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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 08-29-07, 05:33 AM   #1
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One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part VI

Please continue the conversation here...
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Old 08-29-07, 11:36 AM   #2
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The last few posts from the previous thread.....

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...la-home-center

Quote:
L.A. police to stop impounding cars of unlicensed drivers

Officers will impound unlicensed drivers' cars under some conditions only, pending a legal assessment of a ruling in an Oregon case.

The Los Angeles Police Department has imposed a moratorium on impounding the vehicles of unlicensed drivers amid concerns that the practice may be unconstitutional, officials said Tuesday.

The decision touches on what has long been a hot-button issue, because many unlicensed drivers who have their cars towed are illegal immigrants who cannot get driver's licenses.

Immigrant rights groups and some legislators for years have sought legislation granting illegal immigrants some form of driver's licenses -- but the bills have been repeatedly rejected, most recently by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger. Former Gov. Gray Davis signed such a bill during the recall campaign against him, but the Legislature repealed the law at Schwarzenegger's urging soon after he ousted Davis.

LAPD officials said they decided to stop impounding until the city attorney's office provides a final legal assessment of a 2005 decision by the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals involving an Oregon impound case.

The department's change comes after some civil rights groups as well as L.A. politicians called on the city to consider suspending impounding because of the Oregon ruling. The LAPD impounds about 40,000 cars a year from unlicensed drivers, though officials don't know how many of them are illegal immigrants.

But many other agencies -- including the L.A. County Sheriff's Department and California Highway Patrol -- continue to impound cars of unlicensed drivers, with some counties concluding that the appeals court ruling does not apply to them.

In a memo to all the LAPD's commanding officers, Assistant Chief Earl Paysinger directed that officers no longer impound vehicles in stops when the only offense was driving without a license. Drivers will continue to be cited for driving without a license. But the vehicle will be impounded only when it cannot be driven away by a licensed driver or parked legally and secured.

The moratorium met with immediate criticism Tuesday from some who see it as giving lawbreakers a free ride.

Councilman Dennis Zine, a reserve and former LAPD motorcycle officer, said the city could be liable if that unlicensed driver gets behind the wheel of that vehicle again and someone gets hurt. "You are jeopardizing public safety," Zine said.

Councilman Jose Huizar, who in June called on city leaders to study the Oregon ruling, said the city needs to follow the letter of the law, even if it's unpopular.

"According to the case, you cannot constitutionally impound a car because the driver does not have a driver's license. So I sought thatclarification," Huizar said. "I wanted to ensure the city complies with the law."

In Miranda vs. City Cornelius, the 9th Circuit found that impounding a legally parked vehicle was unreasonable seizure of private property under the 4th and 14th amendments when there was no reasonable public safety justification.

The Oregon case involved Jorge Miranda, who was teaching his unlicensed wife, Irene, to drive his vehicle. An officer saw the woman driving and made a traffic stop in the couple's driveway. The officer cited the husband for allowing an unlicensed driver to operate his car and cited the wife for driving without a license. Police impounded the vehicle for 30 days.


Other law enforcement agencies have reviewed the case and concluded that they can continue impounding cars.

The Alameda County district attorney's office found the case involved "special circumstances" -- that is, the driver was actually in his driveway when the impound occurred -- and therefore was different from police pulling over a car on the street.

But state Sen. Gil Cedillo (D-Los Angeles) includes information on his website about how unlicensed drivers can fight impounds, citing the Oregon case. The information is presented in the form of a card that can be copied and carried in a driver's wallet or purse.

"Bill Bratton is a great police chief," said Cedillo, praising the LAPD action. "We just want people to follow the law."

Paysinger said the LAPD decided to impose the moratorium after discussing the issue with the city attorney's lawyers. He said the attorneys told the department that they believed there were potential constitutional issues with the impounding of cars from unlicensed drivers.

City attorney spokesman Frank Mateljan said the LAPD asked his office to examine the issue. City prosecutors, he added, didn't suggest the moratorium.
What a bunch of shit. I was hoping Oregon would be better than CA in regard to illegal immigration issues.....I guess not.

