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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

View Poll Results: What % of self-identified Republicans are aware of Obamacare's conservative roots?
0 to 25% 42 77.78%
26 to 50% 2 3.70%
51 to 75% 0 0%
76 to 100% 10 18.52%
Voters: 54. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-21-11, 05:15 PM   #126
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

Just got the letter... my health insurance is going up 16.8% as of July 1.

At what point does Obamacare start to save me money again? Would my premiums have actually gone up 20% without it? Maybe 120%? The world will never know...
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Old 04-21-11, 05:29 PM   #127
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
Just got the letter... my health insurance is going up 16.8% as of July 1.

At what point does Obamacare start to save me money again? Would my premiums have actually gone up 20% without it? Maybe 120%? The world will never know...
Without the Healtcare law, you would be dead by now. Quit bitching.
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Old 04-21-11, 06:10 PM   #128
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

Well, call me flabbergasted.

I just called the hospital to pay off our medical bills (wife had a baby, which added up to a lot) and they knocked 50% off what we owed. I didn't even ask them to... didn't say a thing. They just looked at our balance and said "Oh my... hold on while I check on something."

5 minutes later, new balance.

Hospitals good. Insurance companies bad.
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Old 04-21-11, 06:24 PM   #129
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
Just got the letter... my health insurance is going up 16.8% as of July 1.

At what point does Obamacare start to save me money again? Would my premiums have actually gone up 20% without it? Maybe 120%? The world will never know...
I got two increases last year. From $990 per month to $1450 now. That's only 46%. I can't wait until all the previously uninsurable people get covered!
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Old 04-21-11, 07:06 PM   #130
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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Originally Posted by X View Post
I got two increases last year. From $990 per month to $1450 now. That's only 46%. I can't wait until all the previously uninsurable people get covered!
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Old 04-21-11, 10:10 PM   #131
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
First, I hope your daughter is doing OK.

But how is this "the system?" Sounds like its your insurance company and worse, your employer's choice of insurance providers.
My employer offers 4-5 different choices. So certainly no my employers fault. Could be my fault for the the one I picked I suppose.

"The system" is even willing to pay cash we found it all but impossible to get into see a Dr. once her Dr. was no longer available due to not taking our insurance. I suppose we could have gone back to him and paid cash, but that would have only been a temp fix.

What I don't get is by going to the ER that was a preferred hospital for my insurance, the hospital still moved her. Then since the ER checked her in they "found" a Dr. that would see her and because he was now working thru the hospital would be covered by insurance. And, as it turns out, his practice takes our insurance. I don't get why we couldn't "find" him without going to the hospital.

And I didn't get the strict age thing. Some Dr's that specialize in this only see kids and some only adults and won't budge on that...agghhh

In any case, I suppose she would have ended up there regardless. Not only did they check her in, but have kept her. Will likely be a 5-6 day stay. So I guess a more serious than just adjusting her meds. And they think it is something slightly different than originally thought. Which may have been why even when she was doing good she wasn't a 100%.
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Old 04-21-11, 10:15 PM   #132
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
Well, call me flabbergasted.

I just called the hospital to pay off our medical bills (wife had a baby, which added up to a lot) and they knocked 50% off what we owed. I didn't even ask them to... didn't say a thing. They just looked at our balance and said "Oh my... hold on while I check on something."

5 minutes later, new balance.

Hospitals good. Insurance companies bad.
Its an interesting concept.

Please blame the availability of "low" cost flood insurance for why people build multi-million dollar houses on the beach only to get wrecked by a hurricane every couple year.

More to your point, a contractor almost always charges more when they know home insurance is paying for it. Often it is the first question they ask.
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Old 04-21-11, 10:35 PM   #133
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Its an interesting concept.

Please blame the availability of "low" cost flood insurance for why people build multi-million dollar houses on the beach only to get wrecked by a hurricane every couple year.

