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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

View Poll Results: Is WikiLeaks holding back certain info for an early November release?
Yes, potentially damaging info is being temporarily withheld. 8 47.06%
No, the releases are haphazard. 9 52.94%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-04-10, 10:39 AM   #101
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason View Post
It's too bad then that the United States does not already have a laws concerning espionage, cybercrimes, and the theft of trade secrets. It is also too bad that, relatedly, the US doesn't have some type of agreements with other nations that allow individuals charged with a crime to be transported to the US to face those charges. If only. And it is also a shame that assange isn't already wanted on other charges, charges that may lead to his detention.


(It is not nearly as simple of a situation as the above two posts seem to claim).






Note, I am not stating with any certainty that the US could charge assange with the hope of actually convicting him, nor that other nations would extradite him to the US. I am particularly ignorant about double criminality and how it might apply here.
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Old 12-04-10, 01:24 PM   #102
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

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Originally Posted by Suprmallet View Post
Well, currently, only the United States (and Canada, I guess, if anyone counts them) has any problem with Assange. If he's facing fines or jail time, they'd only be worthwhile as deterrents if he came to the United States.
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with Vladimir Levin.

He committed his crimes against a US company while sitting in Russia. I guess he thought he was pretty safe since Russia had no extradition treaty at the time. Scotland Yard picked him up while he passed through England on a connecting flight and sent him to the US to stand trial. He ended up with a fine and jail time.

The US likes to project jurisdiction around the globe. No one is safe.
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Old 12-04-10, 02:05 PM   #103
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

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Originally Posted by Pistol Pete View Post
The US likes to project jurisdiction around the globe. No one is safe.
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Old 12-04-10, 04:35 PM   #104
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pistol Pete
The US likes to project jurisdiction around the globe. No one is safe.
Roman Polanski would disagree.
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Old 12-04-10, 09:38 PM   #105
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

I didn't see it mentioned in the thread yet, but PayPal has restricted/canceled WikiLeaks' account so they can no longer receive donations, citing the organization's illegal activities as being in violation of PayPal's policies.

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Old 12-05-10, 02:20 PM   #106
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

I don't understand the encrypted "insurance" documents he's released. If the whole point of wikileaks is that information wants to be free and he has information people would want, shouldn't he release it? releasing it encrypted as insurance against arrest seems like he's doing it for selfish reasons and not for the principle
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Old 12-05-10, 06:16 PM   #107
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

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Originally Posted by kstublen View Post
I didn't see it mentioned in the thread yet, but PayPal has restricted/canceled WikiLeaks' account so they can no longer receive donations, citing the organization's illegal activities as being in violation of PayPal's policies.

What is Wikileaks doing that is illegal?
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Old 12-05-10, 07:34 PM   #108
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

Posting documents classified By the government
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Old 12-05-10, 08:17 PM   #109
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

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Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post
Posting documents classified By the government
That's not illegal.
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Old 12-05-10, 08:45 PM   #110
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

I read that the US has an "Espionage Act" but that it doesn't apply to the media. So they can go after those who stole/leaked documents but not after those who subsequently "print" them.
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Old 12-06-10, 07:37 AM   #111
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

Quote:
WASHINGTON (AFP) – WikiLeaks has divulged a secret list compiled by Washington of key infrastructure sites around the world that could pose a critical danger to US security if they come under terrorist attack.

The newly released diplomatic cable is one of the most explosive yet out of many leaked by the whistle-blowing website that have heaped embarrassment on Washington and caused anger around the world.

Among other revelations, the latest WikiLeaks document dump showed Australia's then leader Kevin Rudd warning US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton that force might be needed against China "if everything goes wrong".

A State Department cable from February 2009 asked US missions to update a list of infrastructure and key resources worldwide whose loss "could critically impact" the country's public health, economic life and national security.

It details undersea cables, key communications, ports, mineral resources and firms of strategic importance in countries ranging from Britain to New Zealand, via Africa, the Middle East and China.

A Canadian hydroelectric plant is described as a "critical irreplaceable source of power to portions of Northeast US," while a Siemens factory in Germany does "essentially irreplaceable production of key chemicals".

Also listed are European manufacturers of vaccines for smallpox and rabies, an Italian maker of treatment for snake-bite venom, and a German company making treatment for plutonium poisoning.

According to the diplomatic cable, the request was designed "to strengthen national preparedness, timely response, and rapid recovery in the event of an attack, natural disaster or other emergency".

Compilation of the list would help "prevent, deter, neutralize or mitigate the effects of deliberate efforts by terrorists to destroy, incapacitate or exploit" sites deemed of "vital" importance to the United States.

