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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 08-02-15, 09:02 PM   #76
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Look on the bright side...they have a shelf surplus.
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Old 08-19-15, 05:36 PM   #77
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

I call the big one Bitey!

This is what Hugo Chavez referred to as "21st century socialism."


http://www.breitbart.com/national-se...an-birth-ward/

Infestation of Opossums Kills 17 Babies in Venezuelan Birth Ward

August 18, 2015

Newly-minted parents at Venezuela’s Dr. Luis Razetti Hospital in Anzoátegui are denouncing its maternity ward for killing 17 babies in a week, the victims of sanitation so poor the ward is overtly inhabited by a swarm of opossums.

Parents say that ten babies were found dead between Saturday and Sunday morning, with another seven dying between Monday and Friday of the week before. All the parents were told their children died from a “bacterial infection”; most of the victims were premature, having been on average seven months into their gestation.

The ninth floor of the hospital, Venezuelan newspapers report, is currently suffering a major infestation of opossums, who appear to be spreading dangerous bacteria throughout the ward. One mother noted that the bathrooms on the ninth floor are out of service, and pregnant women and women who have recently given birth are forced to walk to the fifth floor to use the bathroom.

El Universal, the nation’s largest newspaper, reports that deaths of newborns at the hospital are common. One set of parents told the newspaper that their child had died on a Thursday, but they were not told until Friday. Others who have used the hospital’s services tell El Universal that the situation resembles that of a year ago, when 15 newborns died of an infection and became a rallying cry for the opposition against the socialist government’s recurring inability to provide adequate medical care.

The source of these infections seem to be opossums, who roam the hospital ward freely. One relative of a dead newborn told El Tiempo that, upon challenging hospital officials regarding the opossums, she was told “the appearance of possums is something normal in the hospital there is an invasion of this type of rodent, but there is no cause for alarm.”

The report in El Universal finds that the reason opossums are so common, says one employee at the hospital, is that sanitation employees have run out of cleaning liquids and necessary maintenance items, leaving them impotent in the face of the filth consuming the hospital.

Earlier on Tuesday, El Tiempo reported that the Anzoátegui state government’s Legislative Council will be investigating the deaths. The latest report indicates that up to 50 newborns have died in the hospital in the past month, all of a similar infection.

Venezuela’s medical situation is dire, and has been dire for years. Doctors warned in 2013, during the tenure of dictator Hugo Chávez, that nearly every kind of necessary medical supply was running out, from needles to bandages to drugs. By the next year, doctors were reporting a surge in the number of amputations at hospitals, as those injured began developing infections that doctors did not have sufficient antibiotics to suppress, and thus resorted to removing limbs.

At the time, reports indicated that 70 percent of Venezuelan pharmacies were struggling to keep stocked with basic drugs; in Caracas, the capital, that number was slightly less, 60 percent. The Venezuelan government, which controls all medical care in the country, at the time owed $4 billion to drug companies and had no way of paying the debt back, leaving pharmacies understocked.

Venezuela relies heavily on the Cuban “slave doctor” trade for its medical care, outsourcing medical jobs to doctors who are paid a meager living stipend to work long hours in Venezuelan hospitals. Even this aspect of the Venezuelan medical system is collapsing, as dozens of Cuban doctors use their assignments in Venezuela as launching pads to defect to the United States, leaving Venezuela with a shortage of doctors.

Last edited by grundle; 08-19-15 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 08-19-15, 07:13 PM   #78
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

What is the track record for privately-run hospitals in third-world countries?
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Old 08-21-15, 05:35 PM   #79
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
What is the track record for privately-run hospitals in third-world countries?
Venezuela is not a third world country. But it is heading in that direction.

Before Chavez ruined everything, the country had a thriving, successful economy, and a high standard of living. Chavez's hand chosen successor, Maduro, is now continuing Chavez's harmful policies.

