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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 08-16-14, 10:02 AM   #526
Pharoh
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

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Easy there Turbo! All kinds of evidence that Jesus was a real person. Now, the hoodoo voodoo farp associated with him, that is what is up for debate.


Not really sure I/we want to go down this road, but what the hell.


There is virtually no evidence that jesus was a real person.
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Old 08-16-14, 12:05 PM   #527
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

The Romans kept records of every person that they crucified yet they just happened to lose the one of some dude claiming to be the son of god.
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Old 08-16-14, 01:10 PM   #528
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

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The Romans kept records of every person that they crucified yet they just happened to lose the one of some dude claiming to be the son of god.
That is not true. It is but a myth.
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Old 08-16-14, 02:32 PM   #529
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

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Not really sure I/we want to go down this road, but what the hell.


There is virtually no evidence that jesus was a real person.
Events in the gospels are almost certainly coo coo, and Jesus may have been nothing more than an ancient David Koresh, but allowing that Christianity may have been based on an individual whose followers believed he was the son of god does not make him the son of god. A person would not have had to have been crucified to have existed.
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Old 08-16-14, 02:58 PM   #530
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

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Old 08-16-14, 03:40 PM   #531
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

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Old 08-16-14, 03:50 PM   #532
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

Believing that the person of Jesus never existed at all (ignoring the historicity of the events of his life) requires willfully putting on blinders to all of the historical scholarship that affirms his existence and is akin to the selective blinders that Christians are often accused of wearing themselves. It's a belief based in anti-Christian emotion and not on majority scholarship or objective reason.
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Old 08-16-14, 05:21 PM   #533
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

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So, sorry for the unnecessary snark!
So are you or are you not jumping the snark?

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I just want to point out that this is a very common human trait and there are a truck loads of very interesting psychological studies that examine this and seek an answer to your question.

Just a quick example, we regularly screen athletes for eating disorders and unhealthy eating habits. One of the instruments we use helps us get a baseline understanding of their grasp of basic nutritional and food/eating related knowledge. They are asked to answer the same question three times. One, in terms of what they think the science says. Two, in terms of what they believe. And three, in terms of their actual behaviors and habits. Their answers to these questions will vary across the same question depending on science, belief, and behavior quite frequently.
That's a very good point. For instance, I believe that eating healthfully is what is best for me, yet I often reach for pizza, chips, or soda instead of healthy snacks.

However, I think there's a difference in contradictory behavior concerning personal habits...about which many people are terribly inconsistent...and questions of morality involving what most would consider to be the more important issues regarding interpersonal relationships (not setting aside the sin of gluttony!).

In other words, I think most people would draw a big distinction between someone eating candy despite his/her belief that too much sugar can be harmful to oneself and the action of someone taking someone else's candy away from others and eating it despite his/her belief that it's wrong to steal.

But your point re: human inconsistency is well-taken.
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Old 08-16-14, 05:23 PM   #534
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

One thing I think is a common point of agreement...we should be more concerned about Christians being slaughtered on a mountaintop that about waving banners at football games (and I mean that for both sides).
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Old 08-16-14, 05:35 PM   #535
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

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One thing I think is a common point of agreement...we should be more concerned about Christians being slaughtered on a mountaintop that about waving banners at football games (and I mean that for both sides).
Yes. I cannot believe how little attention this is getting.
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Old 08-16-14, 06:10 PM   #536
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

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One thing I think is a common point of agreement...we should be more concerned about Christians being slaughtered on a mountaintop that about waving banners at football games (and I mean that for both sides).
The idea that Christians are victims and Muslims are the persecutors is a paradigm that challenges the very core of the postmodern, relativist western worldview, so it's not surprising that it gets little attention. Israel inadvertently killing civilians while battling Hamas? That will get global protests in the tens of thousands and international calls for boycotts. Islamic militants intentionally slaughtering thousands of civilians, raping the women and taking them as sex slaves, and proudly holding up severed heads? Meh, nothing to see here.

These are the times we live in.
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Old 08-16-14, 09:27 PM   #537
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

Why don't you go start your own thread about whatever you think deserves attention?

I don't disagree that there are more important matters to discuss, but in case you hadn't noticed, people waste their time and energy talking about and doing far more unimportant things every day, both on and off the Internet.