Malcolm Rifkind, a former British defense and foreign secretary, lashed out at WikiLeaks for releasing the list.

"This is further evidence that they have been generally irresponsible, bordering on criminal. This is the kind of information terrorists are interested in knowing," he said, according to British media.

The release will add to the political storm engulfing WikiLeaks and its 39-year-old founder Julian Assange, who broke cover on Friday to say in an online chat that he had boosted his security after receiving death threats.

The website is already battling to secure its avenues for financial donations online, and has been hop-scotching across servers and legal jurisdictions to evade a total shutdown.

Assange's British lawyer, Mark Stephens, said Sunday that a legal pursuit of Assange in Sweden had "political motivations".

But Swedish prosecutor Marianne Ny, who is investigating allegations of rape and sexual assault against Assange, defended her prosecution in comments to AFP.

"This investigation has proceeded perfectly normally without any political pressure of any kind," said Ny, who, via Interpol, has asked police forces around the world to track Assange down.

Leading US lawmakers are calling for Assange's arrest or even execution. Top Senate Republican Mitch McConnell slammed him Sunday as a "high-tech terrorist".

Among the latest revelations:

-- One cable said Saudi Arabia was the key source of funding for radical Islamist groups including Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, Lashkar-e-Taiba and Hamas.

-- Gulf states Qatar and Kuwait are lax in pursuing locals who donated to the groups, according to the cable dated December 2009.

-- Qatar is using the Arabic TV news channel Al-Jazeera as a bargaining chip in negotiations with other countries, despite the broadcaster's insistence that it is editorially independent.

-- Clinton views Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin as a "behind-the-scenes puppeteer" who chafes at his role working alongside President Dmitry Medvedev.

Another leak with the potential to infuriate China revealed details of a conversation between Rudd, when he was Australia's prime minister, and Clinton over a Washington lunch in March 2009.

Rudd called for "integrating China effectively into the international community and allowing it to demonstrate greater responsibility, all while also preparing to deploy force if everything goes wrong," the cable stated.

Rudd, a Mandarin-speaking former diplomat who is now foreign minister, said Monday that Australia had a robust relationship with China and that he had no intention of contacting Beijing over the cable.
wow... why the #$%# is this prick doing this?
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Old 12-06-10, 08:19 AM   #112
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet View Post
That's not illegal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18 USC 793
(e) Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it ... Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
Let's see -- Assange has unauthorized access to documents pertaining to national defense which he communicated through his website to people not entitled to see it. Certainly looks like he committed a crime to me. The only question is whether the US can claim jurisdiction over him -- and I believe there is precedent for such.
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Old 12-06-10, 08:34 AM   #113
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

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Originally Posted by eXcentris View Post
I read that the US has an "Espionage Act" but that it doesn't apply to the media. So they can go after those who stole/leaked documents but not after those who subsequently "print" them.
This is false. The media has never been charged with its violation, but that is not the same as saying it couldn't be. The problem comes, as I understand it, with knowledge of violation and specific intent.

There are also the issues of whether or not wikileaks and assange are parts of "the media," and whether there is a legal distinction between "news" gathering and "news" publishing.

Personally, I think asange violated the Espionage Act, and would be in clear violation of the UK's Secrets Act, and thus could be charged and extradited. I don't think he will be though.

However, I do think he may be charged with, and by his own admissions is guilty of, theft of trade secrets and potentially other economic crimes. He does not need to even publish those to be guilty.

In short, he is guilty of many crimes, in my opinion.
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Old 12-06-10, 08:51 AM   #114
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

The release of the critical sites list just seems stupid. if he's releasing everything, that'd be one thing but he's obviously, not releasing everything (see insurance post above) so why wouldn't he censor this cable?
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Old 12-06-10, 09:08 AM   #115
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
Let's see -- Assange has unauthorized access to documents pertaining to national defense which he communicated through his website to people not entitled to see it. Certainly looks like he committed a crime to me. The only question is whether the US can claim jurisdiction over him -- and I believe there is precedent for such.
Did he violate the Espionage Act, though? That's the question. I don't believe he did, but I don't know the whole of what Wikileaks released.

It's interesting to me that when Wikileaks released information about troop movements and the like, there was no fallout, but now that they've released more gossipy information, everyone is falling over themselves to try and shut Wikileaks down.
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Old 12-06-10, 09:26 AM   #116
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet View Post
Did he violate the Espionage Act, though? That's the question. I don't believe he did, but I don't know the whole of what Wikileaks released.