Every industry that the Venezuelan government has taken over has turned to crap: supermarkets, farms, electricity, cement, construction, steel, telephones, gasoline, and health care. Please see the many links that I posted in post 64 for proof.
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Old 08-23-15, 01:54 PM   #80
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

In my opinion, this is a very poorly written article, because it doesn't explain how it's possible for people to be "smuggling" food.

Of course the real reason is the price controls. If there were no government price controls, there would be no "smuggling."

This is what Hugo Chavez referred to as "21st century socialism." And now that Chavez is dead, his hand picked successor Marudo is continuing Chavez's policies.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-34025800

Venezuela state under martial law against smugglers

August 22, 2015



At least 1,500 extra Venezuelan troops are being sent to the border

The Venezuelan president has declared a state of emergency in a border region near Colombia following an attack by smugglers in which three soldiers and a civilian were injured.

Nicolas Maduro said there would be 60 days of martial law in five municipalities in the state of Tachira.

He also said the closure of the border, announced on Thursday, would be extended until further notice.

Colombian President Juan Manuel Santos has criticised the move.

Mr Santos said ordinary people on both sides of the border, including children, would suffer the most.

"If we co-operate, the only ones to lose are the criminals, but if the border is closed, there is no co-ordination and the only ones to gain are the criminals," said Mr Santos.

Petrol and food smugglers have increasingly clashed with Venezuelan officers.

The BBC's Daniel Pardo in Venezuela reports that Mr Maduro said Colombian paramilitary groups regularly travel to Venezuela, generating chaos and shortages in order to destabilise the revolution.

Mr Maduro said an extra 1,500 soldiers had arrived to reinforce the area.

"This decree provides ample power to civil and military authorities to restore peace," he said in a broadcast on state television.

On Wednesday, three Venezuelan army officers and a civilian were injured in riots with Colombian smugglers.

Venezuela closed its border with Colombia for the first time last year.

Tensions run high along the porous 2,200-kilometre (1,370-mile) border.

Last edited by grundle; 08-23-15 at 02:23 PM.
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Old 08-23-15, 02:01 PM   #81
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Old 08-23-15, 02:25 PM   #82
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

I'm pretty sure no liberal wants the US Government to take over our grocery stores.
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Old 08-23-15, 02:38 PM   #83
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

More like grundle lack-of-logic than liberal logic.
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Old 08-23-15, 04:08 PM   #84
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
I'm pretty sure no liberal wants the US Government to take over our grocery stores.
Republicans want to tell you who to fuck and what position.

Democrats want to tell you what to eat while you're fuckin'.
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Old 08-24-15, 06:35 AM   #85
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
I'm pretty sure no liberal wants the US Government to take over our grocery stores.
President Obama gave Dolores Huerta the Medal of Freedom, the highest honor that can be given to a civilian.

Huerta said the following about Hugo Chavez:

Quote:
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/i...asp?indid=2074

"You know, I was in Venezuela recently with the president, Hugo Chavez, and he is putting up cooperative factories for the people, so that they can have work. And the people there elect their own representatives. They are making shoes for the schoolchildren, uniforms for the schoolchildren; backpacks and t-shirts. They have a cooperative farm where the people grow their own food. The military comes in to build houses for the people, and you know what? Right there, by the factory, they have a medical clinic and a dental clinic, free, free for the people. They can go to the doctor. They get their dentist and medical [care], free of charge.... Why can't we do that here in the United States?"

- Dolores Huerta

And this is what Hugo Chavez said about that so-called "cooperative farm."

Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...061903400.html

"The land is not private. It is the property of the state."

- Hugo Chavez

After Huerta said she favored the Venezuelan farms that Chavez said are owned by the government, Obama gave her the the Medal of Freedom, the highest honor that can be given to a civilian.

Here are some of the other things that Chavez did, including using the military to seize privately owned food and take over privately owned supermarkets. Spoilerized for size:

Spoiler:

This article is about people waiting in very long lines to buy food, and includes a photograph which shows how severe the problem is. But before I post it, I want to explain how it came to be this way. This did not just come about overnight. It is a direct result of policies that have been in place at least since 2003, and which have been getting more and more severe. Hugo Chavez was an incompetent, communist dictator, who wreaked havoc on Venezuela’s ability to produce goods and services. And now Maduro is continuing his policies.

