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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

View Poll Results: What % of self-identified Republicans are aware of Obamacare's conservative roots?
0 to 25% 51 79.69%
26 to 50% 3 4.69%
51 to 75% 0 0%
76 to 100% 10 15.63%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-02-17, 08:01 AM   #6776
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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Originally Posted by cungar View Post
TX Congressman Louis Gohmert told Fox Business Network that Senators lied about repealing the ACA, and he singled out John McCain

"I pray for Senator McCain, for his health, his full recovery from the cancer but it doesn't give him the right to make people suffer more under the current ACA," Gohmert said.
It's just unfathomable how anyone on the face of the earth can make a statement like this. Who exactly are suffering under ACA, that would suffer less under the embarrassing non-alternative?
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Old 08-02-17, 08:29 AM   #6777
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
However, as a single payer the government would have huge power to make changes. Ever wonder why an MRI in this country cost more today than when introduced and is relatively old technology? Or why one cost so much more here than in other democratic countries? Simple, because providers CAN charge that to insurance companies. They can get away with it.
Can you explain this to me?

I think an MRI costs around $2,500 in the U.S. and around around $500 in Europe. So we're presumably paying too much. Part of that may simply be accounting -- our $2,500 includes a portion of the radiologist's salary, the rent on the facility, etc. while in France (for example), that is paid separately by the government.

But let's focus on the bargaining power aspect. In a single-payer system, the government could simply say "We are paying $500 for MRIs, period" and providers would be forced to accept it.

In the world we live in, most states have 2 or 3 insurers who, among them, have upwards of 90% of the market. If I own an MRI clinic in Austin, TX, something like 65% of my potential customers have Humana and something like 30% have BCBS. If Humana comes to me and says "We are only paying $500 for MRIs," I basically have two choices -- charge $500 for MRIs or go out of business. And Humana has every incentive to do that. So if the hypothetical single-payer could do it, why isn't Humana?
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Old 08-02-17, 09:00 AM   #6778
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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Originally Posted by Gunde View Post
Who exactly are suffering under ACA...
Crybaby middle class families who prefer an iPhone over affording health insurance.

(Which asshole said that a few months back?)
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Old 08-02-17, 09:10 AM   #6779
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
In a single-payer system, the government could simply say "We are paying $500 for MRIs, period" and providers would be forced to accept it.
I think where that falls apart, is that a business plan shaped around a $500 MRI (and similar pricing) might fall apart. You have the education, equipment to finance, and all the overhead to go with it.

In manufacturing, there's a big trend towards "lean manufacturing". It's what everyone wants to do now. On the other end, healthcare is the most bloated and bureaucratic industry I can think of. It's a very wasteful industry. And the consumer pays for the waste.

The only advantage to the waste, is the trickle-down economics that comes with it. If they stopped wasting so much money, people would lose their jobs, companies would close, technological progress would slow.
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Old 08-02-17, 09:46 AM   #6780
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

It's interesting that somehow the Government is expected to be more efficient than the greedy capitalistic corporations. I can't think of any example where the government extracted value that a private company couldn't do cheaper. Think of the recent news for building a 2 Million dollar 400 square foot restroom with 2 urinals and one toilet in it in NY.

I feel like part of the solution has to be reigning in the special interest loopholes and lobbying. There has to be a way to increase competition among drug companies, hospitals and health insurance industries.

For a while, generic drug prices were in a free fall and stores like Target & Walmart offered most drugs at a few dollars a month. We need to encourage this, allow drug patents to expire on schedule, have multiple generics available for popular drugs to drive the costs down. No one company should be allowed exclusive rights to popular generics.

Like mentioned before in this thread (I think), health insurance should be encouraged to cover (almost completely) visits to local clinics inside Walgreens/CVS/Walmart/Target that can handle 95% of non-serious ailments. Whether it's just one of my ears are clogged up with wax, or I need 2 stitches for a cut, it should be a minimal cost out of pocket. Or maybe bring back family physicians that know you, and they get a cut of your health insurance premiums to maintain a relationship with you, so that if he has 200 people that get him $500 a year, that's $100k base income to provide basic services at a low cost.

Diagnosis for more serious conditions should be covered completely, emergency rooms visits should be covered completely. I shouldn't have to consider the costs when deciding to see a doctor the first time for an ailment. Once the diagnosis is in place, then my treatment costs should be laid out clearly with my options, and I should be able to compare these costs against other hospitals/clinics before deciding what my next steps should be. The emergency room should be set up to determine whether your condition is serious and should shuttle you off to schedule an appointment with your family physician for a followup.