By the way, we're on a movie discussion forum. Based on your thinking, this discussion forum shouldn't even exist. How important are art and entertainment in the grand scheme of things?
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Old 08-17-14, 11:47 AM   #538
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

His statement has everything to do with this thread. Outrage against religion. A teenager holding a sign, apoplexy. A muslim holding a head, silence. It's the same with women's rights. Where is the outrage against female ritual mutilation or stoning for being raped? Perhaps those things should be addressed before females being allowed to do interviews in a locker room? Someones priorities are fucked up.
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Old 08-17-14, 01:30 PM   #539
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

Mod note: address the arguments being made, don't attack the poster. "You can't start this thread because there are worse things going on in the world" is a non-argument. By that standard, there would be no posts in this forum.
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Old 08-17-14, 01:33 PM   #540
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

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His statement has everything to do with this thread. Outrage against religion. A teenager holding a sign, apoplexy. A muslim holding a head, silence. It's the same with women's rights. Where is the outrage against female ritual mutilation or stoning for being raped? Perhaps those things should be addressed before females being allowed to do interviews in a locker room? Someones priorities are fucked up.
Um, those things are happening in another country. When Muslims start cutting people's heads off and female ritual mutilation start happening in the good old US of A I am sure more than lawsuits will take place. To compare these things is fucking stupid. A cheerleader held up a sign of bible quotes, a person brought a lawsuit. No one has burned anyone's house down or shot at them because of the sign that would be blowing it out of proportion. I really hope some of you are just being argumentative in this thread are not really as dumb as you seem by your posts.
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Old 08-17-14, 04:05 PM   #541
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

It's getting where you can't tell who is arguing against what (or whom) anymore!
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Old 08-17-14, 08:41 PM   #542
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

I think I may have even argued with myself at one point in is thread.
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Old 08-17-14, 08:41 PM   #543
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

No you didn't.
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Old 08-17-14, 09:00 PM   #544
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

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Um, those things are happening in another country. When Muslims start cutting people's heads off and female ritual mutilation start happening in the good old US of A I am sure more than lawsuits will take place. To compare these things is fucking stupid. A cheerleader held up a sign of bible quotes, a person brought a lawsuit.
It isn't easy to fix the world.

We tried to "fix" Iraq, got rid of Saddam Hussein, and now there's ISIS in his place.

The Middle East is a fucking horror show. And there's nothing we can do about it. We can invade, occupy, take out ISIS, kill fifty thousand innocent people in the process, and once we have ended the military occupation, something just as bad or worse will fill the power vacuum.
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Old 08-17-14, 09:30 PM   #545
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

Of course Iraq wasn't about terrorism as much as it was about taking out a guy who was just an asshole, and finally the US had an opportunity under the cloak of Terrorism, to take care of him.

You are indeed correct. The Middle East is a horror show. I suppose the US isn't much different, in that we kill each other in different ways. We do need to pull out of the ME entirely, however and let them kill each other until only one is left standing. Having our folks die over there is ridiculous.
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Old 08-17-14, 10:11 PM   #546
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

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It's getting where you can't tell who is arguing against what (or whom) anymore!
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I think I may have even argued with myself at one point in is thread.
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No you didn't.
That's not arguement, it's just contradiction!
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Old 08-17-14, 10:39 PM   #547
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

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No you didn't.
Nice.
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Old 08-17-14, 11:36 PM   #548
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

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But there's more than that going on with this image. Absolutely, unquestionably this artist was making a conscious effort to present all of those religions as morally and intellectually equivalent. Indeed, he certainly had to be cognizant of the fact that if he made the crescent bigger and more prominent, people would accuse him of elevating Islam, or if he had made the cross bigger, he would be accused of giving Christianity a more prominent position. The ideology clearly espoused by this image is modern cultural relativism, which holds that all religions are equally good and bad, and none are better or worse than the other. I really don't see how you could look at that image and conclude otherwise.
When you write that there is "absolutely, unquestionably" one way to interpret the artwork and you "really don't see" how someone could interpret it another, can you see how I feel shut down?

That's your starting point. That's where you're at. I explained my starting point. That's where I'm at. Is one better than the other? Probably not. If so, does it make one person better than the other? I hope not. It's where we're coming from. I don't agree with you and we don't have to part ways and/or enter the realm of "convince me / convince you." We can remain in dialogue, taking action to better understand each other and ourselves in the process. In short, we can co-exist.

And really, that ^ is my interpretation of the artwork. It is saying we all start with what is true to us. Jesus is true to me and even if I think Jesus is true for the world (and I do), I've got two hills to climb right from the get-go if I go around thinking or telling people their starting point of truth is not only wrong, there's no possible way they could be getting something of value out of it. The first hill is that doesn't sound like a very healthy conversation. The second is I'd have to check myself to ensure it's my faith talking, not my ego. Plus, that approach shuts out God because that would say I'm the arbiter of limiting how God can and cannot / will and will not work through the world. That's not my job. Even if it was, for my money, God is a God that works in abundance when it comes to the most true thing in the world: love.