More to your point, a contractor almost always charges more when they know home insurance is paying for it. Often it is the first question they ask.
What do you want to bet that any reform will not change this?
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Old 04-22-11, 10:55 AM   #134
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

The Health Care Law is so great, it is saving the environment too. What a great thing it is.

http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch...s-on-earth-day

Quote:
On Earth Day, Obama administration touts healthcare law's green benefits
By Julian Pecquet - 04/22/11 08:40 AM ET

The new healthcare law is helping clean up the U.S. environment and improve public health, Health and Human Services (HHS) Secretary Kathleen Sebelius said in a statement Friday.

"The health of the American people is directly linked to a healthy environment," Sebelius said in a statement released to mark the 41st anniversary of Earth Day. "At HHS we are committed to doing whatever is necessary to protect the health of all Americans, and we recognize that ensuring a clean and healthy environment is a fundamental part of that effort."

Sebelius said funding in the reform law is helping achieve those goals. For example, the law allowed the Boriken Health Center, a neighborhood primary care center in Harlem, N.Y., to get $12 million for renovations and "significantly reduce the levels of chemicals and harmful materials normally used in construction."

"Ensuring that patients across the country have access to hazard-free care facilities, which are vital to the healing process, and that all Americans face fewer environmental risk factors in their day-to-day lives are efforts that tie directly into our mission here at HHS," Sebelius said.

Environmental hazards are responsible for as much as a quarter of the total burden of disease worldwide, according to the World Health Organization, and more than one-third of the burden among children.

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Old 04-22-11, 11:15 AM   #135
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
My employer offers 4-5 different choices. So certainly no my employers fault. Could be my fault for the the one I picked I suppose.

"The system" is even willing to pay cash we found it all but impossible to get into see a Dr. once her Dr. was no longer available due to not taking our insurance. I suppose we could have gone back to him and paid cash, but that would have only been a temp fix.

What I don't get is by going to the ER that was a preferred hospital for my insurance, the hospital still moved her. Then since the ER checked her in they "found" a Dr. that would see her and because he was now working thru the hospital would be covered by insurance. And, as it turns out, his practice takes our insurance. I don't get why we couldn't "find" him without going to the hospital.

And I didn't get the strict age thing. Some Dr's that specialize in this only see kids and some only adults and won't budge on that...agghhh

In any case, I suppose she would have ended up there regardless. Not only did they check her in, but have kept her. Will likely be a 5-6 day stay. So I guess a more serious than just adjusting her meds. And they think it is something slightly different than originally thought. Which may have been why even when she was doing good she wasn't a 100%.
i think it's billing rules and licensing. if you're licensed as a pediatrician you probably can't bill insurance companies for seeing adults. few weeks ago i had strep and i told my wife i was going to ask our pediatrician for a prescription when i took our son in. she said he will never do it since he can't bill for it.

my wife used to work for an insurance company and used to call people and tell them they can't bill for services because their medical license is in a totally different area of medicine.
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Old 04-24-11, 08:32 PM   #136
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post
i think it's billing rules and licensing. if you're licensed as a pediatrician you probably can't bill insurance companies for seeing adults. few weeks ago i had strep and i told my wife i was going to ask our pediatrician for a prescription when i took our son in. she said he will never do it since he can't bill for it.

my wife used to work for an insurance company and used to call people and tell them they can't bill for services because their medical license is in a totally different area of medicine.
Well then it goes back to me saying it is the system. When the only way my daughter can get helped even tho we have insurance is to go to the ER, something is wrong.

Now, maybe we just slipped thru the system. I've been around enough to know that any "system" is designed to work for 80%-85% of the situations. But no single system can work in every individual situation.

And she may have ended up in the hospital anyway. She is still there. So it might not have made a difference after all.
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Old 07-13-11, 11:20 AM   #137
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

Interesting article about the possible lack of veracity to Obama's sob story about his mother's "lack" of insurance...