Once 95% of the clinic visits and treatment costs are driven down to sub $20 a visit, then health insurance costs should fall greatly, and people can use them for what they are needed for, catastrophic conditions such as cancer or serious injuries. And I do think that your risk should be reflect in your costs, if you are overweight, you pay more, you break a leg every year since you like to hang glide, you pay more. Like car insurance, your rates will be determined based on your risk and the number or cost of your claims. One or two doctor visits a year shouldn't raise your rates, but maybe if it's less visits, you get a "healthy patient" discount.

Just throwing out ideas that doesn't require a bloated inefficient government to take over the entire health care industry.
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Old 08-02-17, 09:54 AM   #6781
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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Originally Posted by Bandoman View Post
Um...you're not going to be able to do that without amending the Constitution, and turning this country into something pretty different from what it is now. I'm not in favor of abrogating property rights and allowing government seizure of entire industries. The single payer system would control drug prices without having to nationalize the industry.
As long as healthcare is a for profit system, companies are going to make decisions that harm people for profit. I am in favor of the seizure of the means of production, but I do agree with you that the Constitution would need to be amended or rewritten for such things to come to pass.
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Old 08-02-17, 10:58 AM   #6782
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
Can you explain this to me?

I think an MRI costs around $2,500 in the U.S. and around around $500 in Europe. So we're presumably paying too much. Part of that may simply be accounting -- our $2,500 includes a portion of the radiologist's salary, the rent on the facility, etc. while in France (for example), that is paid separately by the government.

But let's focus on the bargaining power aspect. In a single-payer system, the government could simply say "We are paying $500 for MRIs, period" and providers would be forced to accept it.

In the world we live in, most states have 2 or 3 insurers who, among them, have upwards of 90% of the market. If I own an MRI clinic in Austin, TX, something like 65% of my potential customers have Humana and something like 30% have BCBS. If Humana comes to me and says "We are only paying $500 for MRIs," I basically have two choices -- charge $500 for MRIs or go out of business. And Humana has every incentive to do that. So if the hypothetical single-payer could do it, why isn't Humana?
Here is one article.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.was...280-in-france/

Essentially the government or a third party "committee" set prices.

One issue in the USA is medical items despite age, the prices go up! Think about that. Would you pay more today for a laptop that was made in 2010 then it cost in 2010? Of course not. But that MRI continues to go up instead of down in cost.

Drugs are similar. Here in the US. Use the same drug for a "new" purpose and charge more.

I'm all for capitalism and free market. But IMO healthcare providers have "blown it". They have not responded to crisis or out right ignore the crisis.

Again, I'm a convert. I have seen the light. You can find many a post from me 8 years ago against the ACA, the mandate, etc. and I was wrong. And I was proven wrong over these 8 years.

There is nothing magical or perfect about single payer. But looking at the success of other countries how can we ignore it? Anyone really going to argue our system is better?

As for "well our government..."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...ors/index.html

Medicare very often spends less than private. Typically 20% less. Of course 20% in and of itself is not that different. But that is the beauty of a single payer you can effect a lot of things that add up to big things.

Say you save 20% on medical procedures. 20% on drugs. 20% on the profits/overhead health insurance companies make. Etc, etc
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Last edited by Sdallnct; 08-02-17 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 08-02-17, 03:19 PM   #6783
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
As long as healthcare is a for profit system, companies are going to make decisions that harm people for profit. I am in favor of the seizure of the means of production, but I do agree with you that the Constitution would need to be amended or rewritten for such things to come to pass.
If a single payer system was introduced, the private health insurance industry would disappear and the profit motive would be gone.
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Old 08-02-17, 03:22 PM   #6784
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandoman View Post
If a single payer system was introduced, the private health insurance industry would disappear and the profit motive would be gone.
The profit motive would be gone for insurance, but not for hospitals/doctors/pharmaceutical companies.
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Old 08-02-17, 07:43 PM   #6785
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
The profit motive would be gone for insurance, but not for hospitals/doctors/pharmaceutical companies.
Exactly. Dr's don't work for free in a single payer system.

But with full backing of the federal government the government can control those profits.

That is one mistake of the ACA it capped profits by insurance companies by saying that 80-85% of ALL premium dollars go to pay calms. Well that was kind of stupid. Why? What is the incentive of insurance companies to keep costs down? None because they won't get to keep any more of the money.

If we all agree the government can cap private insurance profits (and we seem to) then why not cap profits of Doctors, drug companies and hospitals? Which is essentially what other countries with single payer system does and what Medicaid does here by setting pricing.
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Old 08-02-17, 08:10 PM   #6786
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerryD View Post
It's interesting that somehow the Government is expected to be more efficient than the greedy capitalistic corporations. I can't think of any example where the government extracted value that a private company couldn't do cheaper. Think of the recent news for building a 2 Million dollar 400 square foot restroom with 2 urinals and one toilet in it in NY.

I feel like part of the solution has to be reigning in the special interest loopholes and lobbying. There has to be a way to increase competition among drug companies, hospitals and health insurance industries.