Regarding the Spirit working through multiple truths, even if one finds Jesus to be the ultimate revelation of God, there is strong theological thought on this one. John Cobb writes one must seek mutual transformation, that to become a better Christian, the Christian must become of another religion and then return to Christianity. Paul Tillich writes of enrichment, that all religions contain some form of Truth because they seek the experience of the Holy (even if he did indeed also believe the absolute event of the Holy is Jesus as Christ). There's also some pretty challenging ideas out there, like Aloysius Pieris writing, for example, the Buddhist must become Christian and the Christian must become Buddhis, so the seed at the center of each religion is transferred to each other and both religions transcend themselves and share something deeper. That's challenging, yeah, and it offers some intriguing thought around the reach of God in the world.

Plus, maybe all the symbols are roughly the same size because in print, that's how most words appear? Maybe it was less theological and more practical!
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Old 08-18-14, 12:49 AM   #549
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

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That's not arguement, it's just contradiction!
That's two doors down. Time's up!
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Old 08-18-14, 01:21 AM   #550
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Re: Texas cheerleaders wave Bible banners at public high school football games

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When you write that there is "absolutely, unquestionably" one way to interpret the artwork and you "really don't see" how someone could interpret it another, can you see how I feel shut down?

That's your starting point. That's where you're at. I explained my starting point. That's where I'm at. Is one better than the other? Probably not. If so, does it make one person better than the other? I hope not. It's where we're coming from. I don't agree with you and we don't have to part ways and/or enter the realm of "convince me / convince you." We can remain in dialogue, taking action to better understand each other and ourselves in the process. In short, we can co-exist.

And really, that ^ is my interpretation of the artwork. It is saying we all start with what is true to us. Jesus is true to me and even if I think Jesus is true for the world (and I do), I've got two hills to climb right from the get-go if I go around thinking or telling people their starting point of truth is not only wrong, there's no possible way they could be getting something of value out of it. The first hill is that doesn't sound like a very healthy conversation. The second is I'd have to check myself to ensure it's my faith talking, not my ego. Plus, that approach shuts out God because that would say I'm the arbiter of limiting how God can and cannot / will and will not work through the world. That's not my job. Even if it was, for my money, God is a God that works in abundance when it comes to the most true thing in the world: love.

Regarding the Spirit working through multiple truths, even if one finds Jesus to be the ultimate revelation of God, there is strong theological thought on this one. John Cobb writes one must seek mutual transformation, that to become a better Christian, the Christian must become of another religion and then return to Christianity. Paul Tillich writes of enrichment, that all religions contain some form of Truth because they seek the experience of the Holy (even if he did indeed also believe the absolute event of the Holy is Jesus as Christ). There's also some pretty challenging ideas out there, like Aloysius Pieris writing, for example, the Buddhist must become Christian and the Christian must become Buddhis, so the seed at the center of each religion is transferred to each other and both religions transcend themselves and share something deeper. That's challenging, yeah, and it offers some intriguing thought around the reach of God in the world.

Plus, maybe all the symbols are roughly the same size because in print, that's how most words appear? Maybe it was less theological and more practical!
But if you feel "shut down" by someone's quoting the Bible itself as ultimate truth, then doesn't it follow that you are reacting in a way that doesn't regard the other person's view? Aren't you contradicting yourself when you say that "there's no possible value" in another's point of view even while insisting that all points of view can be equally valid? That sounds as though you're saying that your view is superior to the other poster's and that you are the one "shutting down" the conversation.

When "multiple truths" contradict each other, then I would politely, respectfully posit the idea that the idea of "truth" needs to be defined. I would like to hear your stance, for instance, on how the view that Jesus is the propitiation for sins (and that belief in this idea is required for salvation) can be reconciled with other contradictory ideas from other religions (or non-religions). I'm also curious why you consider ideas that have no basis in scripture to be "challenging" for Christians. And if you think that "some form of Truth" is the same as "Truth."

If you quote Tillich or the other authors you cite and someone else quotes scripture, do you consider the citations to have equal validity? Does each person's individual opinions become the collective source of "Truth" and have to be considered, in your mind? Is there ever any hope of reaching the goal in your journey, or does the journey become the goal?

And why do you consider it "shutting down" if you encounter a "challenging" view in this forum (that is, if we agree that "challenging" means a view different from one you currently hold or have considered) yet seem to thrive upon having your views challenged through a published work?

If one of the cheerleaders holds the views you appear to hold, I can hear him/her saying, "We're going to need a bigger banner" (said in Roy Scheider's voice).

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