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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 04-07-10, 11:09 AM   #51
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

Reading the comments here and over at slashdot there's a lot of chicken little going on. I'm still close to the fence on NN myself. I'm not fully convinced federal regulations are necessary or that they won't preemptively kill innovative ISP solutions or competition that could benefit consumers.
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Old 04-07-10, 03:25 PM   #52
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Originally Posted by Birrman54 View Post
You all realize that Google is larger than AT&T, right? That they're already looking to expand into wired and wireless internet services anyway? Google isn't even alone - new LTE satellite networks are being launched by companies completely independent of the traditional providers. Why do you think AT&T or Verizon will respond to this competition by alienating their customer base with more fees and limited access?
You do realize that there are free alternatives to Microsoft software, right? and that there's tons of personal computing options out there? and that there are many more ISPs than the big companies?

But the average person doesn't know or comprehend these things. If they did, these companies would not have the powerful monopolies that they do.

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As soon as any ISP begins to limit internet services, because of throttling or blocking or whatever, they will lose market share. Their blocks will be subverted by proxy servers and other packet tricks. To imagine that without net neutrality ALL ISPs will collude to completely destroy free speech on the internet is laughably conspiratorial.
You have no idea how the internet works, do you?
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Old 04-07-10, 03:50 PM   #53
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Old 04-07-10, 03:53 PM   #54
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Originally Posted by Superboy View Post
You do realize that there are free alternatives to Microsoft software, right? and that there's tons of personal computing options out there? and that there are many more ISPs than the big companies?

But the average person doesn't know or comprehend these things. If they did, these companies would not have the powerful monopolies that they do.



You have no idea how the internet works, do you?
If I don't know how the internet works, you clearly don't know what a monopoly is.
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Old 04-09-10, 01:00 PM   #55
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

i think this will have no effect long term. we're in the midst of a revolution in wireless technology and in a few years it won't matter that Comcast, Verizon, Time Warner or Cablevision have a wired monopoly in an area. 3g/LTE wireless service will become cheap enough that a lot of people will dump wired internet like people are starting to dump land lines.

My AT&T wireless is already twice as fast as DSL most times. in a bad signal area I'm at the speed of the average ADSL service. T-Mo has HSPA+ in a few markets and Clearwire is offering 1.5Mbps wireless service for $30 a month. and the prices will drop over time. later this month Apple will start shipping the 3G iPad for $30 a month with no contract service. Expect other wireless data plan service prices to drop
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Old 04-09-10, 01:32 PM   #56
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

Understanding the difference between intra-city WAN services like wireless, and getting data between cities, states, and thus nations on fiber backbones that are mostly owned by - wait for it - Comcast, Verizon, AT&T, and Time Warner in the US, is something that is going to have to be understood to form an opinion.

The 'last mile' service is inconsequential. Be that cable, DSL, wireless(radio or microwave), fiber optic, DS1, DS3, etc, etc. I know the founder of Clearwire btw... I used to do business with them.

You have to LEAVE that city and state to do anything on the internet, and if the path OUT of that city and state is crippling or outright preventing traffic, the internet as we know it no longer exists. There just aren't many people who really understand this issue.
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Old 04-09-10, 01:36 PM   #57
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

Contrary to popular belief, there are actually a fair number of people not named Dr Mabuse that have some understanding of the issues involved.
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Old 04-09-10, 02:55 PM   #58
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Originally Posted by WallyOPD View Post
Contrary to popular belief, there are actually a fair number of people not named Dr Mabuse that have some understanding of the issues involved.
Yeah no shit. I actually am hanging on every word the Dr says, but the way he keeps repeating "there are very few people who truely understand" is patronizing and annoying. Hey Doc, on behalf of the entire DVDTalk community let me be the first to formally appoligize to you: I am truely sorry you have to have these conversations with us pleabiens.
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Old 04-09-10, 03:06 PM   #59
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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I am truely sorry you have to have these conversations with us pleabiens.
truly

plebeian

I'm sure you knew that.
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Old 04-09-10, 03:16 PM   #60
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

This really sounds fucked up. I hope the ISP companies don't win this battle.
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Old 04-09-10, 03:51 PM   #61
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]



Okay, apologies all around. I could and should have worded things differently.

