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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 03-09-11, 02:09 PM   #1
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One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

Previous thread - One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part VIII

Let's keep the party rolling! Or something like that.
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Old 03-09-11, 02:45 PM   #2
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

My viewpoints:

Open political borders, making it very easy to legally come here.
Strong physical borders, making it very difficult to illegally come here.

Decriminalize, to eliminate a large % of illegal crossings.
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Old 03-09-11, 03:17 PM   #3
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

My viewpoint:

Strong physical borders: 30 foot high concrete wall with razor wire on the top, 100 yards away another 30 foot high concrete wall with razor wire on the top. You can add guard towers that are randomly housed with guards that do not fire warning shots. Between the two walls, landmines.

Immigration policy: If they can make it over the wall past the landmines avoiding getting shot and over the other wall they can stay.
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Old 03-09-11, 03:27 PM   #4
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemdog View Post
Strong physical borders: 30 foot high concrete wall with razor wire on the top, 100 yards away another 30 foot high concrete wall with razor wire on the top. You can add guard towers that are randomly housed with guards that do not fire warning shots. Between the two walls, landmines.
Wonderful, another ineffectual "bleeding heart" solution. A true patriot would demand no less than three walls. And a moat!
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Old 03-09-11, 03:32 PM   #5
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

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Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
Wonderful, another ineffectual "bleeding heart" solution. A true patriot would demand no less than three walls. And a moat!
I was thinking guard dogs instead of a moat, but I didn't think it would be cost effective.
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Old 03-09-11, 04:41 PM   #6
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

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Originally Posted by Lemdog View Post
Strong physical borders: 30 foot high concrete wall with razor wire on the top, 100 yards away another 30 foot high concrete wall with razor wire on the top. You can add guard towers that are randomly housed with guards that do not fire warning shots. Between the two walls, landmines.
And as an added bonus, this will be equally useful for keeping us in.
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Old 03-09-11, 05:20 PM   #7
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

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Originally Posted by The Bus View Post
My viewpoints:

Open political borders, making it very easy to legally come here.
Strong physical borders, making it very difficult to illegally come here.
That's pretty much my take, as well. A democratic society can have a reasonable debate about whether we want a more liberal or more restrictive policy for legal immigration, and people can make their cases---but at the end of the day, when the debate is done, it has to be a LAW that's ENFORCED.
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Old 03-09-11, 06:52 PM   #8
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

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Originally Posted by The Bus View Post
My viewpoints:

Open political borders, making it very easy to legally come here.
Strong physical borders, making it very difficult to illegally come here.
+1

Not in favor of the decriminalization though; let more of the people we want in, but hammer the ones we've told to stay out who still come in.
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Old 03-09-11, 07:10 PM   #9
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

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Originally Posted by The Bus View Post
My viewpoints:

Open political borders, making it very easy to legally come here.
Strong physical borders, making it very difficult to illegally come here.

Decriminalize, to eliminate a large % of illegal crossings.
What would decriminiiizing do? It would just make it legal to cross, right, how will that mitigate anything and force people to use whatever legal way we come up with? And what about the people who already crossed illegally?

At this point, I don't think we'll ever have strong physical borders. We'll get a bunch of promises around election time, though.

For me it's
1. Get some will to enforce current laws. If you don't enforce current laws, I don't care what you do to reform immigration, why play by any rules when nobody enforces them anyway. And by this I don't mean necessarily a bunch of raids, but making it hard on businesses who knowingly and persistently hire illegal immigrant workers. Take away the economic incentive for people to come here illegally.

2. Reform immigration law to make it easier to come here. This is because I always hear that we need these people to work, but we also need a way to keep track of them, and not all should be on a path to citizenship. Of course, like I said before if nobody's going to enforce the laws anyway, this won't do anything.

3. In step with number 2 but after number 1 is verified, I would begrudgingly give amnesty to the otherwise law-abiding illegal immigrants that are here. I don't like the whole "cutting-in-line" or "rewarding-those-who-broke-the-law" parts of it, but i do realize that we cannot deport every single illegal immigrant, at this point it's gotten so huge that it's just not feasible. This would be a path to citizenship, but not a shortcut to citizenship, and no sponsoring family members. But again, we need something to ensure that another wave of illegal immigrants won't come in expecting amnesty with overwhelming numbers.

