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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 09-29-12, 02:07 PM   #101
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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Old 09-29-12, 04:19 PM   #102
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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Originally Posted by PenguinJoe View Post
Chicago cop held on $100,000 bail, accused of having sex with prisoner



http://www.suntimes.com/news/1543234...-prisoner.html
Always wondered what kind of line-up this would entail. Depends on the police force, I guess.
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Old 09-29-12, 06:03 PM   #103
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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I know that all cops aren't "bad guys" but if this kind of shit doesn't stop happening no one* in the future is going to trust the police force.

I imagine it's infuriating to DeputyDave and other officers that this type of shit happens every now and again. Just being a member of the public, seeing this kind of shit is extremely infuriating.

*By "no one" of course I don't mean everyone but a ton of people.
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Old 09-29-12, 06:37 PM   #104
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

How many YouTube videos are taken of cops who arrest and cite people on an average day...without incident or intruding on their legal rights?

Most cops aren't bad. Most people who are arrested and cited by cops aren't bad, either. There are about a million cops in the US.

The real problem, is how the media handles a very rare situation, and then how the politicians who have something to gain by exploiting the bad act...to their benefit.
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Old 09-29-12, 06:48 PM   #105
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
How many YouTube videos are taken of cops who arrest and cite people on an average day...without incident or intruding on their legal rights?

Most cops aren't bad. Most people who are arrested and cited by cops aren't bad, either. There are about a million cops in the US.

The real problem, is how the media handles a very rare situation, and then how the politicians who have something to gain by exploiting the bad act...to their benefit.
Yeah but the stories that gain traction are the bad ones. So the cops out there being dicks are ruining it for all the good guys.
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Old 09-29-12, 07:24 PM   #106
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
How many YouTube videos are taken of cops who arrest and cite people on an average day...without incident or intruding on their legal rights?
In either situation, both citizens and cops should welcome video documentation of all interactions.
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Old 09-29-12, 08:22 PM   #107
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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In either situation, both citizens and cops should welcome video documentation of all interactions.
I do, and I've said as much before. Stories like this ( http://www.ktvb.com/video/raw/RAW-IN...171427221.html ) would have turned out a lot differently if cameras weren't rolling. They almost did in that case, until the video was released ( http://www.ktvb.com/home/RAW-VIDEO-O...171395861.html ). Then even the dog's owner admitted the officers were in the right.

That said, I'm not going to deal with a suspect with a camera in his hands. I don't care if he sets the camera down still running, or hands it to a friend to film, but I want his hands to be empty and where I can see them while I'm dealing with him.
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Old 09-29-12, 08:38 PM   #108
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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That said, I'm not going to deal with a suspect with a camera in his hands. I don't care if he sets the camera down still running, or hands it to a friend to film, but I want his hands to be empty and where I can see them while I'm dealing with him.
This makes sense but if the person refuses to put down the camera, what do you do then? Does the person you are dealing with legally have to put the camera down?

This of course assuming that they are cooperating with you in every way except the camera thing.
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Old 09-29-12, 09:19 PM   #109
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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This makes sense but if the person refuses to put down the camera, what do you do then? Does the person you are dealing with legally have to put the camera down?

This of course assuming that they are cooperating with you in every way except the camera thing.
We get a lot of leeway for our safety when dealing with suspects. If I'm dealing with a suspect that I've detained for reasonable suspicion, and I have articulable reason to merely believe they have an object on them that can be used as a weapon, I can search them to remove that object. If they're openly holding something that can be used as a weapon (and I feel more than confident that I can articulate why a hard plastic and glass object could function as a weapon, especially at night if it's got a mounted light on it as well, which can separately blind me or impair my night vision), then I can certainly remove that potential threat. Moreover, nearly every month I get bulletins from the state fusion center about guns and knives disguised to appear to be cameras, cell phones, beepers, iPods, laser pointers, hair brushes, belt buckles, etc... at this point, based on my training and experience, I'm not going to allow a criminal subject to aim anything at my head during an encounter, no matter what it appears to be. He's not a bystander, who I'm happy to have filming as long as they don't start to interfere; while he's detained, he's under my control. I'm going to give a lawful order (like "show me your hands"), and if that's not obeyed, then I'm going to arrest him for obstructing my duties.