Quote:
Fresh doubt cast on Obama's health care story

During the 2008 presidential campaign, Barack Obama often discussed his mother's struggle with cancer. Ann Dunham spent the months before her death in 1995, Obama said, fighting with insurance companies that sought to deny her the coverage she needed to pay for treatment.
"I remember in the last month of her life, she wasn't thinking about how to get well, she wasn't thinking about coming to terms with her own mortality, she was thinking about whether or not insurance was going to cover the medical bills and whether our family would be bankrupt as a consequence," Obama said in September 2007.

"She was in her hospital room looking at insurance forms because the insurance company said that maybe she had a pre-existing condition and maybe they wouldn't have to reimburse her for her medical bills," Obama added in January 2008.

"The insurance companies were saying, 'Maybe there's a pre-existing condition and we don't have to pay your medical bills,' " Obama said in a debate with Republican opponent Sen. John McCain in October 2008.

It was a simple and powerful story, one Obama would tell many more times as president during the national health care debate. But now we're learning the real story of Ann Dunham's health coverage is not quite what her son made it out to be.

The news is in "A Singular Woman: The Untold Story of Barack Obama's Mother," a generally admiring new biography written by former New York Times reporter Janny Scott. According to the book, Ann Dunham, an anthropologist who spent most of her working life in Indonesia, moved from Jakarta to New York in 1992 to work for a nonprofit called Women's World Banking, which encouraged micro-lending in Third World countries. Unhappy in New York, in 1994 Dunham took a job with an American company called Development Alternatives, which had a contract with the Indonesian State Ministry for the Role of Women. Dunham returned to Jakarta to work, and Scott reports the job provided Dunham with health insurance, a housing allowance, and a car.

At the time she took the job, Dunham was increasingly worried about her health; she was suffering from intense abdominal pains. In November 1994, Dunham went to an Indonesian doctor who diagnosed appendicitis. As Dunham debated whether to leave the country for surgery, she called her boss at Development Alternatives. "You've got health insurance, that's taken care of," the boss told her. "We can cover the airfare."

Dunham decided to stay in Jakarta, where she underwent an appendectomy. But the pain did not go away, and Dunham feared, correctly, that she was terribly ill. In January 1995 she left Indonesia to go home to Honolulu, where she was diagnosed with advanced uterine and ovarian cancer. She began a regime of surgery and chemotherapy.

That is the time during which Obama says his mother battled insurance companies to cover her illness. But Scott, who had access to Dunham's correspondence from the time, reveals that Dunham unquestionably had health coverage. "Ann's compensation for her job in Jakarta had included health insurance, which covered most of the costs of her medical treatment," Scott writes. "Once she was back in Hawaii, the hospital billed her insurance company directly, leaving Ann to pay only the deductible and any uncovered expenses, which, she said, came to several hundred dollars a month."

Scott writes that Dunham, who wanted to be compensated for those costs as well as for her living expenses, "filed a separate claim under her employer's disability insurance policy." It was that claim, with the insurance company CIGNA, that was denied in August 1995 because, CIGNA investigators said, Dunham's condition was known before she was covered by the policy.

Dunham protested the decision and, Scott writes, "informed CIGNA that she was turning over the case to 'my son and attorney, Barack Obama.' " CIGNA did not budge.

In September 1995, Dunham traveled to New York for an evaluation at the renowned Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center. Returning to Hawaii, she began a new course of treatment. She died in November.

A dozen years later, her son turned her ordeal into a campaign pitch for national health care. But the story Obama told, Scott writes, was "abbreviated" -- the abbreviation was to leave out the fact that Ann Dunham had health insurance that paid for her treatment. "Though he often suggested that she was denied health coverage because of a pre-existing condition," Scott writes, "it appears from her correspondence that she was only denied disability coverage."

