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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 02-19-09, 08:56 AM   #51
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

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Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Exactly. Unless we are nuked and can go to war with a country with nukes of our own, and have the whole affair done in 6 months, there is no way to win a war in this day and age.
Ummm...

That wasn't my point at all kvr. Did you read my post just a few above the one you quoted?

Am I missing something in your point?
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Old 02-19-09, 09:03 AM   #52
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

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I could easily misremember this stuff, but didn't Iraq have AQ training facilities, etc? From my view the only real difference between the two was the location of OBL, which I think Obama will backtrack on his importance over the next few years.
Not as far as I remember. The only Islamic extremism I recall is the accusation that Saddam gave money to Palestinian suicide bombers' families.
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Old 02-19-09, 09:06 AM   #53
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

I believe there once was AQ training facilities in Iraq, but they had long since been abandoned.

Saddam didn't want AQ stirring up trouble in Iraq. He cracked down on them.
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Old 02-19-09, 09:08 AM   #54
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

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Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Exactly. Unless we are nuked and can go to war with a country with nukes of our own, and have the whole affair done in 6 months, there is no way to win a war in this day and age.
I'm trying to find the negative here.

Sure, we ended the war with Japan by firebombing hundreds of thousands of civilians and we even dropped two atomic bombs on them. I'm not sure you can equate ANY foe since 1945 with what we faced then.

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Old 02-19-09, 09:10 AM   #55
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

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I could easily misremember this stuff, but didn't Iraq have AQ training facilities, etc? From my view the only real difference between the two was the location of OBL, which I think Obama will backtrack on his importance over the next few years.
This link seems to be specious at best... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_...n_and_al-Qaeda
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Old 02-19-09, 09:15 AM   #56
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

You guys don't like my threads I guess. I had an Afghanistan the Forgotten War thread and a comment on the Kyrgyzstan base closing in the Russia thread.
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Old 02-19-09, 09:17 AM   #57
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

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You guys don't like my threads I guess. I had an Afghanistan the Forgotten War thread and a comment on the Kyrgyzstan base closing in the Russia thread.
You should make that post here in a thread that people like.

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Old 02-19-09, 09:19 AM   #58
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

Oh sure, flavor of the month.

Sonofabitch.
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Old 02-19-09, 09:22 AM   #59
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

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You guys don't like my threads I guess. I had an Afghanistan the Forgotten War thread and a comment on the Kyrgyzstan base closing in the Russia thread.
I did my best to steer them back to your thread. I even cited it in my first post.

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Old 02-23-09, 10:08 AM   #60
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090223/...pe/us_pakistan


Times: US advisers training Pakistani troops

WASHINGTON – U.S. military advisers, mostly Army Special Forces soldiers, are training Pakistani troops in their fight against al-Qaida and the Taliban, The New York Times reported Sunday.

The secret U.S. task force provides the Pakistanis with intelligence and advises them on combat tactics, but does not participate in combat itself, the Times reported, citing anonymous U.S. military officials.

Pakistani army officers said last year that the Pentagon had sent 32 Americans to train senior personnel of the paramilitary Frontier Corps in the northwestern part of the country, adjacent to Afghanistan.

On its Web site Sunday, the Times reported that the effort was larger and more ambitious than previously acknowledged, involving more than 70 U.S. advisers, including combat medics, communications experts and other specialists.

A commando unit within the Frontier Corps has used information from the Central Intelligence Agency and other sources to kill or capture as many as 60 militants in recent months, the newspaper said.

Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, the chief of Pakistan's army, is visiting Washington this week as the White House and the Pentagon review U.S. strategy in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
---------------

Good idea? Bad idea?
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Old 02-23-09, 10:28 AM   #61
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

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Good idea? Bad idea?
Interesting. I'm sure the "advisers" aren't involved in any firefights, are they? I hope Pakistan realizes how dangerous these militants in their frontier region really are. The recent allowance of Sharia law doesn't seem to show that, but maybe they're playing both sides.
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Old 02-23-09, 10:53 AM   #62
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

From what I can tell there has never been any negative consequences of training middle eastern forces so this should turn out well.
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Old 02-23-09, 10:59 AM   #63
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

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From what I can tell there has never been any negative consequences of training middle eastern forces so this should turn out well.
I'm having trouble thinking of where that has caused us any negative consequences. Can you help me out?
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Old 02-23-09, 11:07 AM   #64
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

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I'm having trouble thinking of where that has caused us any negative consequences. Can you help me out?
I assume you're kidding, but perhaps spainlinx0 is thinking of the Mujahideen in Afghanistan. The CIA trained them in paramilitary warfare and after they defeated the Soviets they splintered off into groups like the Taliban and Al-Qaida.