In the situation PenguinJoe posted, that wasn't even a reasonable suspicion scenario. That officer outright had probable cause to arrest the kid for trespassing in the park after dark. He handled the situation very poorly, but if he really wanted the kid to stop filming, then he should have just told the kid he was under arrest for the trespassing and placed him in cuffs... no more filming. Same result, but done the right way. Instead, he got a bug up his ass because a kid was being a smart aleck, and he probably tossed his career away.
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Old 09-29-12, 11:50 PM   #110
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
We get a lot of leeway for our safety when dealing with suspects. If I'm dealing with a suspect that I've detained for reasonable suspicion, and I have articulable reason to merely believe they have an object on them that can be used as a weapon, I can search them to remove that object. If they're openly holding something that can be used as a weapon (and I feel more than confident that I can articulate why a hard plastic and glass object could function as a weapon, especially at night if it's got a mounted light on it as well, which can separately blind me or impair my night vision), then I can certainly remove that potential threat. Moreover, nearly every month I get bulletins from the state fusion center about guns and knives disguised to appear to be cameras, cell phones, beepers, iPods, laser pointers, hair brushes, belt buckles, etc... at this point, based on my training and experience, I'm not going to allow a criminal subject to aim anything at my head during an encounter, no matter what it appears to be. He's not a bystander, who I'm happy to have filming as long as they don't start to interfere; while he's detained, he's under my control. I'm going to give a lawful order (like "show me your hands"), and if that's not obeyed, then I'm going to arrest him for obstructing my duties.
This is some tricky shit. This basically gives you carte blanche to fuck with anyone because anything from a pair of chopsticks to an afro pick to a sandwich wrapped in tin foil can be perceived as being a dangerous weapon.

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Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
Instead, he got a bug up his ass because a kid was being a smart aleck, and he probably tossed his career away.
Question authority and you are a smart aleck? How typical

Reminds me of the time I got harassed by the NYPD for being in the park after dusk.
When I told them why they were not messing with the yuppie who was about 20 feet away from me walking his dog he told me not to be a smart ass.

After they saw my ID (spanish last name), the Irish officer decided to give me a lecture about how great the neighborhood used to be before "you people" moved in.
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Old 09-30-12, 12:02 AM   #111
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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This is some tricky shit. This basically gives you carte blanche to fuck with anyone because anything from a pair of chopsticks to an afro pick to a sandwich wrapped in tin foil can be perceived as being a dangerous weapon.
Nope. No, it doesn't. It doesn't even come into effect until I have the requisite legal standard (reasonable suspicion) to believe they're involved in criminal activity. It's not like I can just pick somebody off the street and demand they empty their hands. I made very clear that my statement only applied to suspects.

And beside that very limited application, it's some pretty weak sauce "fucking with" somebody to merely make sure somebody's not holding something in their hands they can hit me with.

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Question authority and you are a smart aleck? How typical
Question authority all you want. Be a smart aleck all you want too. Just don't be surprised when, if you're a smart aleck WHILE you happen to be breaking the law, you go to jail. -shrug-

