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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 04-04-13, 11:05 PM   #76
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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The employer is the most proximate beneficiary of the employee's physical and mental well-being (compared to the average local, regional, or national taxpayer), so the employer should pay the living wage.
I disagree since they're not the ones who determined the employee was worth what society decided the employee was worth. And the long term effects are easily seen with offshoring and automation. Who do you think is picking up the tab for that?
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Old 04-04-13, 11:06 PM   #77
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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False.

Any given person is capable of working a multitude of jobs. And when people select a career, salary is only one factor that they consider. To provide a concrete example, women tend to gravitate toward jobs that pay less, but provide more security. Historically, they have also been discriminated against by men with greater political power. So today women make less money than men, NOT because they are worth less, but due to choice and human bias (among other things).

The bottom line is that human thinking -- knowledge, motivations, value judgments, etc. -- and human systems are complex, flawed, and somewhat arbitrary.
And the employee decided what compensation they wanted and they got what they were worth. You know better? Must be nice.
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Old 04-04-13, 11:14 PM   #78
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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I disagree since they're not the ones who determined the employee was worth what society decided the employee was worth.
I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here, but I do think it's important to remember that there is a world of difference between the cost of a man's labor and the worth of that man.
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Old 04-04-13, 11:20 PM   #79
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here, but I do think it's important to remember that there is a world of difference between the cost of a man's labor and the worth of that man.
Oh, I absolutely agree. I'm just talking about the man's worth to his employer.
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Old 04-04-13, 11:36 PM   #80
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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I disagree since they're not the ones who determined the employee was worth what society decided the employee was worth. And the long term effects are easily seen with offshoring and automation. Who do you think is picking up the tab for that?
Some employers may prefer unhealthy, lower-cost employees over healthy, higher-cost ones. These employers may believe that they will make more profits, in spite of problems resulting from their employees' poor health. And their calculation may be correct. But they find themselves in a morally indefensible position. They are placing profits over people.

To avoid the appearance of being cruel and uncaring, these employers must argue that market forces compel them to pay low wages. We must remain competitive, they say. And this is partly true -- employers who pay higher wages (whether they want to pay higher wages or they have merely been forced to pay higher wages, e.g. through collective bargaining with a union) must compete against employers who pay lower wages. To level the playing field, government must intervene and raise wages in a stepwise manner until a living wage is reached. At the same time, government must work to establish international treaties respecting all workers' rights.
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Old 04-04-13, 11:42 PM   #81
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Some employers may prefer unhealthy, lower-cost employees over healthy, higher-cost ones. These employers may believe that they will make more profits, in spite of problems resulting from their employees' poor health. And their calculation may be correct. But they find themselves in a morally indefensible position. They are placing profits over people.

To avoid the appearance of being cruel and uncaring, these employers must argue that market forces compel them to pay low wages. We must remain competitive, they say. And this is partly true -- employers who wish to pay higher wages must compete with employers who wish to pay lower wages. To level the playing field, government must intervene and raise wages in a stepwise manner until a living wage is reached.
That's what you have decided and I'm happy if you want to pay for it. But you're fooling yourself if you think you're putting the burden on employers, you end up paying for it anyway. It's just that by putting the burden on employers you disguise what your value judgments are costing society for their decisions. And that's the trick.
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Old 04-04-13, 11:43 PM   #82
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

The idea some look at the minimum wage needs to be raised to be a "Living Wage" is silly and absurd. it was never intendd to be a "Living Wage". It's been there as a starting point and intention of advancing one's live to better pay and a better job.

If you want or demand a better and higher pay....living wage...then you better yourself, change jobs and change careers. Todays mindsite of the workplace is somewhat like the unions....the workplace exists for them...not them for the business. The business is there to provide pay, benifits, vacation, childcare, healthcare, tutition,etc...for them. They're not there to actually work for someone or some company and make it better?