Obviously someone did have to found www.savetheinternet.com years back, and many large companies have been fighting it for years. So yeah, there are are obviously many people who understand the matter.

People in the US... a lot of people would benefit from having access to more accurate information let's say . As evidenced by posts and opinions all over the internet for years, and in this thread. I've started forum threads on this topic since 2003/2004, and have noticed one thing uniformly: most people simply don't get it(that doesn't change it being a jackass move to point it out repeatedly I guess). Including on supposedly 'techie' forums like Anandtech and the like. You get all manner of mistaken notions that this is about political ideology due to that type of propaganda about the issue. It's about 'the FCC trying to control the internet' or 'businesses not being allowed to operate freely'. Various notions that if you switch from DSL to cable, or cable to wireless, you're now on a 'different' internet that the tiered model won't affect. That innovation or competition will somehow overcome the monopoly of intercity and interstate fiber backbones(much of it buried along the railroad tracks, hence making the national 'big rectangle'), etc. Over the years the same stuff is posted.

The companies trying to take over the internet take advantage of this confusion, and deliberately encourage the confusion in many ways.
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Old 04-09-10, 04:30 PM   #62
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
Yeah no shit. I actually am hanging on every word the Dr says, but the way he keeps repeating "there are very few people who truely understand" is patronizing and annoying. Hey Doc, on behalf of the entire DVDTalk community let me be the first to formally appoligize to you: I am truely sorry you have to have these conversations with us pleabiens.
I just assumed he was referring to those who didn't know all about the issue. Those of us that do had nothing to fear from his exclusionary rhetoric.
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Old 04-09-10, 05:07 PM   #63
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

So what is net neutrality? Is it where Democrats get to post as much on the net as Republicans, or the Republican messages will be filtered out?
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Old 04-09-10, 05:21 PM   #64
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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So what is net neutrality? Is it where Democrats get to post as much on the net as Republicans, or the Republican messages will be filtered out?
NOTICE:This message by user JasonF has been deemed insufficiently neutral and has been removed from the internet.
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Old 04-09-10, 05:22 PM   #65
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

We can only hope!
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Old 04-09-10, 05:24 PM   #66
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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So what is net neutrality? Is it where Democrats get to post as much on the net as Republicans, or the Republican messages will be filtered out?
Real answer: to oversimplify, ISPs want to be able to charge for "priority access" to their networks. So if Microsoft pays AT&T for priority access and Google does not, if you are an AT&T customer, your Bing searches will go really fast and your Google searches will go really slow.
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Old 04-09-10, 06:07 PM   #67
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Real answer: to oversimplify, ISPs want to be able to charge for "priority access" to their networks. So if Microsoft pays AT&T for priority access and Google does not, if you are an AT&T customer, your Bing searches will go really fast and your Google searches will go really slow.
This is what the 'tiered internet' model is, to be accurate. That's not 'Net Neutrality' You left out the part where they will just block access to sites they want to and several other issues. But that's a fair overview. They will start a bidding war for access to the interstate fiber optic trunks. This will effectively change the entire nature of the internet. The 'internet millionaire' will be thing of the past, because you can't start a Twitter, or Amazon, or a Google when not only do you have to buy computer, come up with the programming and software, buy your internet access, etc. Then you have to try and outbid multi-billion dollar companies to get on the interstate fiber backbone.

'Net Neutrality' is the way the internet works now. If Google pays millions for high speed access, and you pay for 4 megs a second access, you and Google exchange data over the links you pay for at the speeds you pay for. This is how the internet has always worked. Telco companies make a nice profit in this model too.

They want more control and more money, which greed, avarice always does.
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Old 04-09-10, 06:10 PM   #68
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
Understanding the difference between intra-city WAN services like wireless, and getting data between cities, states, and thus nations on fiber backbones that are mostly owned by - wait for it - Comcast, Verizon, AT&T, and Time Warner in the US, is something that is going to have to be understood to form an opinion.

