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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 12-22-10, 02:36 PM   #126
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suprmallet View Post
http://www.engadget.com/2010/12/21/f...ations-on-wir/



This doesn't even make sense. Because Android is open source, we won't place restrictions on mobile carriers? Isn't that kind of like saying, "Because two story houses look nice, we won't put any regulations on how they can be built"?
No it's more like saying, "Because anyone can build a house, we don't need traffic regulations."
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Old 12-22-10, 03:06 PM   #127
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post
You must live out in the boonies
Omaha is hardly the boonies. Most people can get either get cable internet from one company or DSL from another if they are lucky. The people who really live in the boonies can get a dish.
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Old 12-22-10, 03:09 PM   #128
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangecrush View Post
Omaha is hardly the boonies.
Read that to yourself again.

Didn't make sense that time, did it?
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Old 12-22-10, 03:14 PM   #129
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Read that to yourself again.

Didn't make sense that time, did it?
According to this:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763098.html

We are top 40 and bigger than Miami, so suck it.
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Old 12-22-10, 03:39 PM   #130
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet View Post
No it's more like saying, "Because anyone can build a house, we don't need traffic regulations."
Works for me! Either way, the FCC is spouting out some bullshit.
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Old 12-22-10, 03:53 PM   #131
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet View Post
I'm unhappy with the fact that Time Warner has decided to charge me extra to use Netflix.

I guess I can switch to Verizon DSL.

Oh wait, they're charging me extra for Netflix too.

I guess I'm screwed.
Isn't that called collusion?

Why make up a new law when we already have an existing law that deals with this problem?
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Old 12-22-10, 04:41 PM   #132
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangecrush View Post
According to this:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763098.html

We are top 40 and bigger than Miami, so suck it.
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Old 12-22-10, 04:50 PM   #133
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

I find some of the reductionist comments a little ironic. I hope everyone remembers that it was government agencies/departments like the DoD and NSF that built arpanet and funded the development of an "inter-network" long before anyone in the private sector had an inkling that there might be value in it. There were a lot of good decisions made by bureaucrats and legislators that got us here in the first place, but recognizing that probably doesn't allow for very pithy comments, I guess.
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Old 12-22-10, 05:49 PM   #134
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

Yeah, they should just take ownership of it.

Do you think it would have become what it is if they had kept control and regulated it the entire time?
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Old 12-22-10, 06:09 PM   #135
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Originally Posted by belboz View Post
I find some of the reductionist comments a little ironic. I hope everyone remembers that it was government agencies/departments like the DoD and NSF that built arpanet and funded the development of an "inter-network" long before anyone in the private sector had an inkling that there might be value in it. There were a lot of good decisions made by bureaucrats and legislators that got us here in the first place, but recognizing that probably doesn't allow for very pithy comments, I guess.
But doesn't that make it all the more awful that the FCC is knuckling under to the telecoms?

The inter-network was (essentially) built for us, by us, paid for with our tax dollars. Now the telecoms want to take it away so they can sell it back to us again.
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Old 12-22-10, 06:13 PM   #136
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Omaha is hardly the boonies. Most people can get either get cable internet from one company or DSL from another if they are lucky. The people who really live in the boonies can get a dish.


Www.clear.com
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Old 12-22-10, 06:20 PM   #137
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
Isn't that called collusion?

Why make up a new law when we already have an existing law that deals with this problem?
Collusion requires actual colluding. Multiple companies engaging in parallel behavior, absent some evidence that they agreed with each other to engage in that behavior, is not illegal.
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Old 12-22-10, 06:30 PM   #138
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Yeah, they should just take ownership of it.

Do you think it would have become what it is if they had kept control and regulated it the entire time?
It's the lack of a need for regulation that is the issue.

For every so-called 'conservative' who whines and cries about 'regulations!', and pines for 'free market!', there is a person who is ignorant(or at least in blind ideological self delusion) about what caused almost all such regulations - the avarice and corruption of corporations.