As to their demand for $15 an hour...why stop there? Being NYC I'm sure the Mayor, Democrats and supporters will agree lets make it $20 or better yet $25 and hour. You'll need that for a "Living Wage" in NY. Just establish a Minimun $25 an hour for all of New York State and everyone will be happy. Everyone will be making plenty of money, there will be plenty of jobs, plenty of tax revenue....NY will be a utopia.
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Old 04-05-13, 12:06 AM   #83
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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That's what you have decided and I'm happy if you want to pay for it. But you're fooling yourself if you think you're putting the burden on employers, you end up paying for it anyway. It's just that by putting the burden on employers you disguise what your value judgments are costing society for their decisions. And that's the trick.
To me, this is a defeatist attitude. Obviously, a minority has oversize power, which they exert to maintain and, if possible, increase their power. The solution is to educate and empower other people (the 99% or whatever). After all, the US is supposed to be a democracy, not an aristocracy.

And yet the will of the people is slighted. Most people believe that the minimum wage should be increased.
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Old 04-05-13, 07:56 AM   #84
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/19/us...underpaid.html

Lost in Recession, Toll on Underemployed and Underpaid

By MICHAEL COOPER Published: June 18, 2012

Throughout the Great Recession and the not-so-great recovery, the most commonly discussed measure of misery has been unemployment. But many middle-class and working-class people who are fortunate enough to have work are struggling as well, which is why Sherry Woods, a 59-year-old van driver from Atlanta, found herself standing in line at a jobs fair this month, with her résumé tucked inside a Bible.

Ms. Woods’s current job has not been meeting her needs. When she began driving a passenger van last year, she earned $9 an hour and worked 40 hours a week. Then her wage was cut to $8 an hour, and her hours were drastically scaled back. Last month she earned just $233. So Ms. Woods, who said that she had been threatened with eviction for missing rent payments and had been postponing an appointment with the eye doctor because she lacks insurance, has been looking for another, better job. It has not been easy.

“I’m looking for something else, anything else,” she said. “More hours. Better pay. Actual benefits.”

These are anxious days for American workers. Many, like Ms. Woods, are underemployed. Others find pay that is simply not keeping up with their expenses: adjusted for inflation, the median hourly wage was lower in 2011 than it was a decade earlier, according to data from a forthcoming book by the Economic Policy Institute, “The State of Working America, 12th Edition.” Good benefits are harder to come by, and people are staying longer in jobs that they want to leave, afraid that they will not be able to find something better. Only 2.1 million people quit their jobs in March, down from the 2.9 million people who quit in December 2007, the first month of the recession.

“Unfortunately, the wage problems brought on by the recession pile on top of a three-decade stagnation of wages for low- and middle-wage workers,” said Lawrence Mishel, the president of the Economic Policy Institute, a research group in Washington that studies the labor market. “In the aftermath of the financial crisis, there has been persistent high unemployment as households reduced debt and scaled back purchases. The consequence for wages has been substantially slower growth across the board, including white-collar and college-educated workers.”

Now, with the economy shaping up as the central issue of the presidential election, both President Obama and Mitt Romney have been relentlessly trying to make the case that their policies would bring prosperity back. The unease of voters is striking: in a New York Times/CBS News poll in April, half of the respondents said they thought the next generation of Americans would be worse off, while only about a quarter said it would have a better future.

And household wealth is dropping. The Federal Reserve reported last week that the economic crisis left the median American family in 2010 with no more wealth than in the early 1990s, wiping away two decades of gains. With stocks too risky for many small investors and savings accounts paying little interest, building up a nest egg is a challenge even for those who can afford to sock away some of their money.

Expenses like putting a child through college — where tuition has been rising faster than inflation or wages — can be a daunting task. When Morgan Woodward, 21, began her freshman year at the University of California, Berkeley, three years ago, her parents paid about $9,000 a year in tuition and fees. Now they pay closer to $13,000, and they are bracing for the possibility of another jump next year. With their incomes flat, though, they recently borrowed money to pay for her final year, and to begin paying the tuition of their son, who plans to start college this fall.