The 'last mile' service is inconsequential. Be that cable, DSL, wireless(radio or microwave), fiber optic, DS1, DS3, etc, etc. I know the founder of Clearwire btw... I used to do business with them.

You have to LEAVE that city and state to do anything on the internet, and if the path OUT of that city and state is crippling or outright preventing traffic, the internet as we know it no longer exists. There just aren't many people who really understand this issue.

And the new trend is companies like google and other Internet destinations laying direct circuits to the ISP's and telecom carriers so that the traffic doesn't really go to the Internet.
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Old 04-12-10, 06:59 PM   #69
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
This is what the 'tiered internet' model is, to be accurate. That's not 'Net Neutrality' You left out the part where they will just block access to sites they want to and several other issues. But that's a fair overview. They will start a bidding war for access to the interstate fiber optic trunks. This will effectively change the entire nature of the internet. The 'internet millionaire' will be thing of the past, because you can't start a Twitter, or Amazon, or a Google when not only do you have to buy computer, come up with the programming and software, buy your internet access, etc. Then you have to try and outbid multi-billion dollar companies to get on the interstate fiber backbone.

'Net Neutrality' is the way the internet works now. If Google pays millions for high speed access, and you pay for 4 megs a second access, you and Google exchange data over the links you pay for at the speeds you pay for. This is how the internet has always worked. Telco companies make a nice profit in this model too.

They want more control and more money, which greed, avarice always does.
The way the internet works now is a pretty solid execution of the Coase theorem, almost to a T.
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Old 04-13-10, 08:51 AM   #70
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
This is what the 'tiered internet' model is, to be accurate. That's not 'Net Neutrality' You left out the part where they will just block access to sites they want to and several other issues. But that's a fair overview. They will start a bidding war for access to the interstate fiber optic trunks. This will effectively change the entire nature of the internet. The 'internet millionaire' will be thing of the past, because you can't start a Twitter, or Amazon, or a Google when not only do you have to buy computer, come up with the programming and software, buy your internet access, etc. Then you have to try and outbid multi-billion dollar companies to get on the interstate fiber backbone.

'Net Neutrality' is the way the internet works now. If Google pays millions for high speed access, and you pay for 4 megs a second access, you and Google exchange data over the links you pay for at the speeds you pay for. This is how the internet has always worked. Telco companies make a nice profit in this model too.

They want more control and more money, which greed, avarice always does.
Is there any evidence that the telcos have actually done any tiering here yet? I have heard fears of this for many years now, but no one has actually shown that it ever happens here. That isn’t to say the fear is unfounded, but it does seem overstated.
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Old 04-13-10, 11:35 AM   #71
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

For the first time I can recall they actually had a lively debate on this issue on TWIT this week, because somehow a guest got on that was opposed to adopting NN regulations. That guest was Brian Brushwood and he took a libertarian approach to the issue and made several good points. It starts about 31:30 into the episode if anyone is interested.

Leo Laporte also mentioned that he went to an Electronic Frontier Foundation event and the speaker said that even on the EFF board they were split on the issue.
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Old 04-13-10, 12:38 PM   #72
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Leo Laporte also mentioned that he went to an Electronic Frontier Foundation event and the speaker said that even on the EFF board they were split on the issue.
[Dr. Mabuse]The fools![/Dr. Mabuse]


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Old 04-13-10, 01:48 PM   #73
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]



EFF is worried about the government intrusion issue posed by the FCC getting involved. Some of them apparently believe the corporations changing and censoring the internet is better than the even the slightest involvement of the FCC. That group tends to rationalize the type of changes the corporations will pull off because it's convenient to their viewpoint.
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Old 04-13-10, 11:58 PM   #74
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post


EFF is worried about the government intrusion issue posed by the FCC getting involved. Some of them apparently believe the corporations changing and censoring the internet is better than the even the slightest involvement of the FCC. That group tends to rationalize the type of changes the corporations will pull off because it's convenient to their viewpoint.
its sad how they simply refuse to let go of their monopolistic control of the market rather than simply change their business model.

the same thing happened when the record player was invented; bands honestly thought no one would pay to hear live music anymore. and the VHS tape. and the DVR. and the CD-R. And the MP3 player. the internet isnt threatening their business, they just refuse to see the potential of it.

teired internet simply wont work. innovation will grind to a halt and ultimately you'll see the big internet companies go down in flames, large corporations will no longer need IT services so the big IT companies will go down in flames, and as a result, worldwide business will stagnate. I guess all of that is better than the government gaining more control of the internet. After all, with a large resource like the internet, privatization will always benefit the public. just like it did with utilities in California.
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Old 05-06-10, 02:30 PM   #75
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re: FCC to enact "Net Neutrality" [UPDATE: NOT!]