That's a different story altogether. One the president never told.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/politi...#ixzz1S0EmZwdp
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Old 07-13-11, 11:27 AM   #138
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

Quote:
Scott writes that Dunham, who wanted to be compensated for those costs as well as for her living expenses, "filed a separate claim under her employer's disability insurance policy." It was that claim, with the insurance company CIGNA, that was denied in August 1995 because, CIGNA investigators said, Dunham's condition was known before she was covered by the policy.
So does this mean we get to look forward to when Obamacare is expanded to cover living expenses?
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Old 07-13-11, 11:42 AM   #139
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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So does this mean we get to look forward to when Obamacare is expanded to cover living expenses?
That would be the natural progression, you can't have people not able to pay their normal expenses just because the healthcare system failed them. So expand the scope of SSDI.
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Old 07-14-11, 11:27 AM   #140
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

And the White House does not dispute the story, it's just that it happened so very long ago, who could ever remember something accurately so far back?

Quote:
Book Challenges Obama on Mother’s Deathbed Fight

By KEVIN SACK
Published: July 13, 2011

The White House on Wednesday declined to challenge an account in a new book that suggests that President Obama, in his campaign to overhaul American health care, mischaracterized a central anecdote about his mother’s deathbed dispute with her insurance company.

During his presidential campaign and subsequent battle over a health care law, Mr. Obama quieted crowds with the story of his mother’s fight with her insurer over whether her cancer was a pre-existing condition that disqualified her from coverage.

In offering the story as an argument for ending pre-existing condition exclusions by health insurers, the president left the clear impression that his mother’s fight was over health benefits for medical expenses.

But in “A Singular Woman: The Untold Story of Barack Obama’s Mother,” author Janny Scott quotes from correspondence from the president’s mother to assert that the 1995 dispute concerned a Cigna disability insurance policy and that her actual health insurer had apparently reimbursed most of her medical expenses without argument.

Ms. Scott took a leave from her job as a reporter for The New York Times to write the book and has not returned to the staff.

On Wednesday, in response to repeated requests for comment that The Times first made in mid-June, shortly after the book’s release, a White House spokesman chose not to dispute either Ms. Scott’s account or Mr. Obama’s memory, while arguing that Mr. Obama’s broader point remained salient.

“We have not reviewed the letters or other material on which the author bases her account,” said Nicholas Papas, the spokesman. “The president has told this story based on his recollection of events that took place more than 15 years ago.”
[Whoa, a whole 15 years! I guess there's a statute of limitations on the truth that I never heard about.]

In her book, published in May by Riverhead Books, Ms. Scott writes that Mr. Obama’s mother, Ann Dunham, had an employer-provided health insurance policy that paid her hospital bills directly, leaving her “to pay only the deductible and any uncovered expenses, which, she said, came to several hundred dollars a month.”

Mr. Papas suggested that even if Ms. Scott was correct, Mr. Obama had not mischaracterized the facts because his mother needed her disability insurance payments to cover unreimbursed medical costs.

“As Ms. Scott’s account makes clear, the president’s mother incurred several hundred dollars in monthly uncovered medical expenses that she was relying on insurance to pay,” Mr. Papas said. “She first could not get a response from the insurance company, then was refused coverage. This personal history of the president’s speaks powerfully to the impact of pre-existing condition limits on insurance protection from health care costs.”

Disability insurance, which primarily replaces wages lost to illness, was never at issue in the legislative debate over the Affordable Care Act.

Ms. Scott said in an interview that her reporting relied on copies of letters from Ms. Dunham to Cigna that were made available by friends.

The book concludes that although Mr. Obama often suggested that Ms. Dunham “was denied health coverage because of a pre-existing condition, it appears from her correspondence that she was only denied disability coverage.” Ms. Dunham, an anthropologist who worked on development projects in Indonesia, died in 1995, less than a year after her diagnosis.

During the 2008 campaign, Mr. Obama used several rhetorical formulations to relate the anecdote, stressing, in his words, that “this issue is personal for me.”

In his second debate with Senator John McCain of Arizona, in October 2008, he said: “For my mother to die of cancer at the age of 53 and have to spend the last months of her life in the hospital room arguing with insurance companies because they’re saying that this may be a pre-existing condition and they don’t have to pay her treatment, there’s something fundamentally wrong about that.”

He put it similarly as president in a town-hall-style meeting in Portsmouth, N.H., in August 2009. “I will never forget my own mother, as she fought cancer in her final months, having to worry about whether her insurance would refuse to pay for her treatment,” Mr. Obama said.