“You know there is going to be small incremental increases in tuition, but not the 8, 10, 12 percent increase every year we’ve seen,” said Ms. Woodward’s father, Cliff Woodward, 52, who lives in Pleasanton, Calif., and is an independent sales representative for an eyeglass company. So the Woodwards, who drive cars with 150,000 and 120,000 miles on them, have cut back.

“No vacations, no big screens,” Mr. Woodward said. “We’ve cut down on going out a little bit, but it’s worth it.”

People with college degrees still get jobs with better pay and benefits than those without, but many recent college graduates are finding it hard to land the kinds of jobs they had envisioned. David Thande, 27, who graduated from the University of California, Los Angeles, five years ago, works part time as a clerk in an Apple Store.

“I’m not even full time, so I spend about 45 minutes every day begging people for hours, checking if someone canceled, struggling to make it work,” Mr. Thande said, adding that he had fallen behind on paying back his student loans.

Garland Miller, 28, who has degrees in finance and accounting from the University of Georgia and Kennesaw State University, had hoped to land a job at a big accounting firm, and to have been able to buy a home by now. Instead he finds himself working as the lead server at a steakhouse. But he has not given up on trying to move into the field that he prepared himself for: This month, he attended a jobs fair in Duluth, a suburb of Atlanta, organized by the University of Georgia for its alumni.

“I’m not in a job where I’m using all of my skills,” Mr. Miller said. He said that with many baby boomers unable to retire as early as they had hoped, there are fewer opportunities for younger workers to move up and take their places. “Instead you have everybody competing for entry-level positions,” he said.

Things are much worse for people without college degrees, though. The real entry-level hourly wage for men who recently graduated from high school fell to $11.68 last year, from $15.64 in 1979, according to data from the Economic Policy Institute. And the percentage of those jobs that offer health insurance has plummeted to 22.8 percent, from 63.3 percent in 1979.

Though inflation has stayed relatively low in recent years, it has remained high for some of the most important things: college, health care and even, recently, food. The price of food in the home rose by 4.8 percent last year, one of the biggest jumps in the last two decades.

Sam Chea, 38, who lives in Oakland and works nights delivering pizzas for Domino’s, said that he had been feeling the pinch at grocery stores, and worried that his lack of a college education was making it harder for him to find decent work. The other day he went to the nearby city of El Cerrito to apply for a second job at Nation’s Giant Hamburgers, a regional chain.

“I’ll be more secure with another job,” he said. “It’s scary. I don’t have an education, and I’m worried about my rent.”

“Everything’s gone up. Rent went up, gas went up, food went up, milk went up, cheeseburgers went up, even cigarettes went up,” said Mr. Chea, who had stopped at the barbershop to spiff up before his job interview. “I’m used to getting a haircut for $6 or $7, but they charged me $9. Even haircuts have gone up.”
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Old 04-05-13, 08:09 AM   #85
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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you say that like it is a negative thing
Um yeah, when it comes at the expense of lots of other people. Don't get me wrong, I want business owners to make lots of money but "lots of money" is a relative term and still remains at "lots" even if these workers were thrown a bone in the form of higher wages.
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Old 04-05-13, 08:23 AM   #86
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Personally disagree. MW jobs should be entry jobs. High School kids jobs. A 2nd job. No one should think a career of a MW job.

I don't think it realistic for a family of four to live on, buy a home, save for retirement on MW earner.

I'm not even sure we need a MW anymore. There are exceptions (tip earners for example). But that is another discussion.
You don't often leave suburbia, do you?

Come work in an urban school district and you will be enlightened, to say the least.

No offense, but your posts come off as never knowing or encountering in any personal way very poor people. This isn't just a few slackers, this is 15% of Americans currently surviving below the poverty line.