It's interesting to me that when Wikileaks released information about troop movements and the like, there was no fallout, but now that they've released more gossipy information, everyone is falling over themselves to try and shut Wikileaks down.
Why wouldn't you expect politicians to get madder about being embarrassed than possibly endangering other people?
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Old 12-06-10, 09:35 AM   #117
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

I think it's partly class-based thinking. People in Washington are much less outraged by the publication of old situation reports from sergeants than the publication of comments from "people like us." There is also more potential of undoing the diplomatic efforts of the last couple of years.
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Old 12-06-10, 09:51 AM   #118
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

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Originally Posted by orangecrush View Post
Why wouldn't you expect politicians to get madder about being embarrassed than possibly endangering other people?
Well, that was my point.
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Old 12-06-10, 10:11 AM   #119
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

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Originally Posted by raven56706 View Post
wow... why the #$%# is this prick doing this?
The answers to your question can be found in the sections that you quoted...

Of particular interest, at least to me is:
"One cable said Saudi Arabia was the key source of funding for radical Islamist groups including Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, Lashkar-e-Taiba and Hamas. "

You're calling this guy a "prick" for exposing the information... when the disdain should be directed at those in power who had this information and sat on it. It should also be directed at those who committed the actions being exposed. But that won't happen because it is being written off as, "well everybody knows that politics and diplomacy are shady dealings"... and yet the whistleblowers are to be held to a higher standard.

Feel free to jump on the bandwagon of attacking the messenger.
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Old 12-06-10, 10:58 AM   #120
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet View Post
Did he violate the Espionage Act, though? That's the question.
Which is why I posted the relevant text from the Espionage Act, complete with bolding and commentary.

Quote:
I don't believe he did, but I don't know the whole of what Wikileaks released.
The key passage is, "Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing ... relating to the national defense." I think it's quite clear that the Iraq and Afghanistan documents relate to national defense, and the argument an be made for some of the diplomatic cables.
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Old 12-06-10, 12:04 PM   #121
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

The American tax payers deserve all the money back that was spent on securing these secrets. An 11 year old girls diary is better protected.
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Old 12-06-10, 12:25 PM   #122
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sracer View Post
The answers to your question can be found in the sections that you quoted...

Of particular interest, at least to me is:
"One cable said Saudi Arabia was the key source of funding for radical Islamist groups including Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, Lashkar-e-Taiba and Hamas. "
is that a secret?

but either way, that came from a different cable, right? Why release both?
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Old 12-06-10, 01:04 PM   #123
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

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Well, that was my point.
As long as we can all agree that most politicians are jerkwads...
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Old 12-07-10, 07:22 AM   #124
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

Quote:
Britain Arrests WikiLeaks Founder in Sex Inquiry
By ALAN COWELL AND JOHN F. BURNS
Published: December 7, 2010

LONDON — Police in Britain arrested Julian Assange on Tuesday on a Swedish warrant issued in connection with alleged sex offenses, British police officials said, the latest twist in the drama swirling around the anti-secrecy group WikiLeaks and its beleaguered founder.

But his associates said his detention would not alter plans for further disclosures like those it has made in recent months relating to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and, over the past 9 days, disclosing confidential diplomatic messages between the State Department and American representatives abroad.

“Today’s actions against our editor-in-chief Julian Assange won’t affect our operations: we will release more cables tonight as normal,” a posting on the WikiLeaks Twitter account said.

Mr. Assange, a 39-year-old Australian, was arrested by officers from Scotland Yard’s extradition unit when he went to a central London police station by prior agreement with the authorities, the police said. A court hearing was expected later in the day.

In a statement, the police said: “Officers from the Metropolitan Police extradition unit have this morning arrested Julian Assange on behalf of the Swedish authorities on suspicion of rape.”

Mr. Assange denies the charges of sexual misconduct said to have been committed while he was in Sweden in August. It was not immediately clear if Mr. Assange would resist extradition to Sweden for questioning by prosecutors there.

Previously, his British lawyer, Mark Stephens, has suggested Mr. Assange might resist on the grounds that Swedish authorities could interview him by video-link from Stockholm or at their embassy in London and that the extradition request itself is politically-motivated.

“It’s about time we got to the end of the day and we got some truth, justice and rule of law,” Mr. Stephens told reporters on Tuesday. “Julian Assange has been the one in hot pursuit to vindicate himself to clear his good name.”

Mr. Stephens said his client had been seeking to learn from the Swedish prosecutor “what the allegations are he has to face and also the evidence against him, which he still hasn’t seen,” The Press Association news agency reported.

While widely anticipated, the arrest opened an array of new questions about Mr. Assange’s future, even as the Justice Department in Washington said it was conducting what Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. called “a very serious, active, ongoing investigation that is criminal in nature” into the WikiLeaks matter.

