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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 05-05-13, 12:56 AM   #1
grundle
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Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

Over the past two decades, the number of Asian college students in the U.S. (represented by the dotted line) has doubled.

During that same time, the number of Asian students who attend Caltech, which has race blind admissions, has also doubled. This is represented by the dark red line, which largely matches the dotted line.

However, there was no such increase - or even any increase at all - in the number of Asian students who attend most of the Ivy League schools (represented by the other eight lines). The lines for most of these colleges aren't anything even close to matching the dotted line. This suggests that most Ivy League colleges have a quota that limits the number of Asian students.


http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate...ue-asian-quota

Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

By Ron Unz

April 29, 2013



Just as their predecessors of the 1920s always denied the existence of “Jewish quotas,” top officials at Harvard, Yale, Princeton and the other Ivy League schools today strongly deny the existence of “Asian quotas.” But there exists powerful statistical evidence to the contrary.

Each year, American universities provide their racial enrollment data to the National Center for Education Statistics, which makes this information available online. After the Justice Department closed an investigation in the early 1990s into charges that Harvard University discriminated against Asian-American applicants, Harvard’s reported enrollment of Asian-Americans began gradually declining, falling from 20.6 percent in 1993 to about 16.5 percent over most of the last decade.

This decline might seem small. But these same years brought a huge increase in America’s college-age Asian population, which roughly doubled between 1992 and 2011, while non-Hispanic white numbers remained almost unchanged. Thus, according to official statistics, the percentage of Asian-Americans enrolled at Harvard fell by more than 50 percent over the last two decades, while the percentage of whites changed little. This decline in relative Asian-American enrollment was actually larger than the impact of Harvard’s 1925 Jewish quota, which reduced Jewish freshmen from 27.6 percent to 15 percent.

The percentages of college-age Asian-Americans enrolled at most of the other Ivy League schools also fell during this same period, and over the last few years Asian enrollments across these different universities have converged to a very similar level and remained static over time. This raises suspicions of a joint Ivy League policy to restrict Asian-American numbers to a particular percentage.

Meanwhile, the California Institute of Technology follows a highly selective but strictly race-neutral admissions policy, and its enrollment of Asian-Americans has grown almost exactly in line with the growth of the Asian-American population.

The last 20 years have brought a huge rise in the number of Asians winning top academic awards in our high schools or being named National Merit Scholarship semifinalists. It seems quite suspicious that none of trends have been reflected in their increased enrollment at Harvard and other top Ivy League universities.

Some individuals have suggested that Asian-Americans no longer apply to the Ivy League in large numbers and this explains their reduced presence. The prestigious University of California system routinely releases the racial totals for its college applicants, which allows the public to examine admission rates by race. During the 1980s, Ivy League colleges sometimes did so as well, but more recently have begun keeping these figures secret. If Harvard and the other Ivy League schools simply released their racial application totals for the last 20 years, we might easily resolve the disturbing suspicion that they have quietly implemented a system of “Asian-American quotas.”

Last edited by grundle; 05-05-13 at 01:06 AM.
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Old 05-05-13, 01:11 AM   #2
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

The majority of students at Caltech, from what I've observed, because I've been there, is almost 50/50 white and Asian.
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Old 05-05-13, 01:51 PM   #3
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

I wonder what the quotas are like in Japan.
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Old 05-05-13, 05:46 PM   #4
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

I think the convergence of those lines is much more damning than the admissions at a Caltech.
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Old 05-05-13, 06:50 PM   #5
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

Did anyone doubt this? When states have tried outlawing racial quotas, higher education has used a number of other gamed admission policies to achieve the same desired student body profile. Racial quotas are a deeply held belief by most in charge at the University level.
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Old 05-05-13, 06:57 PM   #6
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

I'm not surprised that more Asians go to a prestigious school on the West Coast than ones on the East Coast. Why is this a story, again?
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Old 05-05-13, 11:02 PM   #7
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

Many elite schools also favor children from wealthy families.

Admission departments' talk of "extracurricular activities" and "leadership" is code for "We will admit who we damn well please."
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Old 05-06-13, 12:54 AM   #8
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

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Originally Posted by Rockmjd23 View Post
I'm not surprised that more Asians go to a prestigious school on the West Coast than ones on the East Coast. Why is this a story, again?
Why is anything on DVD Talk a story.
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Old 05-06-13, 02:32 PM   #9
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

Quote:
Originally Posted by grundle View Post
Over the past two decades, the number of Asian college students in the U.S. (represented by the dotted line) has doubled.

During that same time, the number of Asian students who attend Caltech, which has race blind admissions, has also doubled. This is represented by the dark red line, which largely matches the dotted line.