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Old 04-05-13, 08:37 AM   #87
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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And yet the will of the people is slighted. Most people believe that the minimum wage should be increased.
There's a difference between believing the minimum wage should be increased and believing the minimum wage being increased to a career salary.
I am for the minimum wage to be increased a dollar or so. I certainly don't believe it should be $15. These type of jobs were never meant to be a living wage and shouldn't be.
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Old 04-05-13, 08:42 AM   #88
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

So when our community loses Bethlehem Steel and tens of thousands of jobs and decades later the only jobs left are "these types of jobs" then fuck em, right?
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Old 04-05-13, 08:44 AM   #89
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

This seems like as good as any a place to post this:

http://www.dominionpaper.ca/articles/4100

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September 5, 2011

A Town Without Poverty?
Canada's only experiment in guaranteed income finally gets reckoning

by Vivian Belik

WHITEHORSE, YK—Try to imagine a town where the government paid each of the residents a living income, regardless of who they were and what they did, and a Soviet hamlet in the early 1980s may come to mind.

But this experiment happened much closer to home. For a four-year period in the '70s, the poorest families in Dauphin, Manitoba, were granted a guaranteed minimum income by the federal and provincial governments. Thirty-five years later all that remains of the experiment are 2,000 boxes of documents that have gathered dust in the Canadian archives building in Winnipeg.

Until now little has been known about what unfolded over those four years in the small rural town, since the government locked away the data that had been collected and prevented it from being analyzed.

But after a five year struggle, Evelyn Forget, a professor of health sciences at the University of Manitoba, secured access to those boxes in 2009. Until the data is computerized, any systematic analysis is impossible. Undeterred, Forget has begun to piece together the story by using the census, health records, and the testimony of the program's participants. What is now emerging reveals that the program could have counted many successes.

Beginning in 1974, Pierre Trudeau's Liberals and Manitoba's first elected New Democratic Party government gave money to every person and family in Dauphin who fell below the poverty line. Under the program—called “Mincome”—about 1,000 families received monthly cheques.


Unlike welfare, which only certain individuals qualified for, the guaranteed minimum income project was open to everyone. It was the first—and to this day, only—time that Canada has ever experimented with such an open-door social assistance program.

In today’s conservative political climate, with constant government and media rhetoric about the inefficiency and wastefulness of the welfare state, the Mincome project sounds like nothing short of a fairy tale.

For four years Dauphin was a place where anyone living below the poverty line could receive monthly cheques to boost their income, no questions asked. Single mothers could afford to put their kids through school and low-income families weren't scrambling to pay the rent each month.

For Amy Richardson, it meant she could afford to buy her children books for school. Richardson joined the program in 1977, just after her husband had gone on disability leave from his job. At the time, she was struggling to raise her three youngest children on $1.50 haircuts she gave in her living room beauty parlour.

The $1,200 per year she received in monthly increments was a welcome supplement, in a time when the poverty line was $2,100 a year.

“The extra money meant that I was also able to give my kids something I wouldn't ordinarily be able to, like taking them to a show or some small luxury like that,” said Richardson, now 84, who spoke to The Dominion by phone from Dauphin.

As part of the experiment, an army of researchers were sent to Dauphin to interview the Mincome families. Residents in nearby rural towns who didn't receive Mincome were also surveyed so their statistics could be compared against those from Dauphin. But after the government cut the program in 1978, they simply warehoused the data and never bothered to analyze it.

“When the government introduced the program they really thought it would be a pilot project and that by the end of the decade they would roll this out and everybody would participate,” said Forget. “They thought it would become a universal program. But of course, the idea eventually just died off.”

During the Mincome program, the federal and provincial governments collectively spent $17 million, though it was initially supposed to have cost only a few million.

Meant to last several more years, the program came to a quick halt in 1978 when an economic recession hit Canada. The recession had caused prices to increase 10 per cent each year, so payouts to families under Mincome had increased accordingly.

Trudeau's Liberals, already on the defensive for an overhaul of Canada's employment insurance system, killed the program and withheld any additional money to analyze the data that had been amassed.

“It's hugely unfortunate and typical of the strange ways in which government works that the data was never analyzed,” says Ron Hikel who coordinated the Mincome program. Hikel now works in the United States to promote universal healthcare reform.

“Government officials opposed [to Mincome] didn't want to spend more money to analyze the data and show what they already thought: that it didn't work,” says Hikel, who remains a strong proponent of guaranteed income programs.