Let's not stop there, lets just treat them like international diplomats and make them immune from prosecution, I mean.....it really isn't that far off.

-p
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Old 08-29-07, 02:13 PM   #3
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There is one perfect solution to immigration that everyone can support.

Kick out all the men but let the women stay. The pro immigration groups get 50% of what they want, and the anti immigration groups get 50% of what they want. The USA gets a new gene pool of hot latin women.

Once the immigration issue is settled, build a wall and post the national gaurd with bullets to patrol.
 
Old 08-29-07, 02:24 PM   #4
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I can dig it!

For as much crap as the wall idea gets, it has been shown...TO WORK! Wall + Guards = HUGE drops in illegals getting into the country. I'd love an economist to work up the comparison of the 'cost' of the wall vs. the negative economic impact of illegal immigrants....which wouldn't even include the ID theft, gang members, smugglers, etc.

-p
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Old 08-29-07, 03:00 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pedagogue
I can dig it!

For as much crap as the wall idea gets, it has been shown...TO WORK! Wall + Guards = HUGE drops in illegals getting into the country. I'd love an economist to work up the comparison of the 'cost' of the wall vs. the negative economic impact of illegal immigrants....which wouldn't even include the ID theft, gang members, smugglers, etc.

-p
The problem is that illegal immigration is usually lumped into immigration, i.e. legal immigration, so we never get a clear picture of the impact.

It would be interesting to know the percentage of illegal aliens that attempted to follow the proper channels to enter the US legally before resorting to entering illegally. I imagine it is a very low percentage since many illegals feel it is their right to be here anyway.
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Old 08-29-07, 05:17 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wishbon3
It would be interesting to know the percentage of illegal aliens that attempted to follow the proper channels to enter the US legally before resorting to entering illegally.
For that matter, just what is the procedure for a person (unskilled laborer type, not college student of tech worker) to legally enter the US? Based on most people's experiences with government bureaucracy (think DMV or getting a passport), I'm guessing it's a maze of forms, lines, and roadblocks that quickly discourages people from doing the "right" thing.
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Old 08-29-07, 05:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
For that matter, just what is the procedure for a person (unskilled laborer type, not college student of tech worker) to legally enter the US? Based on most people's experiences with government bureaucracy (think DMV or getting a passport), I'm guessing it's a maze of forms, lines, and roadblocks that quickly discourages people from doing the "right" thing.
IIRC, An H-2B visa has to be sought by the employer who has a job to offer. It has to be filed at least 60 days before its issued but not longer than 120 days.
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Old 08-29-07, 05:51 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pedagogue
What a bunch of shit. I was hoping Oregon would be better than CA in regard to illegal immigration issues.....I guess not.

Let's not stop there, lets just treat them like international diplomats and make them immune from prosecution, I mean.....it really isn't that far off.

-p
This is bullshit. How about the fact the the LAPD seizes the cars of street racers and auctions them off? Is that Constitutional? They already get treated like diplomats. Many Mexican Nationals commit crime here and jump their border never to be seen again. The best is what is happening to Dog the Bounty Hunter. Our government should tell Mexico to get bent. Why aren't they?

Mexico who demands we don't build a wall so that they can continue to watch their most useless citizens leap frog over here. That wall should look like the fucking Great Wall of China. Land mines all around it. Unemployment a problem? Not by the time our government gets done filling the top portion of the wall with enhanced border security. I can think of a dozen people off the top of my head who would want a job shooting at illegal aliens attempting to cross the U.S. border. I would go apply.
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Old 08-29-07, 05:51 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
For that matter, just what is the procedure for a person (unskilled laborer type, not college student of tech worker) to legally enter the US? Based on most people's experiences with government bureaucracy (think DMV or getting a passport), I'm guessing it's a maze of forms, lines, and roadblocks that quickly discourages people from doing the "right" thing.
Quote:
In 2006, a total of 1,266,264 persons became LPRs of the United States. The majority of new LPRs (65 percent) already lived in the United States when they were granted lawful permanent residence. Nearly two-thirds (63 percent) were granted permanent residence based on a family relationship with a US citizen or legal permanent resident of the United States. The leading countries of birth of new LPRs were Mexico (14 percent), China (7 percent) and the Philippines (6 percent).
http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/s...accessible.pdf