However, there was no such increase - or even any increase at all - in the number of Asian students who attend most of the Ivy League schools (represented by the other eight lines). The lines for most of these colleges aren't anything even close to matching the dotted line. This suggests that most Ivy League colleges have a quota that limits the number of Asian students.


http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate...ue-asian-quota
I hate graphs that measure two different things on the same axis. Enrollment's being measured as a percentage while population is a raw number. The population line looks close to Stanford's because it's scaled in a way that puts it at the top of the graph, but if you look at the shape of the lines you can see many of them have similar ups and downs, but they're lower overall because they're East Coast schools. For the graph to have any meaning you really need to show the Asian population by state instead of comparing against the national population.
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Old 05-06-13, 02:52 PM   #10
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

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Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
I hate graphs that measure two different things on the same axis. Enrollment's being measured as a percentage while population is a raw number. The population line looks close to Stanford's because it's scaled in a way that puts it at the top of the graph, but if you look at the shape of the lines you can see many of them have similar ups and downs, but they're lower overall because they're East Coast schools. For the graph to have any meaning you really need to show the Asian population by state instead of comparing against the national population.
I'd also be interested in the number of Asians admitted as a % of those who applied.
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Old 05-06-13, 02:52 PM   #11
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

Check out where most of the Asians in the US live:



That should roughly equal school demographics.

Two big things to remember, Asian children tend to not live far away from their families, and except for MIT, there really isn't another major East Coast university that has the same community prestige as Stanford, UCLA, or CalTech.
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Old 05-06-13, 02:55 PM   #12
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

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Originally Posted by wendersfan View Post
I'd also be interested in the number of Asians admitted as a % of those who applied.
Now you want grundle to do critical thinking?

Quote:
Two big things to remember, Asian children tend to not live far away from their families, and except for MIT, there really isn't another major East Coast university that has the same community prestige as Stanford, UCLA, or CalTech.
What community?
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Old 05-06-13, 05:00 PM   #13
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

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Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Now you want grundle to do critical thinking?



What community?
Asian community. Well, I should say Chinese really and not generalize too much. My Chinese co-worker has a daughter entering high school, I get daily updates on schools the parents are already doing leg-work on getting the children into. Not only do the parents obsess over how their children do in school, they obsess over how the other kids are doing.

She is currently upset that her daughter wants to go into a drama program somewhere instead of medicine at Stanford. She wants to pull her out of community drama school (which she took to look good on college applications) unless she promises to still major in medicine. As a compromise, she will be allowed to take drama as an elective.

The reason the parents picked drama was to stand out from all the children taking violin or piano. Other fun fact: apparently the Chinese parents are all afraid the children coming from India will fill up all the good schools. When I commented that the private elementary school near me was mostly Indian children she new right away which one I was talking about. Apparently there is such a rivalry that they have self-regulated which schools were going to be Chinese or Indian friendly, and there is very little overlap.

The Bay Area is a crazy place to live.
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Old 05-06-13, 05:12 PM   #14
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

Quote:
Originally Posted by Navinabob View Post
Asian community. Well, I should say Chinese really and not generalize too much. My Chinese co-worker has a daughter entering high school, I get daily updates on schools the parents are already doing leg-work on getting the children into. Not only do the parents obsess over how their children do in school, they obsess over how the other kids are doing.

She is currently upset that her daughter wants to go into a drama program somewhere instead of medicine at Stanford. She wants to pull her out of community drama school (which she took to look good on college applications) unless she promises to still major in medicine. As a compromise, she will be allowed to take drama as an elective.

The reason the parents picked drama was to stand out from all the children taking violin or piano. Other fun fact: apparently the Chinese parents are all afraid the children coming from India will fill up all the good schools. When I commented that the private elementary school near me was mostly Indian children she new right away which one I was talking about. Apparently there is such a rivalry that they have self-regulated which schools were going to be Chinese or Indian friendly, and there is very little overlap.

The Bay Area is a crazy place to live.
Wait, so you contend that the Asian, (or just the Chinese), community in this country believe that UCLA has more cachet than Harvard, Penn, or any of the Ivies?
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Old 05-06-13, 08:16 PM   #15
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

Some Ivy League Schools also seem to favor Jewish white people over non-Jewish white people. Read about the discrepancy in enrollment between Harvard and MIT, which are next-door neighbors.

The Myth of American Meritocracy by Ron Unz (Harvard graduate) at TheAmericanConservative.com

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We are therefore faced with the clear conundrum that Jewish students seem to constitute roughly 6 percent of America’s highest-ability high school graduates and non-Jewish whites around 65–70 percent, but these relative ratios differ by perhaps 1000 percent from the enrollments we actually find at Harvard and the other academic institutions which select America’s future elites. Meanwhile, an ethnic distribution much closer to this apparent ability-ratio is found at Caltech, whose admissions are purely meritocratic, unlike the completely opaque, subjective, and discretionary Ivy League system so effectively described by Karabel, Golden, and others.

One obvious explanatory factor is that the Ivy League is located in the Northeast, a region of the country in which the Jewish fraction of the population is more than twice the national average. However, these schools also constitute America’s leading national universities, so their geographical intake is quite broad, with Harvard drawing less than 40 percent of its American students from its own region, and the others similarly tending to have a nationally distributed enrollment. So this factor would probably explain only a small portion of the discrepancy. Furthermore, MIT utilizes a considerably more meritocratic and objective admissions system than Harvard, and although located just a few miles away has a ratio of Jewish to non-Jewish whites which differs by nearly a factor of four in favor of the latter compared to its crosstown rival.