Last edited by CaptainMarvel; 09-30-12 at 12:08 AM.
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Old 09-30-12, 11:05 AM   #112
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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We get a lot of leeway for our safety when dealing with suspects. If I'm dealing with a suspect that I've detained for reasonable suspicion, and I have articulable reason to merely believe they have an object on them that can be used as a weapon, I can search them to remove that object. If they're openly holding something that can be used as a weapon (and I feel more than confident that I can articulate why a hard plastic and glass object could function as a weapon, especially at night if it's got a mounted light on it as well, which can separately blind me or impair my night vision), then I can certainly remove that potential threat. Moreover, nearly every month I get bulletins from the state fusion center about guns and knives disguised to appear to be cameras, cell phones, beepers, iPods, laser pointers, hair brushes, belt buckles, etc... at this point, based on my training and experience, I'm not going to allow a criminal subject to aim anything at my head during an encounter, no matter what it appears to be. He's not a bystander, who I'm happy to have filming as long as they don't start to interfere; while he's detained, he's under my control. I'm going to give a lawful order (like "show me your hands"), and if that's not obeyed, then I'm going to arrest him for obstructing my duties.
Ahh yes, so that's how the bad officers will get around all the rulings that allow people to film the police. Anything could be a weapon, perhaps even a gun disguised as a human head. Or a dog. Could be a remote control assassination machine that goes by the name of fido, the wagging tail is the antenna. Shoots bullets out of its eyes and poops hand grenades.

Yes, I know that sounds ridiculous, and you say you won't allow suspects to aim anything at you, but are ok with bystanders doing it. How long do you really think before an officer or agency, armed with reams of reports from some state center pointing out how cameras or phones might be guns, says that in the name of officer safety, they have to disarm anyone in sight?
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Old 09-30-12, 12:51 PM   #113
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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Ahh yes, so that's how the bad officers will get around all the rulings that allow people to film the police. Anything could be a weapon, perhaps even a gun disguised as a human head. Or a dog. Could be a remote control assassination machine that goes by the name of fido, the wagging tail is the antenna. Shoots bullets out of its eyes and poops hand grenades.

Yes, I know that sounds ridiculous, and you say you won't allow suspects to aim anything at you, but are ok with bystanders doing it. How long do you really think before an officer or agency, armed with reams of reports from some state center pointing out how cameras or phones might be guns, says that in the name of officer safety, they have to disarm anyone in sight?
That's absurd. Our powers to frisk and remove weapons from a criminal subject stems from Terry and its progeny. In the 50 or so years since Terry, they've never been applied to individuals not already suspected of involvement with criminal activity (eg, crowds of bystanders). You're arguing against the potential for a slippery slope that, if it was going to exist, would have manifested by this point.

I'm sorry if you don't like it. That doesn't change anything though. I don't have a problem with recording, and I'm probably going to be recording too. If he wants to wear a lapel camera, I can certainly live with that. If he wants to have friends record from a safe distance (ie. outside of my reactionary gap), great. If he wants to set his camera on the ground still running, fine. But I'm not going to allow a subject to hold anything he can hit me with, whether it's a camera, or a bottle, or a baseball, or whatever, any more than I'm going to let them shine a flashlight in my face during the encounter. It doesn't matter to me if those items are completely innocuous on their own merits in a different context... what matters is whether they can be used as a weapon. If so, I'm probably going to remove it from his person during the encounter.

Sorry if you don't like it, but I'm going home uninjured at the end of the shift.
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Old 09-30-12, 01:22 PM   #114
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

I wasn't implying you, I think your posts over the years show you are reasonable in your actions with law enforcement stuff. It's the ones that already push the envelope, the officers that don't like uninvolved bystanders recording them interacting with other people. My point is you are saying you have bulletins showing cameras & phones can be weapons. How long before an officer decides that any camera in his vicinity could be a weapon and won't allow them anywhere near him?
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Old 09-30-12, 01:33 PM   #115
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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I wasn't implying you, I think your posts over the years show you are reasonable in your actions with law enforcement stuff. It's the ones that already push the envelope, the officers that don't like uninvolved bystanders recording them interacting with other people. My point is you are saying you have bulletins showing cameras & phones can be weapons. How long before an officer decides that any camera in his vicinity could be a weapon and won't allow them anywhere near him?
I'm 100% sure somebody might try it, but they'd get smacked down pretty quickly by the courts. Uninvolved persons can't be detained, and if they're not detained, Terry's frisk provisions simply don't apply.