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FCC outlines new 'third way' internet regulatory plan, will split access from content
By Nilay Patel posted May 6th 2010 1:53PM
Feature
The FCC's plan to rework how it regulates the internet just got a lot more solid today, as the agency officially announced its "third way" approach to classifying broadband services and opened it up for public comment. We've broken the entire thing down for you -- we're not kidding when we say this will affect how the internet works for all of us in the future, so grab a snack and head past the break for the whole story.

Here's the deal: in 2002, the FCC decided to classify internet access as a Title I "information service," which meant that the agency didn't have specific and direct authority to regulate providers -- instead, it relied on its "ancillary authority," which basically boils down to "we're allowed to do anything reasonable to accomplish the goals Congress lays out for us." After the FCC told Comcast to stop filtering BitTorrent, Comcast sued, and in early April the court ruled that the FCC's ancillary authority wasn't strong enough to impose restrictions on ISPs -- a decision that was obviously a huge blow to net neutrality efforts. However, the conventional wisdom was that Comcast had won itself a battle but would ultimately lose the war in spectacular fashion, since the obvious move for the FCC would have been to reclassify broadband access as a Title II "telecommunications service," which is the same way the agency regulates wireline phones, and ISPs would have suddenly found themselves in a regulatory nightmare. However, the FCC's charter says it's supposed to regulate the internet as little as possible, and a Title II approach seemed like a major overreaction with severe consequences for everyone involved. Hence, the "third way" announced today.

Got all that? Okay, so here's the "third way" plan FCC chairman Julius Genachowski and FCC general counsel Austin Schlick laid out this morning. It's what you might call a hybrid approach: the FCC will say that broadband transmissions -- the flow of data -- are subject to Title II regulations, while broadband "computing functionality" -- the data itself -- remains at most under Title I. (Interestingly, this idea of splitting broadband into components comes from Justice Scalia, who is not the first person who comes to mind when discussing Obama administration policy decisions.) What's more, the FCC says it plans to officially excuse broadband transmissions from many Title II regulations -- it only wants to impose specific provisions of Title II. According to Austin Schlick, that list could be just six provisions long:

* Sections 201, 202, and 208: Together, these provisions "forbid unreasonable denials of service and other unjust or unreasonable practices," and major players like AT&T, Comcast, Sprint and Verizon have all voiced support of them in the past.
* Section 254: This is the Universal Service provision, and it requires the FCC to pursue policies that provide "[a]ccess to advanced telecommunications and information services . . . in all regions of the Nation." Since broadband transmission would be classified as a telecommunications service under the new plan, the FCC could promote universal broadband access under this provision -- something both AT&T and the cable industry have argued for in just the past few months.
* Section 222: This section would require service providers to protect confidential information they receive while providing service.
* Section 255: This section says service providers must make their services and equipment accessible to people with disabilities, unless it's not "reasonably achievable."


Now, those are just the six on the list right now -- the FCC could decide it needs more or less as this process wears on, although it's promising not to regulate pricing. In any event, it's clear that the agency's goal is to impose as little regulation as possible while still trying to achieve the basics of net neutrality, and there's some serious precedent for success with that approach, as it's essentially the same way the FCC regulates wireless services. According to the Commission, this plan would avoid red tape, allow ISPs to operate under clear federal rules without worrying about inconsistent state laws, and generally be amazing and legally-rock solid. It's definitely a good sales pitch, but the next step is for the FCC to invite public comment and have its commissioners vote, and a lot can happen between now and then, so we'll be tracking this one closely.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/05/06/f...lan-will-spli/
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