How do I know that Chavez was a dictator?

Because only a dictator would use the military to seize food from private owners.

How do I know that Chavez was incompetent?

Because only a complete incompetent could create a shortage of gasoline in a country that has some of the world’s biggest oil reserves.

How do I know that Chavez was a communist?

Because only a communist would label toilet paper as a “luxury.”

Hugo Chavez did all of those things, plus a whole lot more.

Here are plenty of examples:

From 2003 until his death a decade later, Chavez had been setting strict price controls on food, and these price controls caused shortages and hoarding.

In January 2008, Chavez ordered the military to seize 750 tons of food that sellers were illegally trying to smuggle across the border to sell for higher prices than what was legal in Venezuela.

In February 2009, Chavez ordered the military to temporarily seize control of all the rice processing plants in the country and force them to produce at full capacity, which they had been avoiding in response to the price caps.

In May 2010, Chavez ordered the military to seize 120 tons of food from Empresas Polar.

In March 2009, Chavez set minimum production quotas for 12 basic foods that were subject to price controls, including white rice, cooking oil, coffee, sugar, powdered milk, cheese, and tomato sauce. Business leaders and food producers claimed that the government was forcing them to produce this food at a loss.

Chavez nationalized many large farms.

Chavez said of the farmland: “The land is not private. It is the property of the state.”

Some of the farmland that had been productive while under private ownership became idle under government ownership, and some of the farm equipment sat gathering dust. As a result, food production fell substantially.

One farmer, referring to the government officials overseeing the land redistribution, stated: “These people know nothing about agriculture.”

Chavez seized many supermarkets from their owners. Under government ownership, the shelves in these supermarkets were often empty.

In 2010, after the government nationalized the port at Puerto Cabello, more than 120,000 tons of food sat rotting at the port.

In May 2010, after price controls caused shortages of beef, at least 40 butchers were arrested, and some of them were held at a military base and strip searched by police.


Chavez’s price controls caused shortages of materials used in the construction industry.

Chavez nationalized key industries, including telephone, electricity, steel, and cement.

As a result of Chavez’s nationalizations of the steel and cement industries, production fell substantially. Nationwide production of steel rods declined 20 percent in September 2010 compared with a year earlier. Cement output fell 40 percent in the second half of 2009. These shortages caused new housing construction in 2010 to fall to less than half that of the previous year.

In 2010, the government’s mismanagement of the nationalized oil industry was so severe that the country actually had to import gasoline, despite having some of the hugest oil reserves in the world.

Also in 2010, the government’s mismanagement of the nationalized electricity industry caused shortages of electricity.

In December 2006, the Venezuelan government instituted a 15% tax on imported toilet paper, which it described as being a “luxury.”

Chavez shut down a private TV station that had criticized him.

Because of Chavez’s criticism and legal attacks against the productive members of his country, the country experienced a substantial brain drain. Doctors, teachers, entrepreneurs, business owners, software developers, advertising account executives, scientists, classical musicians, and lawyers fled the country.

Of this brain drain, Investor’s Business Daily wrote: “Chavez talks a lot about Venezuela being a rich country, and extols its vast oil wealth. But the human capital he is throwing out is far more valuable… He’s throwing away his country’s biggest treasure.”

So, after waging war against the productive members of the country for more than a decade, this is what the government has created:

http://www.businessinsider.com/long-...nezuela-2014-2

This Is A Food Line In Venezuela

February 28, 2014



People line up to buy food at a supermarket in San Cristobal, about 410 miles (660 km) southwest of Caracas, Feb. 27, 2014. U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and Pope Francis called Wednesday for an end to violence in Venezuela that has killed at least 13 people and urged politicians to take the lead in calming the nation's worst unrest in a decade.

One of the reasons Venezuelans have been protesting all over the country for weeks is because of mass shortages of food and other goods.