Just for example, in certain areas where I work, crowds will always gather when you're dealing with a subject. I'm 99% sure that at least some of the people in those crowds are armed with actual guns (some legally via permit, some not), but that doesn't mean I can go through disarming them. The best I can do is give them a lawful order to stay back from my crime scene (even if the "scene" is just a traffic stop). They aren't suspects, so I can't apply the same measures to them. I can exert greater control on a person I've detained.

I have no doubt some officer will try to use the rationale you've suggested, but I don't think it would ever hold up. I certainly can't see it ever becoming widespread. The greater trend is toward more recordings, not fewer.
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Old 09-30-12, 01:45 PM   #116
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

But you don't need to frisk, because the cameras are going to be up and out in the open. And an officer is going to say "that could be a weapon, I need you to put that down and move away". When the person refuses, then they'll be arrested for refusing a lawful order or obstruction. The officer won't say it was because they were being recorded, they'll say they felt threatened by an object that could be taken as a weapon, and they'll produce the reams of paperwork & memos from the state fusion agency showing such items exist. And there will be some police chief on behalf of his people saying we need to do whatever we can to protect my officers, so I support the action this officer took. And some court will agree with them. Maybe not many, but I'm willing to bet there would be some.
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Old 09-30-12, 01:59 PM   #117
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

I'm not sure I'm making myself clear. When I say "frisk", under Terry, I'm referring to the removal of weapons (since that's the sole point of the frisking itself). Obviously, if they have a visible weapon, I don't need to actually frisk them to find it before I remove it. But Terry only applies to people involved in the crime.

To illustrate, in Alabama unlicensed open carry of firearms is NOT illegal. If I'm dealing with criminal subject A, I can remove anything from his person that can be either a conventional OR unconventional weapon. But if bystander B is standing 20 feet away watching us, with a gun visibly strapped to his hip, I can't go over there and disarm him. If I can't do that against somebody with an ACTUAL gun, I certainly can't use the rationale that he might have a gun disguised as a camera.
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Old 09-30-12, 02:08 PM   #118
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

But can you ask him to leave the area because his weapon is hindering your ability to question/detain/arrest subject A?
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Old 09-30-12, 02:27 PM   #119
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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But can you ask him to leave the area because his weapon is hindering your ability to question/detain/arrest subject A?
Hindering how? By watching? I'm assuming everybody in a crowd is armed (since I haven't searched them), so any crowd is going to distract me to some extent. That doesn't mean I can make them leave.

I can ask a bystander to do anything. He's not compelled to obey my requests. As for what I can make him do, I can order him to give me space and not crowd my scene. But we're talking moving back a matter of yards though, not making him leave altogether.

Either way, I'm going to try to get backup there to watch the crowd ASAP and make do in the meantime. I certainly can't go through the crowd of non-suspects removing actual weapons, much less anything that can conceivably be used as a weapon.
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Old 09-30-12, 02:28 PM   #120
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

How long until CaptainMarvel appears in one of these videos?
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Old 09-30-12, 02:56 PM   #121
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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How long before an officer decides that any camera in his vicinity could be a weapon and won't allow them anywhere near him?
How long? This has been happening for years now. All over America for years. Not just citizens, it has happened repeatedly with members of the press doing their job. News crews have been arrested by the police, like the incident this year in Chicago with cops telling the news crew "your First Amendment rights can be terminated."

Some states started to make filming the police illegal so they would have less evidence to cope with in police abuse cases. That pesky video made it hard for them to 'sell' the normal false accusations used to justify thuggish behavior by cops. That's part of how the issue wound up before the Supreme Court.

What happens, in your hypothetical that's been going on for years all around America, is the cellphones or cameras are sometimes smashed right there on the spot, other times they are confiscated and never returned, when they are returned most of the time the video has been erased. Often the people are detained or arrested. Charges about 'unruly behavior' or 'potential weapon' and horseshit are often made up by the cops to justify the arrest.

It's been a few weeks now since a NYTimes reporter taking pictures in NY, declaring himself as the press, was beaten and arrested by police. For a while it appeared he wouldn't get ~$20,000 in cameras in equipment he was using or his press credentials back. Some press groups sent in the power of lawyers and the police started to cave. After beating the hell out of him the police charged HIM with crimes. That's how 'the facts' are made to serve the state.