The FCC only got involved in this because of, and after, years of attempts by greedy, corrupt telco monopolies to fuck up the internet and screw American citizens. Citizens trying to stop this crap and KEEP an unregulated and 'open' internet - which has been the largest single engine of capital growth in the last 15 years - had the FCC as the only recourse. Microsoft, Amazon, Ebay, Facebook, MySpace, etc, all paid lawyers to fight this years back, and time after time found out what decades of corruption and bribery by the telcos in our Congress have accomplished. They could not stop this stuff via legislation or in court(ahhh the 'independent' judiciary). The end result of the greed of the telcos will ruin the internet in the US, and will be the reason for the international community to decouple with the US on control of such. Therefore what we invented and paid for will be lost as a US-controlled entity over this ultimately.

The funny thing is, those telcos overcharge so much already on both ends of the internet. They are raking in the cash. I'll not go into usage metrics and the like but it would blow your mind what the margins are on this stuff. It's nothing more than avarice that is causing this. Avarice emboldened by the power of the monopolies that have been allowed to occur in the big rectangle.
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Old 12-22-10, 08:14 PM   #139
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
Collusion requires actual colluding. Multiple companies engaging in parallel behavior, absent some evidence that they agreed with each other to engage in that behavior, is not illegal.
and if there's no agreement to engage in parallel behavior, then isn't that just the cost of doing business?
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Old 12-22-10, 08:19 PM   #140
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

Don't have the telecoms have some sort of mandate for using the airwave frequencies?

The Big 4 respond to the announcement:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/12/22/n...arriers-react/

Quote:
Amazingly, the FCC still hasn't released the full text of the net neutrality rules it passed by a contentious 3-2 vote yesterday, so we can't really say much about what's in them -- and while this sort of delay is typical of the Genachowski FCC, it hasn't stopped the carriers from issuing statements on the new rules. We've got to say, responses to the new rules range all over the map: Sprint commended the FCC, T-Mobile needs some time to look things over, AT&T called it a "fair middle ground" but railed about "radical voices" and "heavy-handed government regulation" (seriously) and Verizon -- well, Verizon issued what appears to be a veiled threat to sue everyone. That's pretty interesting, since it sure looks to us like the FCC all but rubber-stamped last summer's Google / Verizon neutrality proposal, but you never know what's happening behind closed doors -- and remember, Verizon's last major policy statement was a call to revamp the entire Telecommunications Act, so Big Red might have bigger plans in store. We've rounded up all the reactions below -- check 'em out.
The statements are available at the link. I do love the comment "Verizon--well, Verizon issued what appears to be a veiled threat to sue everyone." That, to me, is exactly how I always view Verizon.

Edit: If AT&T and Verizon are so vehemently against this resolution, then perhaps it's not as horrible as I once thought. But then again, perhaps both companies had statements ready to go if the FCC did anything short of declaring the internet a free for all.
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Last edited by Supermallet; 12-22-10 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 12-23-10, 12:10 AM   #141
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

One thing is for sure. If I knew what avarice was, I'd be outraged.
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Old 12-23-10, 12:13 AM   #142
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

Here's a question....do all small ISPs get their bandwidth from the big 4? In other words, do they buy in bulk and then resell it? I ask because I was under the impression that most ISPs were not big huge companies like ATT&T, etc. Where do ISPs get their bandwidth and who do they pay for it?
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Old 12-23-10, 12:19 AM   #143
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
and if there's no agreement to engage in parallel behavior, then isn't that just the cost of doing business?
I'm not sure what you mean by "the cost of doing business."
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Old 12-23-10, 01:14 AM   #144
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

I think he means that all gas companies can charge essentially the same using the argument that their costs of doing business are effectively similar. Thus, they aren't colluding in their prices being essentially the same, they are the same because their expenses are also the same.