In December, opposition leader Leopoldo Lopez compared the country's astonishing inflation rate to Zimbabwe's. Consumer prices have risen 56% since Nicolas Maduro took power in 2013.

This line gives you a pretty stunning impression of what that's like — of how many Venezuelans have to get in line for hours to feed themselves and their families every day.

The photo was taken in San Cristobal, the capital city of the Venezuelan mountainous western state of Táchira. It's one of the epicenters of the protests, in which at least 15 have died.

And the demonstrations show no signs of abating, despite Lopez's arrest last week.

On Wednesday, the government announced new measures to try to stem inflation by creating a secondary market in which state oil firm Petroleos de Venezuela SA, individuals and other companies can purchase dollars.

President Nicolas Maduro is trying less-orthodox measures to quell protests as well. This week he announced an early start to the country's pre-Lenten Carnival festivities, meant to take place this weekend.

"The oligarchy wants to take Carnival away from the people," said Maduro to a crowd of supporters on Wednesday. "Do you all agree with that?

"No," they cried.

"Do you want me to suspend Carnival this year," he asked.

"No!"

He went on to ask if they wanted him to take Carnival from kids and cultural groups. (Of course not.)

"That is fascism," he continued. "To take from the people their cultural rights, their right to Carnival, is pure fascism!"

Despite that compelling argument, it seems the protestors aren't heading off to the beach to party on Maduro's order. They're still in the streets. The protester in the center of the picture below, taken outside a metro station in Caracas, is holding a sign that reads, "We'll trade you Carnival for security and food."



Military troops are stationed in supemarkets, telling customers not to take pictures of empty shelves. But that hasn't stopped them:


http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-30710014

Why are Venezuelans posting pictures of empty shelves?

January 8, 2015

So why did posting pictures of empty shelves suddenly become a thing on Venezuelan social media this week? The hashtag #AnaquelesVaciosEnVenezuela ("Empty shelves in Venezuela") became a worldwide Twitter trend, with over 200,000 tweets.

BBC Trending have established that it all began on New Year's Eve, when photographer Alejandro Cegarra stood across the street from a branch of the Excelsior Gama supermarket chain. He was trying to take a shot of the many long queues outside the store. He was approached by officers of the National Guard who ordered him to stop, and he live tweeted about it - capturing the attention of hundreds.

https://twitter.com/Indiferencia/sta...016064/photo/1




Meanwhile, Lech Walesa was a major participant in the defeat of communism in Eastern Europe. National Review wrote:

Quote:
http://web.archive.org/web/201206141...a-rory-cooper#

Lech Walesa was once a trade-union activist. He was often arrested for speaking his mind against Communist oppression behind the Iron Curtain in Poland and for defying the Soviet Union. He was an electrician who, with no higher education, led one of the most profound freedom movements of the 20th century — Solidarity. He became president of Poland and swept in reforms, pushing the Soviet Union out of his homeland and moving the country toward a free-market economy and individual liberty.
But President Obama wouldn’t even let Walesa in the White House.

Obama gave the highest civilian award to someone who wants the U.S. to copy the policies of communist dictator Hugo Chavez. And at the same time, Obama refused to let an anti-communist hero into the White House.

Sean Penn, Michael Moore, and Oliver Stone have also praised Hugo Chavez.

And let's not forget what Bernie Sanders said about deodorant:

Quote:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...kQN/story.html

"You don’t necessarily need a choice of 23 underarm spray deodorants or of 18 different pairs of sneakers when children are hungry in this country"

- Bernie Sanders

In the real world, a person who has access to many different kinds of deodorant is far more likely to have enough food than is someone who does not have access to many different kinds of deodorant. Sanders' comment is more in line with a North Korean style economy than a South Korean style economy.

Then there's this Marxist professor in Wisconsin, who earns $170,000 per year. I have never heard any Marxist say they were against government ownership of supermarkets. Some Marxists say the supermarkets should be owned by "the people," but that really means the government, because there's no way that any of "the people" would ever be allowed to sell their share of the supermarkets that they supposedly owned. If you aren't allowed to sell your "share" of a supermarket, then you don't really own it. So all of these Marxists want the government to own the supermarkets.
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Old 08-24-15, 09:09 AM   #86
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

I think that Bernie was pointing out an overcrowded market, not that he's going to control the deodorant market. Celebrities can praise whomever they want. Obama can be civil towards whomever he wants.

