving away statues.

It's not like all the acting Oscars that go to white ladies are for them performing in virtuous glamor roles:

1997 Helen Hunt waitress
2002 Nichole Kidman suicidal bipolar woman
2003 Charliz Theron Serial killer
2008 Kate Winslet Nazi war criminal
2010 Natalie Portman unhinged bipolar woman
2012 Jennifer Lawrence unhinged bipolar woman
2013 Cate Blanchett borderline personality disorder

If any arguement can be made it's that there is such a dearth of roles for women these days. This is a horribly redundent list. Looking back into the '70s and '80s reveals a much more interesting crop of roles about strong, brave, and pioneering women.

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Old 01-23-16, 12:12 PM   #1023
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Help me out here...

Unless there are some clear and obvious snubs by the Academy voters, isn't this an open and shut case of killing the messenger. They are not the ones that fail to produce films about minorities and fail to cast minorities in leading roles.
Not really, because even if there were films about minorities there is the factor of getting a white guy in his 60's to watch it.
The academy is out of touch with progress of all kinds, try getting an NC-17 film nominated for an Oscar.
Killer Joe & Shame should have been nominated for something.
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Old 01-23-16, 12:16 PM   #1024
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Not really, because even if there were films about minorities there is the factor of getting a white guy in his 60's to watch it. They are out of touch with progress. Try getting an academy member to get behind an NC-17 film. Killer Joe & Shame should have been nominated for something.
Maybe if you had some obvious snubs I might be able to understand your case. I'll admit I'm not familiar with their awards from before I started paying attention (mid 80's). But since that time I have seen a very good track record of nominating minorities, and films about minorities, when they appeared to be worthy of nomination.

I totally understand and agree with the concerns about what mvoi9es get made, and who is getting cast in those movies. But I haven't seen anything that convinces me that they awards are ignoring minorities.
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Old 01-23-16, 12:26 PM   #1025
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
It's not like all the acting Oscars that go to white ladies are for them performing in virtuous glamor roles:

1997 Helen Hunt waitress
2002 Nichole Kidman suicidal bipolar woman
2003 Charliz Theron Serial killer
2008 Kate Winslet Nazi war criminal
2010 Natalie Portman unhinged bipolar woman
2012 Jennifer Lawrence unhinged bipolar woman
2013 Cate Blanchett borderline personality disorder

If any arguement can be made it's that there is such a dearth of roles for women these days. This is a horribly redundent list. Looking back into the '70s and '80s reveals a much more interesting crop of roles about strong, brave, and pioneering women.
A few years ago it was sort of a running joke that an actress could only get an Academy Award nomination if she was playing a prostitute or a crazy woman.
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