“And the people who were in favour of Mincome were worried because if the analysis was done and the data wasn't favourable then they would have just spent another million dollars on analysis and be even more embarrassed.”

But Forget has culled some useful info from Manitoba labour data. Her research confirms numerous positive consequences of the program.

Initially, the Mincome program was conceived as a labour market experiment. The government wanted to know what would happen if everybody in town received a guaranteed income, and specifically, they wanted to know whether people would still work.

It turns out they did.


Only two segments of Dauphin's labour force worked less as a result of Mincome—new mothers and teenagers. Mothers with newborns stopped working because they wanted to stay at home longer with their babies. And teenagers worked less because they weren't under as much pressure to support their families.

The end result was that they spent more time at school and more teenagers graduated. Those who continued to work were given more opportunities to choose what type of work they did.

“People didn't have to take the first job that came along,” says Hikel. “They could wait for something better that suited them.”


For some, it meant the opportunity to land a job to help them get by.

When Doreen and Hugh Henderson arrived in Dauphin in 1970 with their two young children they were broke. Doreen suggested moving from Vancouver to her hometown because she thought her husband would have an easier time finding work there. But when they arrived, things weren't any better.

“My husband didn't have a very good job and I couldn't find work,” she told The Dominion by phone from Dauphin.

It wasn't until 1978, after receiving Mincome payments for two years, that her husband finally landed janitorial work at the local school, a job he kept for 28 years.

“I don't know how we would have lived without [Mincome],” said Doreen.“I don't know if we would have stayed in Dauphin.”

Although the Mincome experiment was intended to provide a body of information to study labour market trends, Forget discovered that Mincome had a significant effect on people's well being. Two years ago, the professor started studying the health records of Dauphin residents to assess the impacts of the program.

In the period that Mincome was administered, hospital visits dropped 8.5 per cent. Fewer people went to the hospital with work-related injuries and there were fewer emergency room visits from car accidents and domestic abuse. There were also far fewer mental health visits.


It's not hard to see why, says Forget.

“When you walk around a hospital, it's pretty clear that a lot of the time what we're treating are the consequences of poverty,” she says.

Give people financial independence and control over their lives and these accidents and illnesses tend to dissipate, says Forget. In today's terms, an 8.5 per cent decrease in hospital visits across Canada would save the government $4 billion annually, by her calculations. And $4 billion is the amount that the federal government is currently trying to save by slashing social programming and arts funding.

Having analyzed the health data, Forget is now working on a cost-benefit analysis to see what a guaranteed income program might save the federal government if it were implemented today. She’s already worked with a Senate committee investigating a guaranteed income program for all low-income Canadians.

The Canadian government's sudden interest in guaranteed income programs doesn't surprise Forget.

Every 10 or 15 years there seems to be a renewed interest in getting Guaranteed Income (GI) programs off the ground, according to Saskatchewan social work professor James Mulvale. He's researched and written extensively about guaranteed income programs and is also part the Canadian chapter of the Basic Income Earth Network, a worldwide organization that advocates for guaranteed income.

GI programs exist in countries like Brazil, Mexico, France and even the state of Alaska.

Although people may not recognize it, subtle forms of guaranteed income already exist in Canada, says Mulvale, pointing to the child benefit tax, guaranteed income for seniors and the modest GST/HST rebate program for low-income earners.

However, a wider-reaching guaranteed income program would go a long way in decreasing poverty, he says.

Mulvale is in favour of a “demo-grant” model of GI that would give automatic cash transfers to everybody in Canada. This kind of plan would also provide the option of taxing higher-income earners at the end of the year so poorer people receive benefits.

A model such as this has a higher chance of broad support because it goes out to everybody, according to Mulvale. GI can also be administered as a negative income tax to the poor, meaning they'd receive an amount of money back directly in proportion to what they make each year.

“GI by itself wouldn't eliminate poverty but it would go a heck of a long way to decrease the extent of poverty in this country,” says Mulvale.