You can point out problems pointing out problems, be considerate and supporting of others' beliefs, and making suggestions. Then there's legislation. Different things.

Like business, society is experimental. There's no definite answer of how to act. There is no definite answer on how anything will turn out. The worst thing you can do is have a mindset that 'this won't work'. Socialist ideas (though in the minority) flourish in first-world Norwegian countries. Yet such a dirty word in the US, to any capacity (even though it exists in many bipartisan forms already).

You know what guarantees failure? Sitting by and doing nothing. Being too big and dumb to adapt and change.

A product of cable news and the internet, every moddle school graduate thinks they can fix Israel, fix the US economy and fix foreign policy. It's the new American dream. They hold the key to fixing the problems of the word, but shhhh, can't tell anyone. They're so sure of themselves. It's a mass delusion.
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Old 08-26-15, 06:16 AM   #87
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
The worst thing you can do is have a mindset that 'this won't work'.

Actually, one thing that's even worse than saying "this won't work" is to ignore the fact that government price caps on food have always caused shortages every time that they have ever been tried. This article is called "Four Thousand Years of Price Control." Hugo Chavez and his hand chosen successor Maduro have ignored this 4,000 years of evidence, and imposed price caps on food. After the price caps caused shortages, they used the military to take over the farms and supermarkets, even though this kind of policy has also been a failure everywhere that it has been tried.

But you say that pointing out such failures of the past is "the worst thing you can do." You are wrong. Ignoring the lessons of the past is much worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
Socialist ideas (though in the minority) flourish in first-world Norwegian countries.
Do you seriously believe that the farms and supermarkets in Scandanavian countries are owned by the government?

The 2015 Index Of Economic Freedom, which is a joint venture between the Heritage Foundaion and the Wall St. Journal, ranks Denmark, Finland, Sweden, and Norway, respectively, at 11, 19, 23, and 27 on its list of countries ranked in order of how capitalist they are. The description for Norway, the lowest ranking of those four countries, states, "Private property rights are securely protected."

By comparison, Venezuela is ranked at 176. The only countries ranked lower are Cuba and North Korea. The description for Venezuela states, "The government has expropriated nearly 1,300 businesses since 2002."

The Scandanavian countries are mixed economies, and all of them have very strong respect for private property rights. They are nothing like Venezuela.

Last edited by grundle; 08-26-15 at 06:29 AM.
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Old 08-26-15, 07:15 AM   #88
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

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Originally Posted by grundle View Post
Mod warning: this sort of gross generalization is a violation of forum rules. It contributes nothing positive to the discussion here. Repeat offenses will result in administrative action.
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Old 08-26-15, 11:15 PM   #89
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

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Originally Posted by wendersfan View Post
Mod warning: this sort of gross generalization is a violation of forum rules. It contributes nothing positive to the discussion here. Repeat offenses will result in administrative action.

By "gross generalizatilon" were you referring to the "liberal logic" part, or to the comparison of capitalism to socialism regarding bread?

Because it was the bread part that I was interested in, and I think that part is 100% accurate. And I think real world history backs me up on this.

The "liberal logic" part was just the name of the website, and I do not agree that all liberals are socialists.
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Old 08-27-15, 12:23 PM   #90
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by wendersfan View Post
Mod warning: this sort of gross generalization is a violation of forum rules. It contributes nothing positive to the discussion here. Repeat offenses will result in administrative action.
What the heck. Are you serious?
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Old 08-27-15, 02:13 PM   #91
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

I think if the condescending "liberal logic 101" was removed, it wouldn't be a problem.