Most proponents of illegal immigration want 2 and 3 with a vague promise of 1, and I don't see how that works. I don't even see anyone in the government working on 2.
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Old 03-10-11, 01:56 AM   #10
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

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Originally Posted by Lemdog View Post
My viewpoint:

Strong physical borders: 30 foot high concrete wall with razor wire on the top, 100 yards away another 30 foot high concrete wall with razor wire on the top. You can add guard towers that are randomly housed with guards that do not fire warning shots. Between the two walls, landmines.
I'm pretty sure the East Germans didn't even have a border like that, and their border was not only shorter, it didn't have to account for billions of dollars worth of trade goods crossing back and forth.
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Old 03-10-11, 05:12 AM   #11
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

So, we've got a few types of illegal immigration:

1. illegal immigration by people who, border-crossing aside, are not criminals
2. illegal immigration by people who are criminals, and don't want the US to know they're coming in

By making legal immigration simple (not years, weeks... for everyone) you eliminate most of group 1.
By building a wall, you reduce some of 2. (Using falsified documents to cross will become the way to cross, as is happening now).

I would imagine that at this point, the largest share of group 2 are drug traffickers. Decriminalize drugs, so it's not contraband that needs to cross illegally.

But that second part is optional.
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Old 03-10-11, 08:17 AM   #12
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

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Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
I'm pretty sure the East Germans didn't even have a border like that, and their border was not only shorter, it didn't have to account for billions of dollars worth of trade goods crossing back and forth.
I see you took my post seriously.
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Old 03-10-11, 08:47 AM   #13
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemdog View Post
I see you took my post seriously.
Or maybe I was responding to your sarcastic post by making an ironic post that mocked the situation by pretending to take your post seriously ....
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Old 03-10-11, 08:58 AM   #14
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

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Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
Or maybe I was responding to your sarcastic post by making an ironic post that mocked the situation by pretending to take your post seriously ....
Nope, I sticking with you taking my post seriously.
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Old 03-10-11, 09:11 AM   #15
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bus View Post
My viewpoints:

Open political borders, making it very easy to legally come here.
Strong physical borders, making it very difficult to illegally come here.

Decriminalize, to eliminate a large % of illegal crossings.
That pretty much sums up my view. Though I don't know that we have would have the ability to root out the people we don't want with only a few week long waiting period.
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Old 03-10-11, 09:28 AM   #16
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

I stand by my view that we need an exchange program where we send our lazy-ass white-trash to Mexico in exchange for letting all the Hispanics who want to come into the USA.
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Old 03-10-11, 12:28 PM   #17
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bus View Post
So, we've got a few types of illegal immigration:

1. illegal immigration by people who, border-crossing aside, are not criminals
2. illegal immigration by people who are criminals, and don't want the US to know they're coming in

By making legal immigration simple (not years, weeks... for everyone) you eliminate most of group 1.
What are the current reasons for making legal immigration take weeks instead of years..."for everyone?"
Currently, atleast in California, we have problems with classroom size.

I would guess that because so many people want to get into the US because of the economic opportunities (which are diminishing) that we need to limit the # we allow in. For example, if we have this constant influx, I would imagine that would have an effect on social services.

Look at what's happening with Social Security. They didn't take into account the baby boomers and now we have to wonder of SS will be around for the rest of us.


Quote:
By building a wall, you reduce some of 2. (Using falsified documents to cross will become the way to cross, as is happening now).

I would imagine that at this point, the largest share of group 2 are drug traffickers. Decriminalize drugs, so it's not contraband that needs to cross illegally.

But that second part is optional.
I'm beginning to the think that legalization might be a viable option considering how much influence and power the drug cartels have in Mexico. However, even if legalization does take place, would the cartels just dissipate? Considering that the cartels seem much more bold and threatning to government than the American mafia, I can't imagine that they wouldn't find another illegal revenue to replace drugs, and still be corrupting Mexican politics.