For a while, generic drug prices were in a free fall and stores like Target & Walmart offered most drugs at a few dollars a month. We need to encourage this, allow drug patents to expire on schedule, have multiple generics available for popular drugs to drive the costs down. No one company should be allowed exclusive rights to popular generics.

Like mentioned before in this thread (I think), health insurance should be encouraged to cover (almost completely) visits to local clinics inside Walgreens/CVS/Walmart/Target that can handle 95% of non-serious ailments. Whether it's just one of my ears are clogged up with wax, or I need 2 stitches for a cut, it should be a minimal cost out of pocket. Or maybe bring back family physicians that know you, and they get a cut of your health insurance premiums to maintain a relationship with you, so that if he has 200 people that get him $500 a year, that's $100k base income to provide basic services at a low cost.

Diagnosis for more serious conditions should be covered completely, emergency rooms visits should be covered completely. I shouldn't have to consider the costs when deciding to see a doctor the first time for an ailment. Once the diagnosis is in place, then my treatment costs should be laid out clearly with my options, and I should be able to compare these costs against other hospitals/clinics before deciding what my next steps should be. The emergency room should be set up to determine whether your condition is serious and should shuttle you off to schedule an appointment with your family physician for a followup.

Once 95% of the clinic visits and treatment costs are driven down to sub $20 a visit, then health insurance costs should fall greatly, and people can use them for what they are needed for, catastrophic conditions such as cancer or serious injuries. And I do think that your risk should be reflect in your costs, if you are overweight, you pay more, you break a leg every year since you like to hang glide, you pay more. Like car insurance, your rates will be determined based on your risk and the number or cost of your claims. One or two doctor visits a year shouldn't raise your rates, but maybe if it's less visits, you get a "healthy patient" discount.

Just throwing out ideas that doesn't require a bloated inefficient government to take over the entire health care industry.

http://nypost.com/2017/07/06/council...park-bathroom/

Councilman can’t believe city spent $2M on this tiny park bathroom

July 6, 2016





A Brooklyn councilman is accusing the city of flushing $2 million down the toilet while building a public restroom at a local park.

Democrat David Greenfield told WCBS-TV on Wednesday that it took him 7˝ years to get City Hall to repair the formerly run-down Gravesend Park on 18th Avenue.

But the newly refurbished park became a pyrrhic victory for Greenfield when he learned it cost $2 million to build the new, 400-square-foot bathroom facility.

“I’m frustrated that we are essentially wasting taxpayer money,” Greenfield said. “You can build a complete house in six months for $1 million.”

He pointed blame directly at Mayor Bill de Blasio, explaining, “The buck stops with the administration and at the end of the day, if the administration really made this their priority, they could figure out a way to cut the red tape.”

Republican mayoral candidate Nicole Malliotakis also piled on the administration, saying the project was plagued by “mismanagement.

“You get a feeling in this administration that taxpayer money grows on trees,” she said.
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Old 08-02-17, 10:37 PM   #6787
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

Cool story bro....

But a single payer is not something that is used to build anything. A single payer does not build hospitals. Or Doctors offices. Or drug manufacturing plants.

It simply replaces the insurance companies. And like insurance companies it works with existing healthcare providers. It doesn't "create" them. But it sets rates for those provides. It gains efficiency by standardizing processes.

Look at it this way; does Geico build cars? No! They insure the cars built by Ford and bought by you and I.
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Old 08-03-17, 03:34 PM   #6788
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Cool story bro....

But a single payer is not something that is used to build anything. A single payer does not build hospitals. Or Doctors offices. Or drug manufacturing plants.

It simply replaces the insurance companies. And like insurance companies it works with existing healthcare providers. It doesn't "create" them. But it sets rates for those provides. It gains efficiency by standardizing processes.

Look at it this way; does Geico build cars? No! They insure the cars built by Ford and bought by you and I.
I agree with you.

I only posted the story as an aside to the fact that it had been brought up, and I had not heard about it before.
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Old 08-04-17, 06:58 PM   #6789
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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Old 08-04-17, 07:47 PM   #6790
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

Conway said Trump would decide what to do with the Obamacare payments this week.

Quote:
(CNN) White House counselor Kellyanne Conway said Sunday that President Donald Trump would make a decision "this week" on whether to continue government payments to insurance companies to help lower costs for lower-income policyholders under Obamacare.

"He's going to make that decision this week," Conway said of the so-called cost-sharing reduction payments in an interview on "Fox News Sunday." And that's a decision that only he can make."
I'm surprised he's going to take a break from the golf course this weekend to bang this out.
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Old 08-04-17, 07:56 PM   #6791
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 9

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That seems to align with my personal experience. Another dimension to that is that I can guarantee you Cardinal Health is not billing the hospital $1 for on-demand IV bags. Healthcare is an embarrassingly bloated industry.
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