The health care act, which Mr. Obama signed in March 2010, outlawed pre-existing condition exclusions for children under 19 starting last September. The ban extends to adults in 2014.

Robert J. Blendon, a professor of health policy and political analysis at Harvard, said that if an alternate narrative about Ms. Dunham’s dispute had been discovered during the 2008 campaign “people would have considered it a significant error.” He added: “I just took for granted that it was a pre-existing condition health insurance issue.”

According to Ms. Scott’s book, Ms. Dunham’s problem with Cigna started after she left Jakarta, Indonesia, where she had recently taken a consulting job with an American firm, and returned to Honolulu for treatment of abdominal pain that had been diagnosed as appendicitis. After being told she had uterine and ovarian cancer, she underwent a hysterectomy in February 1995 and then six months of chemotherapy, according to the book.

The Cigna disability policy, according to Ms. Scott, allowed the company to deny a claim if a patient had seen a doctor about the condition that caused the disability in the three months before employment. During that period, Ms. Dunham visited a New York gynecologist. When Cigna obtained the doctor’s notes, it learned that she had formed a working hypothesis that Ms. Dunham might have uterine cancer, Ms. Scott wrote.

The doctor ordered up a series of tests, and Ms. Dunham submitted to most of them. “None of these tests indicated that I had cancer,” Ms. Dunham wrote to Cigna, according to the book.

After several months, Cigna denied the claim. Ms. Dunham then requested a review, writing to Cigna that she had turned the case over to “my son and attorney, Barack Obama,” Ms. Scott wrote.

Ms. Scott said in the interview that she did not turn up documents to suggest that Ms. Dunham had a similar dispute with her health insurer, which she did not name. She said she could not determine from the documents she viewed whether Mr. Obama, then a lawyer in Chicago, had in fact petitioned Cigna on his mother’s behalf.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/14/us.../14mother.html
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Old 08-12-11, 01:53 PM   #141
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

The 11th Circuit has ruled the individual mandate unconstitutional under the commerce clause. We now have a circuit split on the issue, making SCt review all the more likely. However, they determined they could sever it from the rest.

Quote:
Further, the individual mandate exceeds Congress’s enumerated commerce power and is unconstitutional. This economic mandate represents a wholly novel and potentially unbounded assertion of congressional authority: the ability to compel Americans to purchase an expensive health insurance product they have elected not to buy, and to make them re-purchase that insurance product every month for their entire lives. We have not found any generally applicable, judicially enforceable limiting principle that would permit us to uphold the mandate without obliterating the boundaries inherent in the system of enumerated congressional powers. “Uniqueness” is not a constitutional principle in any antecedent Supreme Court decision. The individual mandate also finds no refuge in the aggregation
doctrine, for decisions to abstain from the purchase of a product or service,whatever their cumulative effect, lack a sufficient nexus to commerce.
It was a 2-1 ruling....a Bush appointee and Clinton appointee in the majority.

Here's the decision. It's only 304 pages.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/62177323/F...Services-et-al
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Old 08-12-11, 05:48 PM   #142
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

Good news. I still can't see how any justice believes it would be constitutional. I don't understand how it is legally any different than requiring everyone to buy shampoo.

And the idea of severing it from the rest doesn't bother me much. From what I understand, it is sufficiently entangled and necessary to the plan as written that it would effectively be dead. The only real solution would be to try to rewrite it or scrap it.
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Old 08-12-11, 05:48 PM   #143
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

And I don't think there are the votes to rewrite it, even though we all know that the Kennedy seat was not about healthcare.