The backdoor system seems to be working rather well.
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Old 08-29-07, 06:09 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyronin
IIRC, An H-2B visa has to be sought by the employer who has a job to offer. It has to be filed at least 60 days before its issued but not longer than 120 days.
This looks like what you're talking about.

http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/h-2b.cfm

So, an employer has to initiate the process by offering employment to the alien worker, who I'm assuming is not supposed to be in the country at this point. If the alien is not in the country, how does the employer offer a job?

I'm beginning to see how it's easier to simply jump the border.
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Old 08-29-07, 06:22 PM   #11
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I advocate nothing, we don't need them, and I am sick of people who claim that we do. We have prisons full of people who have been locked up for non-violent crimes. They can go pick lettuce and get their sentences reduced. While they are at it, they can pick some of their own food and save us the estimated $38,000 a year it costs the American taxpayer to take care of them.

Maybe we should all move to Mexico and then they will follow us back.
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Old 08-29-07, 06:34 PM   #12
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That's funny you bring that up, because I read something recently about the Mexican Government supplying schools in Los Angeles with books that include their version of our U.S. History. They claim we stole everything from them and that the U.S. flag is the enemy flag. Why would we even allow books like that in our schools?
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Old 08-29-07, 07:02 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by SmartisSexy
That's funny you bring that up, because I read something recently about the Mexican Government supplying schools in Los Angeles with books that include their version of our U.S. History. They claim we stole everything from them and that the U.S. flag is the enemy flag. Why would we even allow books like that in our schools?
I'm afraid I'd have to see a non-Newsmax link on that one to believe it.

(not accusing you of anything, but you can't always believe what you read).
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Old 08-29-07, 07:07 PM   #14
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Here's a link, since some people can't be bothered...

Mexico's Undiplomatic Diplomats

Quote:
Immigrants have often tried to hold on to their native traditions, but not until recently did anyone expect American schools to help them do so. And it is hard to see how studying Mexican history from a Mexican perspective helps forge an American identity. The Mexican sixth-grade history book, for example, celebrates the “heroism and sacrifice” of the Mexican troops who fought the Americans during the Mexican-American war. But “all the sacrifices and heroism of the Mexican people were useless,” recounts the chronicle. The “Mexican people saw the enemy flag wave at the National Palace.” The war’s consequences were “disastrous,” notes the primer: “To end the occupation, Mexico was obligated to sign the treaty of Guadeloupe-Hidalgo,” by which the country lost half its territory.

This narrative is accurate and rather tame by Mexico’s usual anti-American standards. But a student in the U.S. could easily find himself confused about his allegiances. Is his country Mexico or the U.S.? Study exercises that include discovering “what happened to your territory when the U.S. invaded” don’t clarify things. The textbook concludes by celebrating Mexican patriotic symbols: the flag, the currency, and the national anthem. “We love our country because it is ours,” the primer says.
The whole article is a rather telling recount of Mexico's Diplomatic Corps nefarious actions.
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Old 08-29-07, 07:36 PM   #15
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I had this long response, but then I thought, crap, I've said this before.
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Old 08-29-07, 08:39 PM   #16
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Sounds like the Koch Company had a good thing going until the crack-down. They should be thankful for the profits they racked up during those two years when they were paying below average wages to these illegal workers.

Oh, and I guess a bucket of Kentucky Fried Chicken is going to shoot up to $60 because paying legal American citizens will be far more costly.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070829/...immigration_dc

Quote:
U.S. immigrants worry as families face deportation
Quote:
FAIRFIELD, Ohio (Reuters) - When 300 U.S. immigration agents surrounded the chicken processing plant where Danny Alvarez-Reyes works, he did the only thing he could think of: he gave his coat to a scared friend determined to hide in the walk-in freezer.