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Times Photographer Roughed Up by NYPD Just Wants His Stuff Back

By Joe Coscarelli

8/6/12 at 6:18 PM

Robert Stolarik, a photographer for the New York Times since 2000, has covered conflict zones, natural disasters, and protests for the paper, so he knows his way around a volatile situation. What was strange about his arrest over the weekend, in which Stolarik says he was beaten up by police and arrested without provocation, is that there was no warning. "I've been doing this a long time," he told Daily Intel. "There was no tension." One second he was photographing a street fight in the Bronx, and the next he was on the ground beneath six officers, suffering cuts and bruises to his arms, legs, and head.

After spending most of Saturday night in jail, charged with obstructing government administration and resisting arrest, Stolarik checked himself into the hospital on Sunday. "They said I have no broken bones or internal injuries," he told us Monday night. "That's a relief, because it feels like I have broken bones and internal injuries." More important, he still doesn't have his cameras.

Stolarik was on assignment with two Times journalists (reportedly covering the NYPD's controversial stop-and-frisk practices) when he happened upon an escalating scene. Naturally, he began shooting the altercation as police moved in to arrest a teenage girl. According to Stolarik, he was first approached by a female officer, who put her hand on his camera and told him to stop shooting. After he pointed out his media credentials and continued, Stolarik said, a second officer approached and "handled the camera more aggressively, pushed it into me." When he asked for the officers' names and badge numbers, he was "surrounded and taken down dragged, kicked, and stomped on."

The NYPD said in a statement that Stolarik "inadvertently" hit an officer with his camera and "violently resisted being handcuffed," although a video taken by a Times reporter reportedly shows Stolarik "face down on the sidewalk, beneath a huddle of about six officers."

"My camera hitting anybody is an untruth," Stolarik told Intel. "They just get to say whatever they feel like saying and then charging me with whatever they feel like charging me with to justify their actions. They were violent toward me, and they were violent toward the media."

"I always try to be reasonable," said Stolarik, who was hassled by an officer on camera while covering the Occupy Wall Street protests last fall. "But there's going to be a next generation [of journalists] to come up, and if we accept this type of behavior, what happens to that next group of people?"

"At the moment, we're not pursuing any legal action. The main goal is to have the charges dropped," said Stolarik, who is due in court on November 26. "They're not real. These things didn't happen. Make the charges go away and get me my equipment back."

He estimates that he's out roughly $20,000 in materials. "I'm a freelance journalist without those tools I can't work. It's a financial burden being out of work one day," he added. "But I'm 43 years old to be beaten up, the recovery time is longer."

Lawyers for the Times and the National Press Photographers Association, along with the Committee to Protect Journalists, have already taken up Stolarik's cause. "I trust that the department will do the right thing and at the very least immediately return Mr. Stolarik's equipment and credentials," said Mickey H. Osterreicher, general counsel for the NPPA, in a letter to Deputy Police Commissioner Paul Browne.

"I don't want to overplay it. I'm not bitching and moaning," said Stolarik. "But you just don't expect this. This is just violence."
That's just a single example of countless incidents. During the Occupy stuff journalists and citizens were being beaten and arrested all around America trying to document police brutality against the protestors. People have been arrested for filming the police from their own homes, front porches, or yards. Completely uninvolved in anything the cops were doing. The police come in their yard to get at them, of course they say the people filming are a 'threat' or some horseshit, and harass, detain, or arrest them.

This is the power of control of information in America. Outrageous things the police do go on around America for years, things that would shock the majority if CNN or the like actually went after it and pushed it daily, are made to disappear by not being covered and the majority of the citizens have no idea it's occurring. And here we have people discussing it as if it's a theoretical possibility, and why it couldn't happen.