...

Perhaps Jews simply apply to these schools in far greater relative numbers, with successful, educationally-ambitious Jewish families being much more likely to encourage their bright children to aim at the Ivies than the parents of equally bright non-Jews. However, since these elite schools release no information regarding the ethnic or racial skew of their applications, we have no evidence for this hypothesis. And why would high-ability non-Jews be 600 percent or 800 percent more likely to apply to Caltech and MIT than to those other elite schools, which tend to have a far higher national profile?
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Old 05-07-13, 08:01 AM   #16
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

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Wait, so you contend that the Asian, (or just the Chinese), community in this country believe that UCLA has more cachet than Harvard, Penn, or any of the Ivies?
That's what I was thinking as well.
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Old 05-07-13, 09:19 AM   #17
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

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Originally Posted by Pharoh View Post
Wait, so you contend that the Asian, (or just the Chinese), community in this country believe that UCLA has more cachet than Harvard, Penn, or any of the Ivies?
I think they prefer UCB over UCLA. It's cheaper than those other schools and keeps the kids closer to home. IE my brother wanted to go to Penn but UCB was cheaper and closer to home.
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Old 05-07-13, 11:40 AM   #18
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

Of course everyone with the brains wants to go to to Penn or Princeton, etc. But economic and geographical conditions dictate where you go. I'm thinking someone with a scholarship to either Princeton or UCB is going to pick Princeton most of the time unless geography gets in the way. (Which would be a silly reason to turn down a scholarship to Princeton.)
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Old 05-07-13, 12:14 PM   #19
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

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Originally Posted by Krayzie View Post
I think they prefer UCB over UCLA. It's cheaper than those other schools and keeps the kids closer to home. IE my brother wanted to go to Penn but UCB was cheaper and closer to home.
If talking about the west coast, sure. I get that completely. And I think UCB is a phenomenal school, btw. Not true though when speaking about the nation at large.
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Old 05-07-13, 12:17 PM   #20
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

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Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Of course everyone with the brains wants to go to to Penn or Princeton, etc. But economic and geographical conditions dictate where you go. I'm thinking someone with a scholarship to either Princeton or UCB is going to pick Princeton most of the time unless geography gets in the way. (Which would be a silly reason to turn down a scholarship to Princeton.)
Not everybody, as there are other reasons. For example, the rampant elitist and snobbish attitude at Princeton, which is the worst among the Ivies. (Can't speak about Brown). Not everybody fits everywhere.
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Old 05-07-13, 01:31 PM   #21
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

Thats because it IS elite.
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Old 05-07-13, 01:42 PM   #22
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

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Wait, so you contend that the Asian, (or just the Chinese), community in this country believe that UCLA has more cachet than Harvard, Penn, or any of the Ivies?
This. I await Navinbob's return to explain this. Any kid that performs at a level that will get him into the Ivy League is going to go to an Ivy League school if accepted. UCLA, Stanford, Cal are excellent schools but I cannot fathom a kid getting in to Harvard and Cal and picking Cal for "geographic reasons". That's like choosing to eat a hot dog instead of filet mignon because it happens to be nearest to you on the table.

Last edited by Mabuse; 05-07-13 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 05-07-13, 02:01 PM   #23
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

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Originally Posted by Pharoh View Post
Not everybody, as there are other reasons. For example, the rampant elitist and snobbish attitude at Princeton, which is the worst among the Ivies. (Can't speak about Brown). Not everybody fits everywhere.
You've obviously never met anyone that went to Yale.

As for this thread, the discrimination against Asians is largely due to their overwhelming success on standard measures for applying to elite schools. If you are Asian and applying to Harvard, you are being compared against the much higher achievements of the other Asian kids applying to Harvard, not just against the general application pool.

There is a finite number of people that each elite school can accept and this is what happens when you implement de facto affirmative action. There are simply too many qualified candidates and the schools have decided to shape the student body profile on qualities other than pure merit.
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Old 05-07-13, 02:11 PM   #24
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

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Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
and the schools have decided to shape the student body profile on qualities other than pure merit.
aka quotas

P.S. I don't really have a problem with this. They are private institutions that do a great job at educating. I don't think anyone can jump in their way and say they are doing anything wrong when they've got so much success to show.
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Old 05-07-13, 02:34 PM   #25
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Re: Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota

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This. I await Navinbob's return to explain this. Any kid that performs at a level that will get him into the Ivy League is going to go to an Ivy League school if accepted. UCLA, Stanford, Cal are excellent schools but I cannot fathom a kid getting in to Harvard and Cal and picking Cal for "geographic reasons". That's like choosing to eat a hot dog instead of filet mignon because it happens to be nearest to you on the table.
How about financial reasons? If you live in California, and you get into UCLA and Harvard, it will be much cheaper to go to UCLA, unless you're getting a lot of scholarships and aid.
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