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Old 08-12-11, 05:54 PM   #144
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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The 11th Circuit has ruled the individual mandate unconstitutional under the commerce clause. We now have a circuit split on the issue, making SCt review all the more likely. However, they determined they could sever it from the rest.
So if that's how it ends up Obamacare will just cost a couple hundred billion more than expected a year. No way the program will be repealed as long as Democrats have any control of the WH, Senate, or House.
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Old 08-12-11, 08:27 PM   #145
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

I wouldn't celebrate just yet if I were you. The dissent points out some pretty shaky reasoning in the majority opinion. Anyway, as the law stands as the 11th Circuit reads it, you've basically forced the insurance industry out of business.
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Old 08-12-11, 10:57 PM   #146
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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I wouldn't celebrate just yet if I were you. The dissent points out some pretty shaky reasoning in the majority opinion. Anyway, as the law stands as the 11th Circuit reads it, you've basically forced the insurance industry out of business.
It's hard for me to imagine any more "shaky reasoning" than saying the federal government is able to make someone purchase something just because they exist. But that sure doesn't mean the rest of that monstrosity won't die.

We might as well go down in a blaze of good intentions. It might help other people in the future.
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Old 08-12-11, 11:29 PM   #147
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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I wouldn't celebrate just yet if I were you. The dissent points out some pretty shaky reasoning in the majority opinion. Anyway, as the law stands as the 11th Circuit reads it, you've basically forced the insurance industry out of business.
Being a non law dude, could you explain to me the rationale behind requiring the purchase of a product? Also, I am wondering how this, if upheld, would not allow the government to require the purchase of any other product, such as shampoo, or whatever product they desire that we all purchase. Is it the "car insurance" argument, or is there any other thing that can be required to be purchased simply as a result of existing?
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Old 08-13-11, 07:43 AM   #148
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Being a non law dude, could you explain to me the rationale behind requiring the purchase of a product? Also, I am wondering how this, if upheld, would not allow the government to require the purchase of any other product, such as shampoo, or whatever product they desire that we all purchase. Is it the "car insurance" argument, or is there any other thing that can be required to be purchased simply as a result of existing?
It's the "car insurance" argument....

If you want to drive your car then you must buy car insurance.
If you want to live then you must buy health insurance.

If you don't have car insurance then you keep your car off the road. If you don't have health insurance..... hello government death squads.
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Old 08-13-11, 08:19 AM   #149
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Being a non law dude, could you explain to me the rationale behind requiring the purchase of a product? Also, I am wondering how this, if upheld, would not allow the government to require the purchase of any other product, such as shampoo, or whatever product they desire that we all purchase. Is it the "car insurance" argument, or is there any other thing that can be required to be purchased simply as a result of existing?
This short article summarizes two arguments as to why the law may be constitutional: http://www.scotusblog.com/2011/08/th...onstitutional/

The "car insurance" argument doesn't apply to this law because states require the purchase of car insurance, not the federal government. States have lots of powers ("police power") the federal government doesn't have. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_power). Thus, the only way the Supreme Court would find the health care law constitutional would be under the federal powers of the commerce clause and the taxing power, which are detailed in the article linked in the above paragraph.

I really have no idea how the SCOTUS would decide this issue.
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Old 08-13-11, 04:55 PM   #150
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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Originally Posted by TruGator View Post
This short article summarizes two arguments as to why the law may be constitutional: http://www.scotusblog.com/2011/08/th...onstitutional/

The "car insurance" argument doesn't apply to this law because states require the purchase of car insurance, not the federal government. States have lots of powers ("police power") the federal government doesn't have. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_power). Thus, the only way the Supreme Court would find the health care law constitutional would be under the federal powers of the commerce clause and the taxing power, which are detailed in the article linked in the above paragraph.

I really have no idea how the SCOTUS would decide this issue.
Thanks for the link. This was interesting....
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Opponents of the health care law say that if it is upheld then the government can force people to buy an American car or to eat broccoli. But a person can opt to not drive or not to eat vegetables; no one realistically can opt out of health care.
It seems odd that no one can opt out of health care. One would think that Quakers and others effectively do that. Jehovah's Witnesses opt out of anything that would include blood transfusions. It isn't that you can't opt out, it is that you can't be allowed to opt out.

Also, it seems like the argument in the article is that it is ultimately a tax. I was quite sure that we were told repeatedly that it wasn't a tax.
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