There's risk involved with "training" Pakistani forces (they learn a lot of our paramilitary tricks and could leak that info to the bad guys), but you also have US boots on the ground. You can say whatever you want about rules of engagement, but advisers might be gathering intel and possibly killing militants and that's a good thing.
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Old 02-23-09, 11:10 AM   #65
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

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I assume you're kidding, but perhaps spainlinx0 is thinking of the Mujahideen in Afghanistan. The CIA trained them in paramilitary warfare and after they defeated the Soviets they splintered off into groups like the Taliban and Al-Qaida.
Aiding the downfall of the Soviet Union seems like an acceptable result. And the alternative if we had allowed the Soviet Union to successfully expand into Afghanistan? No Taliban or Al-Qaeda?
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Old 02-23-09, 11:17 AM   #66
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

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Aiding the downfall of the Soviet Union seems like an acceptable result. And the alternative if we had allowed the Soviet Union to successfully expand into Afghanistan? No Taliban or Al-Qaeda?
Good point and to go a step further and to paraphrase Congressman Charlie Wilson, "We fucked up the end game" in Afghanistan. Forgetting about the country the day the Soviets left may have been the real rise of Al-Qaida and the Taliban.
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Old 02-23-09, 11:19 AM   #67
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

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Forgetting about the country the day the Soviets left may have been the real rise of Al-Qaida and the Taliban.
Quite true.

Much as we forgot about the Soviet Union after their downfall.
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Old 02-23-09, 11:24 AM   #68
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

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I assume you're kidding, but perhaps spainlinx0 is thinking of the Mujahideen in Afghanistan. The CIA trained them in paramilitary warfare and after they defeated the Soviets they splintered off into groups like the Taliban and Al-Qaida.

...
Except for the fact that the majority of early taleban leaders were school teachers, along with a few Pashtun fighters, and the overwhelming bulk of its force were kids in Pakistan when the US and the CIA were training anybody in Afghanistan, I agree. And I forget that the mujahideen that the CIA trained and supplied were largely who the taleban fought against.




So yes, some were fighters marginally trained and "supplied" by the US, but the truth is they would have existed in entirely the same manner even without any US support. Though as X correctly pointed out, perhaps the Soviets would have entertained other ideas if that were the case.
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Old 02-23-09, 11:25 AM   #69
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

I don't think they have forgotten about us though. Interesting that Afghanistan can now be used as a tool against us. We are clearly vulnerable economically, largely aided by Al Qaeda's attack on our soil several years ago. And now Russia is meddling with us in Afghanistan. We may very well be repelled without accomplishing a thing since the ousting of the Taliban 7(?) years ago. We are also at risk of not even maintaining the dominant relationship, with Russia moving in as the prime candidate. Someone, somewhere, is grinning.

I wish Obama would do more to outline the objectives of this war that he is commitimg troops for. Everyone's minds are on the economy. I think he prefers it to stay that way.
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Old 02-23-09, 11:30 AM   #70
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

If you don't trust the Pakistanis, I believe there is considerable risk.

I'd like to see a poll among Pakistanis to see what percentage favored a return to power of the Taliban is Afghanistan.

What do you believe - 90-95%?
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Old 02-23-09, 11:40 AM   #71
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

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If you don't trust the Pakistanis, I believe there is considerable risk.

I'd like to see a poll among Pakistanis to see what percentage favored a return to power of the Taliban is Afghanistan.

What do you believe - 90-95%?
The better, and far more pressing, question would be how many Pakistanis favour the taleban gaining control in Pakistan. Afghanistan is becoming, somewhat, irrelevant.
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Old 02-23-09, 11:43 AM   #72
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

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Except for the fact that the majority of early taleban leaders were school teachers, along with a few Pashtun fighters, and the overwhelming bulk of its force were kids in Pakistan when the US and the CIA were training anybody in Afghanistan, I agree. And I forget that the mujahideen that the CIA trained and supplied were largely who the taleban fought against.




So yes, some were fighters marginally trained and "supplied" by the US, but the truth is they would have existed in entirely the same manner even without any US support. Though as X correctly pointed out, perhaps the Soviets would have entertained other ideas if that were the case.
Do you think we should have been more involved in the post Soviet era in Afghanistan?
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Old 02-23-09, 11:51 AM   #73
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

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Do you think we should have been more involved in the post Soviet era in Afghanistan?
Yes, to a point. Though I am not certain how feasible it realistically would have been to do so.
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Old 02-23-09, 01:27 PM   #74
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

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The better, and far more pressing, question would be how many Pakistanis favour the taleban gaining control in Pakistan. Afghanistan is becoming, somewhat, irrelevant.
I wouldn't shed any tears.

I bet India wouldn't either.
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Old 02-23-09, 01:34 PM   #75
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Re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama -- but the debate is still about Iraq.

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I wouldn't shed any tears.

I bet India wouldn't either.
The last thing India wants is for the Taliban or a similar organization to come to power in Pakistan.
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