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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 10-30-14, 10:56 AM   #26
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
Did you say white people should not interject their thoughts or did you not say that?
No, he's saying white people need to step back and listen to the other side is actually saying instead of constantly trying to derail the discussion with nitpickery.

This is how the typical American discussion on race goes:

Person A: Hollywood movies are overwhelmingly white. Apart from niche pictures aimed at urban audiences, blacks are typically relegated to supporting roles.

Person B: But Will Smith.

A: Yes, okay, Will Smith gets some big movies, but he's an exception. When a producer is casting an Oscar-bait film about the struggles of being middle class, they go with someone like Kevin Spacey or an Affleck.

B: Yeah, but Denzel Washington.

A: Yes, Denzel is awesome, but still an exception. He and Smith don't make up for the overwhelming preponderance of white people in major starring roles.

B: But Morgan Freeman.

A: Are you even listening to what I'm saying?
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Old 10-30-14, 10:57 AM   #27
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Now I'm confused. So you're NOT against white people expressing opinions on the issue that you don't approve of--you just want them to wait a polite amount of time before expressing their opinions?
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Old 10-30-14, 10:57 AM   #28
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
Now I'm confused. So you're NOT against white people expressing opinions on the issue that you don't approve of--you just want them to wait a polite amount of time before expressing their opinions?
Oh would you just shut the fuck up. You knew exactly what I meant and you're just playing games.
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Old 10-30-14, 11:05 AM   #29
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
No, he's saying white people need to step back and listen to the other side is actually saying instead of constantly trying to derail the discussion with nitpickery.

This is how the typical American discussion on race goes:

Person A: Hollywood movies are overwhelmingly white. Apart from niche pictures aimed at urban audiences, blacks are typically relegated to supporting roles.

Person B: But Will Smith.

A: Yes, okay, Will Smith gets some big movies, but he's an exception. When a producer is casting an Oscar-bait film about the struggles of being middle class, they go with someone like Kevin Spacey or an Affleck.

B: Yeah, but Denzel Washington.

A: Yes, Denzel is awesome, but still an exception. He and Smith don't make up for the overwhelming preponderance of white people in major starring roles.

B: But Morgan Freeman.

A: Are you even listening to what I'm saying?
So it's fair to say "white people" should just shut up and listen, because the vast majority of white people feel "racism has been completely eliminated, and there's no points to be discussed, and discussion must end"? Really, that's what "white people" believe? If Tracer Bullet had said "right-wingers who think there's no racism are a huge obstacle to the discussion," then that's a legitimate point. He didn't say that. He said "white people" should shut up and listen.
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Old 10-30-14, 11:14 AM   #30
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

White people, in general terms, have absolutely no clue about what it's like being black and don't give more than a glimmering thought about it. So yes, MOST white people need to do a LOT of listening before engaging in the discussion. Like wendersfan stated, no need to get butthurt.
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Old 10-30-14, 11:14 AM   #31
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
So it's fair to say "white people" should just shut up and listen, because the vast majority of white people feel "racism has been completely eliminated, and there's no points to be discussed, and discussion must end"? Really, that's what "white people" believe?
No one said all white people believe that. But in any discussion of race, there is inevitably at least one white person who tries to shut down the conversation with some variation on that argument, such as the ever popular, "Anyone who's still talking about issues of race has some liberal agenda and is trying to silence those on the other side by making them sound like racists."

Of course, I'm sure you'd never go for that argument.
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Old 10-30-14, 11:16 AM   #32
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Or that person who draws the false equivalence of "reverse racism" and shuts down the conversation.
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Old 10-30-14, 11:21 AM   #33
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
No one said all white people believe that. But in any discussion of race, there is inevitably at least one white person who tries to shut down the conversation with some variation on that argument, such as the ever popular, "Anyone who's still talking about issues of race has some liberal agenda and is trying to silence those on the other side by making them sound like racists."

Of course, I'm sure you'd never go for that argument.
I would submit that there are other choices than:

A. Racism has been completely eliminated and minorities face no discrimination

or

B. The problems minority communities face are directly attributable to white racism
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Old 10-30-14, 11:22 AM   #34
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Around the 1:25 mark

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Old 10-30-14, 11:23 AM   #35
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

What about

C: The problems minority communities face are INdirectly attributable to white racism
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Old 10-30-14, 11:28 AM   #36
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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What about

C: The problems minority communities face are INdirectly attributable to white racism
Many of them certainly are. But to say "no minority cultures could possibly be capable of adopting any cultural traditions or practices that hinder their advancement in modern society" is just silly.
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Old 10-30-14, 11:28 AM   #37
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Or:

D: We're discussing systemic problems with our society that give white people advantages over other races, particularly blacks. This isn't a freaking personal attack on you.
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Old 10-30-14, 11:32 AM   #38
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
Now I'm confused.
Now?