The image has a narrow minded view that assumes all liberals want the government to take over food supply. That's such a naive, absurd and disproven assumption, that it's hard to address with any seriousness.
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Old 08-27-15, 03:33 PM   #92
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
The image has a narrow minded view that assumes all liberals want the government to take over food supply. That's such a naive, absurd and disproven assumption, that it's hard to address with any seriousness.
I don't think "all" liberals want the government to take over the food supply. But looking at the people who freak out over GMOs and think that Monsanto is the world's most evil organization, I don't think "zero" liberals want the government to take over the food supply, either.
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Old 08-27-15, 04:52 PM   #93
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
What the heck. Are you serious?
Thanks.

.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
I think if the condescending "liberal logic 101" was removed, it wouldn't be a problem.
Thanks.
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Old 08-27-15, 09:26 PM   #94
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
I think if the condescending "liberal logic 101" was removed, it wouldn't be a problem.
The "Liberal Logic 101" label is just a watermark from the website it originated on, it's not part of the graphic. You would think a Mod would know these things.
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Old 08-28-15, 07:48 PM   #95
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Here are some photographs from a new Wall St. Journal article. Hugo Chavez and his hand picked successor Maduro have certainly turned the country into a police state. Chavez called this "socialism." This is what happens when the government owns the means of production and controls the distribution of resources. In the long run, it must result in a police state. By comparison, in the Scandanavian countries, the farms and supermarkets are owned and operated by the private sector.

I'd be curious to see if Bernie Sanders, Dolores Huerta, Barack Obama, Sean Penn, Michael Moore, or Oliver Stone have ever said anything specifically against what Chavez and Maduro have done in regard to the kinds of things that are in these phorographs. All six of those people have either praised Hugo Chavez, given an award to someone who praised Chavez, or called themself a "socialist."

Spoilerized for size:

Spoiler:

August 26, 2015

http://www.wsj.com/articles/venezuel...ing-1440581400

Venezuela’s Food Shortages Trigger Long Lines, Hunger and Looting

Violent clashes flare in pockets of the country as citizens wait for hours for basics, such as milk and rice



Shoppers wait in a long line to enter the "Latino supermarket" in the Dr. Portillo area of Maracaibo, Venezuela, on August 12.



Shoppers have their fingerprints scanned while buying government-controlled corn flour at the "Latino Supermarket" in Maracaibo to prevent them from coming back for another ration.



National Guard soldiers stand guard in Maracaibo over bags of food confiscated from people who illegally sought to contraband state-controlled food goods for higher prices.



National Guard soldiers guard food confiscated from people who sought to sell it for more than the government-set prices.



A National Guard soldier leads detainees accused of illegally selling contraband state-controlled food goods in Maracaibo on Aug. 13.
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Old 08-28-15, 10:55 PM   #96
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Check out that guy's red Nikes! Food ain't the only thing on the black market down there.
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Old 09-30-15, 01:47 AM   #97
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

If this was Black Friday in the U.S. and they were selling 50 inch TVs for for $200, it would be pretty funny.

But it's actually Venezuelan citizens trying to get food at a government controlled supermarket, and it's quite sad:

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Old 09-30-15, 02:20 AM   #98
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

If this were labeled as capitalism, it would be quite funny. But it's labeled as socialism, so it's quite sad.
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Old 09-30-15, 08:53 AM   #99
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Do people believe that we'd have the problems that Venezuela has, if we had a socialist-leaning moderate president?

Venezuela is a developing third world country.
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Old 10-02-15, 11:46 AM   #100
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
If this were labeled as capitalism, it would be quite funny. But it's labeled as socialism, so it's quite sad.

People running for scarce cheap TVs is funny. People running for scarce food is sad.

.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
Do people believe that we'd have the problems that Venezuela has, if we had a socialist-leaning moderate president?

Venezuela is a developing third world country.
If the U.S. set price caps on food, had the military seize food from private owners, had the military seize the supermarkets from private owners, and had the government seize the farmland from private owners, then yes, we would have those same problems.

But I would not call any of those things "moderate."

Venezuela is not a "third world" country, but it will be if it continues its current policies long enough.

Last edited by grundle; 10-02-15 at 12:00 PM.
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