You'd think in the mean time, that American and Mexican entertainment would atleast try to downplay, or choose not to exploit/promote drug use but unfortunately no one feels that kind of responsibility.

We have American films and music that glorifies drug use, and even when it's a supposed morality tale the villain usually comes off like an anti-hero, Scarface for example.

On Telemundo now there is a show called LA REINA DEL SUR that stars Kate Del Castillo as a rising drug lord in Mexico.
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Old 03-10-11, 12:30 PM   #18
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

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Originally Posted by fujishig View Post

For me it's
1. Get some will to enforce current laws. If you don't enforce current laws, I don't care what you do to reform immigration, why play by any rules when nobody enforces them anyway. And by this I don't mean necessarily a bunch of raids, but making it hard on businesses who knowingly and persistently hire illegal immigrant workers. Take away the economic incentive for people to come here illegally.

2. Reform immigration law to make it easier to come here. This is because I always hear that we need these people to work, but we also need a way to keep track of them, and not all should be on a path to citizenship. Of course, like I said before if nobody's going to enforce the laws anyway, this won't do anything.

3. In step with number 2 but after number 1 is verified, I would begrudgingly give amnesty to the otherwise law-abiding illegal immigrants that are here. I don't like the whole "cutting-in-line" or "rewarding-those-who-broke-the-law" parts of it, but i do realize that we cannot deport every single illegal immigrant, at this point it's gotten so huge that it's just not feasible. This would be a path to citizenship, but not a shortcut to citizenship, and no sponsoring family members. But again, we need something to ensure that another wave of illegal immigrants won't come in expecting amnesty with overwhelming numbers.

Most proponents of illegal immigration want 2 and 3 with a vague promise of 1, and I don't see how that works. I don't even see anyone in the government working on 2.
We already do all of these things, or have done all these things, and the problems only get worse.

Which goes to show that illegal immigration is just another manufactured problem, just like the drug war, or gay marriage threatening the foundation of society, or any other social issue.
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Old 03-10-11, 01:46 PM   #19
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

I'm not sure you need either amnesty OR police rounding people up and deporting them. If the country were really serious, you could just focus the resources on tracking and severly financially punishing any employers that had illegals working for them. If employers know that hiring illegals may be a financial existential threat for them, they will stop doing it. You wouldn't have to do anything to the individual illegals---if you make it that difficult for them to gain employment, most would just go back to their countries of origin out of financial necessity, IMO.
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Old 03-10-11, 06:39 PM   #20
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

I'm cool with the walls, razor wire, moats, guards....good call!
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Old 03-10-11, 07:35 PM   #21
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

Quote:
Originally Posted by brayzie View Post
Look at what's happening with Social Security. They didn't take into account the baby boomers and now we have to wonder of SS will be around for the rest of us.
That bears approximately zero resemblance to the reality of the situation.
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Old 03-10-11, 09:17 PM   #22
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

I shouldn't have said that with certainty but I was under the impression that the unexpected surge in babies being born after WWII, and the boomers retiring roughly at the same time put a significant burden on SS.

This wasn't true?
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Old 03-10-11, 10:39 PM   #23
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
Wonderful, another ineffectual "bleeding heart" solution. A true patriot would demand no less than three walls. And a moat!
And while we are at it lets put genetically altered super crocs and piranha in that moat.....
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Old 03-10-11, 11:39 PM   #24
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

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Originally Posted by brayzie View Post
I shouldn't have said that with certainty but I was under the impression that the unexpected surge in babies being born after WWII, and the boomers retiring roughly at the same time put a significant burden on SS.

This wasn't true?
The surge in babies born after World War II isn't particularly unexpected -- we've actually known about it since roughly 1945. To that end, we reformed Social Security in 1983 to account for it. Social Security will remain solvent until some time in the 2040s or 2050s, depending on which projection you believe. Thereafter, it will be able to pay roughly 75% of its obligations, assuming tax rates and benefit levels remain the same. That has to do with the expected longer lifespan of post-Boomer generations, not anything about the Boomers themselves.
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Old 03-11-11, 01:07 AM   #25
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Re: One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IX

Thanks for explaining.
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