I notice you have a tendency, when it comes to people you're inclined to disagree with, to look for the most absurd reading of their words and then react as if there is nothing they could have possibly intended but that extreme absurd interpretation. Perhaps it's entertaining for you, but it doesn't really lead to fruitful dialogue. Tracer's original post seemed pretty clear -- and it was pretty obvious to me he wasn't saying "white people go away!" -- and even on top of that he clarified. Would it kill you to engage him on the topic of how we can have a constructive dialogue on race rather than the faux-confusion over whether Tracer is calling for white genocide?
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Old 10-30-14, 11:33 AM   #39
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
Or:

D: We're discussing systemic problems with our society that give white people advantages over other races, particularly blacks. This isn't a freaking personal attack on you.
And that's fine, but to also argue that there can't be any serious problems within the black community that don't originate from "systemic racism" is also contributing to shutting down the discussion.
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Old 10-30-14, 11:37 AM   #40
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
Reading is fundamental:
Ahhhhh so as long there are on ongoing discussions, he gets a pass. I'll remember that when republicans take over and you're on the other end. You might want to read about Holder as well.
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Old 10-30-14, 11:40 AM   #41
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Oh would you just shut the fuck up.
Further proof that your side has no interest in what white people have to say!
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Old 10-30-14, 11:43 AM   #42
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Now?

I notice you have a tendency, when it comes to people you're inclined to disagree with, to look for the most absurd reading of their words and then react as if there is nothing they could have possibly intended but that extreme absurd interpretation. Perhaps it's entertaining for you, but it doesn't really lead to fruitful dialogue. Tracer's original post seemed pretty clear -- and it was pretty obvious to me he wasn't saying "white people go away!" -- and even on top of that he clarified. Would it kill you to engage him on the topic of how we can have a constructive dialogue on race rather than the faux-confusion over whether Tracer is calling for white genocide?
Sorry, that's how debate goes. I think Tracer Bullet and most people here are nice guys---but I read and engage with what people write, not what I feel they probably meant because I like them. To say that "white people should be quiet and listen" was an extreme statement of blanket stereotyping and dismissal of a wide diversity of opinions and attitudes, and it was based solely on race. It should have been challenged.
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Old 10-30-14, 11:48 AM   #43
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

You should all see the movie, DEAR WHITE PEOPLE, and then have a discussion about it. (Not that I've seen it, I just think you all should. I have to see JOHN WICK before I see anything else.)
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Old 10-30-14, 11:56 AM   #44
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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And that's fine, but to also argue that there can't be any serious problems within the black community that don't originate from "systemic racism" is also contributing to shutting down the discussion.
Since the "black community" exists because of racism, it's rather difficult to disentangle any problems in it from the issue of race. Would you care to present some examples?

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Ahhhhh so as long there are on ongoing discussions, he gets a pass. I'll remember that when republicans take over and you're on the other end. You might want to read about Holder as well.
No. You claimed that Holder's statement came after he resigned, when in fact it's from the year he took office. This renders your post utterly nonsensical.
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Old 10-30-14, 12:04 PM   #45
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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And that's fine, but to also argue that there can't be any serious problems within the black community that don't originate from "systemic racism" is also contributing to shutting down the discussion.
What would those be? I'm all ears.
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Old 10-30-14, 12:06 PM   #46
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
Sorry, that's how debate goes. I think Tracer Bullet and most people here are nice guys---but I read and engage with what people write, not what I feel they probably meant because I like them. To say that "white people should be quiet and listen" was an extreme statement of blanket stereotyping and dismissal of a wide diversity of opinions and attitudes, and it was based solely on race. It should have been challenged.
No, you take what someone writes and jump to the most extreme version of what it is they write, and then act shocked when they go "WTF???"

But hey, whatever, man.
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Old 10-30-14, 12:08 PM   #47
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Also I'd love to know how you to propose to have a discussion about racism without talking about races.
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Old 10-30-14, 12:09 PM   #48
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
Since the "black community" exists because of racism, it's rather difficult to disentangle any problems in it from the issue of race. Would you care to present some examples?
Here's one major example I would give. I wouldn't say it's completely disconnected from race, because I think the black community was already historically weak from racism--but the effects of the sexual revolution on the black community have been particularly devastating, as these rates are much higher than they were in the 60's. Also, I think it would be a little silly to argue that whites gamed the system to favor Asians, and the traditional emphasis of Asian cultures on family and education is a non-factor.


Children in single-parent families



Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders

17 percent


Non-Hispanic whites

25 percent


Hispanics

42 percent


American Indian and Native Alaskans

53 percent


Non-Hispanic blacks

67 percent

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...african-americ[/QUOTE]/
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Old 10-30-14, 12:12 PM   #49
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
Here's one major example I would give. I wouldn't say it's completely disconnected from race, because I think the black community was already historically weak from racism--but the effects of the sexual revolution on the black community have been particularly devastating, as these rates are much higher than they were in the 60's. Also, I think it would be a little silly to argue that whites gamed the system to favor Asians, and the traditional emphasis of Asian cultures on family and education is a non-factor.


Children in single-parent families



Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders

17 percent


Non-Hispanic whites

25 percent


Hispanics

42 percent


American Indian and Native Alaskans

53 percent


Non-Hispanic blacks

67 percent

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...african-americ
Do you read Ta-Nehesi Coates? You should.

http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/arc...merica/277084/

I'd also add the other piece of the puzzle is this--why are black women choosing not to marry?
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Old 10-30-14, 12:47 PM   #50
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet View Post
Do you read Ta-Nehesi Coates? You should.

http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/arc...merica/277084/

I'd also add the other piece of the puzzle is this--why are black women choosing not to marry?
"Theories of cultural decline are irrelevant. Policy not so much. Given the contact rates between the justice system and young black men,
and given how that contact affects your employment prospects, the
decision by many black women to not marry, and to have less children,
strikes me as logical."

Moving to the This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like thread.
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