People have been beaten up and arrested for filming the police using excessive force and brutality or even killing other citizens. For years. Not something like dozens of cases, it's been common for years. It never gets covered in the media.
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Old 09-30-12, 03:16 PM   #122
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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Originally Posted by Dave99 View Post
But you don't need to frisk, because the cameras are going to be up and out in the open. And an officer is going to say "that could be a weapon, I need you to put that down and move away". When the person refuses, then they'll be arrested for refusing a lawful order or obstruction. The officer won't say it was because they were being recorded, they'll say they felt threatened by an object that could be taken as a weapon, and they'll produce the reams of paperwork & memos from the state fusion agency showing such items exist. And there will be some police chief on behalf of his people saying we need to do whatever we can to protect my officers, so I support the action this officer took. And some court will agree with them. Maybe not many, but I'm willing to bet there would be some.
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I'm assuming everybody in a crowd is armed (since I haven't searched them), so any crowd is going to distract me to some extent. That doesn't mean I can make them leave.

I can ask a bystander to do anything. He's not compelled to obey my requests. As for what I can make him do, I can order him to give me space and not crowd my scene. But we're talking moving back a matter of yards though, not making him leave altogether.

Either way, I'm going to try to get backup there to watch the crowd ASAP and make do in the meantime. I certainly can't go through the crowd of non-suspects removing actual weapons, much less anything that can conceivably be used as a weapon.
I'm split on this because I agree with CaptainMarvel because as an officer he is exposed and could be in danger at any time. He has every right to protect himself and insure that he is not hurt or killed.

But on the other hand as Dave99 pointed out an officer (Not you specifically CaptainMarvel) could claim to feel threatened by anything and make an arrest. If there isn't any evidence of what actually takes place it comes down to the word of the officer and the citizen.
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Old 09-30-12, 03:29 PM   #123
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
That's just a single example of countless incidents. During the Occupy stuff journalists and citizens were being beaten and arrested all around America trying to document police brutality against the protestors. People have been arrested for filming the police from their own homes, front porches, or yards. Completely uninvolved in anything the cops were doing. The police come in their yard to get at them, of course they say the people filming are a 'threat' or some horseshit, and harass, detain, or arrest them.

This is the power of control of information in America. Outrageous things the police do go on around America for years, things that would shock the majority if CNN or the like actually went after it and pushed it daily, are made to disappear by not being covered and the majority of the citizens have no idea it's occurring. And here we have people discussing it as if it's a theoretical possibility, and why it couldn't happen.

People have been beaten up and arrested for filming the police using excessive force and brutality or even killing other citizens. For years. Not something like dozens of cases, it's been common for years. It never gets covered in the media.
I seem to remember a video of a lady filming (from her front yard?) some sort of traffic violation. She's not really interfering but the officers get all butt hurt and arrest her.
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Old 09-30-12, 03:46 PM   #124
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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Originally Posted by RagingBull80 View Post
I seem to remember a video of a lady filming (from her front yard?) some sort of traffic violation. She's not really interfering but the officers get all butt hurt and arrest her.
Yep. There was a thread here: http://forum.dvdtalk.com/other-talk/...ront-yard.html (Incidentally, here was my evaluation of that incident, if you care: http://forum.dvdtalk.com/10830596-post58.html ).

There was some actual pretty good discussion about taping, both by the police and by bystanders.

Bear in mind that at least one federal court (1st Circuit) has since come out and said that bystanders have a right to videotape arrests, so we're in a different legal world from when that incident occurred.
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Old 09-30-12, 05:01 PM   #125
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
Yep. There was a thread here: http://forum.dvdtalk.com/other-talk/...ront-yard.html (Incidentally, here was my evaluation of that incident, if you care: http://forum.dvdtalk.com/10830596-post58.html ).

There was some actual pretty good discussion about taping, both by the police and by bystanders.

Bear in mind that at least one federal court (1st Circuit) has since come out and said that bystanders have a right to videotape arrests, so we're in a different legal world from when that incident occurred.
Thanks Cap. I remember seeing that the first time around. I have to agree with what you had to say at the time.

I had forgotten about the petty fucking move the cops pulled with that twelve inches from the curb bullshit.
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