My memory may be off on this, but his is how I remember the gas prices around '93-'94. Prices shot up and there was really no reason for it. Oil prices remained the same (roughly) but suddenly all gas companies were charging more. Finally, ARCO decided they had no idea why they were charging what they were, and lowered the price of their fuel. Once they did, other companies followed suit. Early 90s stuff seems so hard for me to ever find on the internet. We simply didn't have discussion groups like this making a good record of what seemed to be going on.
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Old 12-23-10, 01:40 AM   #145
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

Yes, but there's a difference between a single product at a single price and the tiered model that Tracer Bullet alluded to.
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Old 12-23-10, 05:22 AM   #146
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Originally Posted by Suprmallet View Post
Yes, but there's a difference between a single product at a single price and the tiered model that Tracer Bullet alluded to.
What if it wasn't a tiered model, but ISPs charged by bandwidth used? Would that be objectionable?
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Old 12-23-10, 05:57 AM   #147
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

my point is this:

if ISP 'a' decides to throttle internet, and if ISP 'b' didn't do that, and I had a choice, I'm spending my money with ISP 'b.'

The two issues that people have brought up:
1) what if all the ISPs all throttle bandwidth
2) what if the customer doesn't have the option to choose between 'a' or 'b'

are both issues for which the government already has recourse. The government already has the authority to stop what they see as anti-competitive behavior. And if Dr Mabuse is correct in saying that all these ISPs have insanely high margins, then wouldn't it seem logical to think that there would be other companies wanting to enter this market to take advantage of high margins? Why aren't they? What are the barriers to entry? Who is keeping these new firms from entering this market?
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Old 12-23-10, 06:09 AM   #148
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Here's a question....do all small ISPs get their bandwidth from the big 4? In other words, do they buy in bulk and then resell it? I ask because I was under the impression that most ISPs were not big huge companies like ATT&T, etc. Where do ISPs get their bandwidth and who do they pay for it?


Even the big ones like comcast go to upper level carriers like Tata. The home isp's only serve the last mile. Except for fios.

And some of the home isp's don't even own all of their networks, and lease parts from other companies.
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Old 12-23-10, 08:26 AM   #149
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
It's the lack of a need for regulation that is the issue.

For every so-called 'conservative' who whines and cries about 'regulations!', and pines for 'free market!', there is a person who is ignorant(or at least in blind ideological self delusion) about what caused almost all such regulations - the avarice and corruption of corporations.

The FCC only got involved in this because of, and after, years of attempts by greedy, corrupt telco monopolies to fuck up the internet and screw American citizens. Citizens trying to stop this crap and KEEP an unregulated and 'open' internet - which has been the largest single engine of capital growth in the last 15 years - had the FCC as the only recourse. Microsoft, Amazon, Ebay, Facebook, MySpace, etc, all paid lawyers to fight this years back, and time after time found out what decades of corruption and bribery by the telcos in our Congress have accomplished. They could not stop this stuff via legislation or in court(ahhh the 'independent' judiciary). The end result of the greed of the telcos will ruin the internet in the US, and will be the reason for the international community to decouple with the US on control of such. Therefore what we invented and paid for will be lost as a US-controlled entity over this ultimately.

The funny thing is, those telcos overcharge so much already on both ends of the internet. They are raking in the cash. I'll not go into usage metrics and the like but it would blow your mind what the margins are on this stuff. It's nothing more than avarice that is causing this. Avarice emboldened by the power of the monopolies that have been allowed to occur in the big rectangle.
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Old 12-23-10, 08:42 AM   #150
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post
I guess we can count "4G" wireless (even though 4G and 3G are meaningless terms). I guess I can either get cable, DSL or if I live in one of 8 cities in Califoria (there are other cities that have it, but just an example of how limited the option really is): wireless coverage from clear. I forgot about Verizon or Sprint. Of course with Verizon or Sprint you have a cap each month and speeds that rival DSL speeds from 10 years ago. If you are on 3G w/ clear you have a 5GB cap (but can pay like $.05/MB over the cap). The fact of the matter is that we don't have a lot of high speed internet choices in this country.
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