Conservative senator Hugh Segal has been the biggest supporter of this kind of GI, claiming it would eliminate the social assistance programs now administered by the provinces and territories. Rather than having a separate office to administer child tax benefits, welfare, unemployment insurance and income supplement for seniors, they could all be rolled into one GI scheme.

It would also mean that anybody could apply for support. Many people fall through the cracks under the current welfare system, says Forget. Not everybody can access welfare and those who can are penalized for going to school or for working a job since the money they receive from welfare is then clawed back.

If a guaranteed income program can target more people and is more efficient than other social assistance programs, then why doesn't Canada have such a program in place already? Perhaps the biggest barrier is the prevalence of negative stereotypes about poor people.

“There's very strong feelings out there that we shouldn't give people money for nothing,” Mulvale says.

Guaranteed income proponents aren't holding their breaths that they'll see such a program here anytime soon, but they are hopeful that one day Canada will consider the merits of guaranteed income.

The cost would be "not nearly as prohibitive to do as people imagine it is," says Forget. “A guaranteed minimum income program is a superior way of delivering social assistance. The only thing is that it's of course politically difficult to implement.”

Vivian Belik is a freelance journalist based in the frozen northlands of Whitehorse, Yukon. She was, however, raised in Manitoba where she has spotted many of the provinces small-town statues including the giant beaver in Dauphin.
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Old 04-05-13, 09:04 AM   #90
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
You don't often leave suburbia, do you?

Come work in an urban school district and you will be enlightened, to say the least.

No offense, but your posts come off as never knowing or encountering in any personal way very poor people. This isn't just a few slackers, this is 15% of Americans currently surviving below the poverty line.
Maybe I'm not making myself clear.

I'm in no way minimizing those that struggle or have a hard time. I very much know plenty who do.

However my main arguement is not the individual, but the job. As has been mentioned, everyone gets paid what they are worth. But it's not what the individual is "worth" (jobs should never define a persons worth) it is the job that defines the pay.

For example "back in the day" I applied to work at an airline company. I had a degree and several years of experience. The airline started ALL employees in baggage handling and paid them a baggage handlers rate. Even if you were looking to working and qualified to work in Marketing making 6 figures, you started in baggage making a little above MW.

If some was a CEO of a major company, but retires and now wants to be a part time greeter at Walmart, they should get paid as a greeter at Wally World, not as a CEO. They would be geeting paid what they are worth for that job. Maybe he then decides to be a consultant for his old company. He might make six figures doing that, while make MW at Walmart.

Sooo...same at McDonalds, you should get paid for the job. It's in no way a criticism of the person. Not a critisism of the job.

But I don't believe a private business should be in business to make sure everyone can earn a living. They make widgets. And they should not be forced to take on any more than that. If the company is following all employment rules and the job is only a basic job, the person should get a basic income. If that is not enough for the individual, there are options in the form of bettering themselves or seeking help from the state, their church, etc.
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Old 04-05-13, 09:23 AM   #91
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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This seems like as good as any a place to post this:

http://www.dominionpaper.ca/articles/4100
Which isn't the same thing as dictating to markets. If people want to consider an increase in earned income tax credits for affected individuals, I would listen. Not sure if it the best answer, but it sure would be better than regulating private business make up the shortfall.
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Old 04-05-13, 09:24 AM   #92
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

Sdallnct,

And likewise, companies shouldn't rely on the US Government to bail their sorry asses out, as well. But as we know, that's a joke, and it will continue. So, I say if corporations are getting help from the Fed in ANY WAY, then they can take on more responsibilities of the employees.

If companies were so independent like you say they are, then I'd agree with you. But today, corporations are lobbying legislators to make laws which fund them, making it very far from a capitalistic society.
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Old 04-05-13, 09:25 AM   #93
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
There's a difference between believing the minimum wage should be increased and believing the minimum wage being increased to a career salary.
I am for the minimum wage to be increased a dollar or so. I certainly don't believe it should be $15. These type of jobs were never meant to be a living wage and shouldn't be.
Agreed. Though I'm pretty indifferent on MW. I'm not sure it's needed...but I'm ok with it so long as their are exceptions based on the job.