Since late November, WikiLeaks has been publishing documents from a trove of over 250,000 diplomatic cables. Mr. Assange has threatened to release many more if legal action is taken against him or his organization.

“Over 100,000 people” were given the entire archive of 251,287 cables in encrypted form, Mr. Assange said on Friday in a question-and-answer session on the Web site of the British newspaper The Guardian.

“If something happens to us, the key parts will be released automatically,” Mr. Assange said

Mr. Assange’s threat of further disclosures poses a problem for the Obama administration as it explores ways to prosecute Mr. Assange or the group in relation to the archive of diplomatic cables it obtained, reportedly from a low-ranking Army intelligence analyst.

The British police statement said Mr. Assange was “accused by the Swedish authorities of one count of unlawful coercion, two counts of sexual molestation and one count of rape, all alleged to have been committed in August 2010.”

The arrest was made under a European arrest warrant “by appointment at a London police station at 09:30 today,” the statement said.

The charges involve sexual encounters that two women say began as consensual but became nonconsensual after Mr. Assange was no longer using a condom. Mr. Assange has denied any wrongdoing and suggested that the charges were trumped up in retaliation for his WikiLeaks work, though there is no public evidence to suggest a connection.

His arrest came challenges mounted to his operations, as computer server companies, Amazon.com and PayPal.com, have cut off commercial cooperation with WikiLeaks.

On Monday, a Swiss bank froze an account held by Mr. Assange that had been used to collect donations for WikiLeaks. Marc Andrey, a spokesman for the bank, PostFinance, an arm of the Swiss postal service, said the account was closed because Mr. Assange “gave us false information when he opened the account,” asserting inaccurately that he lived in Switzerland.

His threat is not idle, because as of Monday night the group had released fewer than 1,000 of the quarter-million State Department cables it had obtained, reportedly from a low-ranking Army intelligence analyst.

So far, the group has moved cautiously. The whole archive was made available to five news organizations, including The New York Times. But WikiLeaks has posted only a few dozen cables on its own in addition to matching those made public by the news publications. According to the State Department’s count, 1,325 cables, or fewer than 1 percent of the total, have been made public by all parties to date.

There appears to be no way for American authorities to retrieve all copies of the cables archive. And legal experts say there are serious obstacles to any prosecution of Mr. Assange or his group.

But the disclosure of the confidential communications between the State Department and 270 American embassies and consulates has infuriated administration officials and prompted calls from Congress to pursue charges.

Justice Department prosecutors have been struggling to find a way to indict Mr. Assange since July, when WikiLeaks made public documents on the war in Afghanistan. But while it is clearly illegal for a government official with a security clearance to give a classified document to WikiLeaks, it is far from clear that it is illegal for the organization to make it public.

The Justice Department has considered trying to indict Mr. Assange under the Espionage Act, which has never been successfully used to prosecute a third-party recipient of a leak. Some lawmakers have suggested accusing WikiLeaks of receiving stolen government property, but experts said Monday that would also pose difficulties.

Perhaps in a warning shot of sorts, WikiLeaks on Monday released a cable from early last year listing sites around the world — from hydroelectric dams in Canada to vaccine factories in Denmark — that are considered crucial to American national security.

Nearly all the facilities listed in the document, including undersea cables, oil pipelines and power plants, could be identified by Internet searches. But the disclosure prompted headlines in Europe and a new denunciation from the State Department, which said in a statement that “releasing such information amounts to giving a targeting list to groups like Al Qaeda.”

Asked later about the cable, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said the continuing disclosures posed “real concerns, and even potential damage to our friends and partners around the world.”

In recent months, WikiLeaks gave the entire collection of cables to four European publications — Der Spiegel in Germany, El País in Spain, Le Monde in France and The Guardian. The Guardian shared the cable collection with The New York Times.

Since Nov. 28, each publication has been publishing a series of articles about revelations in the cables, accompanied online by the texts of some of the documents. The publications have removed the names of some confidential sources of American diplomats, and WikiLeaks has generally posted the cables with the same redactions.

But with the initial series of articles and cable postings nearing an end, the fate of the roughly 250,000 cables that have not been placed online is uncertain. The five publications have announced no plans to make public all the documents. WikiLeaks’s intentions remain unclear.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/08/wo...er=rss&emc=rss
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Old 12-07-10, 08:50 AM   #125
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Re: No wikileaks discussion?

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Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet View Post
That's not illegal.
might be legal in sweden but paypal is a us financial institution and it's illegal in the US to post classified documents on the internet
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