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Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
So when our community loses Bethlehem Steel and tens of thousands of jobs and decades later the only jobs left are "these types of jobs" then fuck em, right?
It sucks to lose a high paying job. But it does happen. And all over.

My best friend was making $75-90k. But his job went automated. He simply can't get that now for that job. Should he get $80,000 at McDonalds because that is what he was making before? Silliness.

As a side note, he is being stubborn. He could get a job tomorrow making $25,000-$30,000. But he won't as he is hung up on HIS worth. Not the job.

I've mentioned before, anyone that puts their livelihood in someone's hands (or in a companies hands) is not doing themselves any favors and taking a gamble. I've been with my company 24 years and likely will be till I retire (hopefully). However I've had to take on new jobs and new departments and learn new things to achieve what I have. In addition, I keep an external résumé up today and every couple months call or have lunch with friends who work for other companies. You never know.

And FYI I flunked out of high school. And struggled mightily and paid much of my own way (MW) to get a four year degree in a very quick 6 years...lol. So I'm in no way "special".
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Old 04-05-13, 09:33 AM   #94
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Sdallnct,

And likewise, companies shouldn't rely on the US Government to bail their sorry asses out, as well. But as we know, that's a joke, and it will continue. So, I say if corporations are getting help from the Fed in ANY WAY, then they can take on more responsibilities of the employees.

If companies were so independent like you say they are, then I'd agree with you. But today, corporations are lobbying legislators to make laws which fund them, making it very far from a capitalistic society.
Well, I agree with you. I'm not sure i agree with bail outs. Just the idea of who decides what companies should be bailed out and those that don't is disturbing (Kodak was a grand old company, but went down without much of a thought).

But let's not forget that much of the reasons for the bailouts was so that those regular employees would continue to have a job. No one was suggesting bailouts to help the "poor" CEO's and their staff.

I do agree that if anyone (including the Feds) lends money to a company they should have rules for repaying that are agrees on.

However, as pro-business as I am, I do not want private, for profit companies trying to be moral or social stewards. I think that a very scary proposition.
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Old 04-05-13, 09:37 AM   #95
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Originally Posted by Pharoh View Post
Which isn't the same thing as dictating to markets. If people want to consider an increase in earned income tax credits for affected individuals, I would listen. Not sure if it the best answer, but it sure would be better than regulating private business make up the shortfall.
"The market" is an ideological construct just like anything else, and when it stops working for people (which ostensibly, is the point of any ideology) then it should be modified or abandoned.
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Old 04-05-13, 10:22 AM   #96
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet View Post
"The market" is an ideological construct just like anything else, and when it stops working for people (which ostensibly, is the point of any ideology) then it should be modified or abandoned.
And who decides when it's not working? Obviously The People. But is it a majority? Those feeling oppressed? Those that like the system as is?
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Old 04-05-13, 10:25 AM   #97
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet
During the Mincome program, the federal and provincial governments collectively spent $17 million, though it was initially supposed to have cost only a few million.
You forgot to bold this part.

Or maybe you didn't.
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Old 04-05-13, 10:30 AM   #98
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Originally Posted by printerati View Post
You forgot to bold this part.

Or maybe you didn't.
No, I didn't forget to bold it, it's not relevant to, well, anything. Whether it's $7 million dollars or $17 million dollars, it's a rounding error to large corporations pulling in billions of dollars of profit a year.
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Old 04-05-13, 10:32 AM   #99
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
And who decides when it's not working? Obviously The People. But is it a majority? Those feeling oppressed? Those that like the system as is?
A majority, obviously.
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Old 04-05-13, 10:34 AM   #100
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet View Post
No, I didn't forget to bold it, it's not relevant to, well, anything. Whether it's $7 million dollars or $17 million dollars, it's a rounding error to large corporations pulling in billions of dollars of profit a year.
It might be a "rounding error" when talking about 1,000 families in one town. Extend it to the entire country, and...not so much.
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