Alvarez-Reyes, 27, works legally at the Koch Food plant near Cincinnati and could only watch as co-workers were rounded up during a raid on Tuesday that netted 160 illegal workers.

But after an exhausting day trying to help his friends' families, Alvarez-Reyes was still worried about the five co-workers he watched hide in the giant freezer.

"I don't know if they ever got out, that's all I want to know," he said, gathering with friends at a neighborhood taco restaurant to rehash the trauma of the day and trade rumors about who will be deported.

A day after one of the largest workplace immigration raids in Ohio, the Hispanic community in Cincinnati's suburbs was scrambling to track down missing family members and arrange care for children whose parents were caught up in the raid.

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement said the raid was the culmination of a two-year investigation of Koch Foods, suspected of knowingly hiring undocumented workers. The company said it was cooperating.

"Koch Foods is committed to complying with all immigration laws, and we look forward to resolving this matter quickly," it said in a statement.

Illegal immigration is hotly debated in the United States, home to some 12 million illegal immigrants. A Zogby International poll in June found 46 percent of Americans believed illegal immigrants were a burden on the country, while 22 percent saw them as a benefit.

Still, only 37 percent viewed deportation as a solution, while about one in four said workers should be allowed to stay if they have jobs and pass background checks.

Last year, ICE agents deported 183,431 people amid stepped-up raids in workplaces and homes nationwide.

NO SYMPATHY

Butler County Sheriff Richard Jones, one of the country's most outspoken opponents of illegal immigration, has lobbied Washington to crack down on employers who hire illegal workers -- jobs he believes should go to Americans.

"I've been saying for two and a half years 'We're coming, ... don't hire illegals, don't violate the law,"' Jones said after the raid. "I personally have no sympathy for you whatsoever. None. Zero."


While rumors flew among Hispanics that some had been hurt or even frozen to death during the raid, ICE spokesman Greg Palmore said there were no significant injuries and that workers who hid in freezers had quickly been found.

A spokesman at Mercy Hospital in Fairfield said six people had been brought in with minor injuries including frostbite, and that all but one had been treated and released.

Palmore said everything possible had been done to ensure children would not be left unattended if parents had been arrested, and ICE officials said some workers may be released for humanitarian reasons if caregivers could not be found.

Still, many families said they'd been torn apart.

Guadalupe Santos, 40, said his eldest daughter, Rose Alba, 20, was swept up in the raid. He's been caring for her 6-month-old son, Christopher, ever since.

"We are frantic with worry," said Santos, who came to the United States almost seven years ago from Mexico City with his wife and three daughters. "We don't know where she's being held, or if we'll get access to her. We don't know if we should get a lawyer."

Santos, who is a cook at a Chili's restaurant, said fear had gripped the Hispanic community.

"Everyone saw the raid on television, there is widespread fear, and now nobody wants to go out onto the street."

Enrique Ventura, 20, is in a similar bind. He hasn't heard from his wife Angelica, 19, since she left for work at the Koch Food plant on Tuesday morning. The couple has a 4-month-old son.

"I stopped by her work to collect her and she wasn't there. Some people told me she'd been arrested by the immigration police and taken to the detention center," he said.

Ventura was considering returning to Guatemala.

"I am devastated," he said. "If she is back in Guatemala, then I would have to go too, as I have no one to help raise him. The baby needs his mother."
Wish I had two years to break the laws of this country, make a shitload of money by doing so, and then get away with it by paying a small fine. (If this company even ends up getting fined.)
 
Old 08-29-07, 08:55 PM   #17
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Quote:
The Mexican American Heritage by Carlos M. Jimenez. A textbook written by the author, a Los Angeles high school teacher, who was frustrated that no texts of this kind were in existence previously. - 1992
http://www.life.arizona.edu/diversity/library_books.asp
Quote:
Written by a Los Angeles history teacher frustrated by the lack of culturally relevant materials, this book covers some of the most interesting events in the history of Mexico and the heritage of Mexican Americans.
http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal...accno=ED368520
Quote:
The Mexican American Heritage is a high school Chicano Studies textbook used in the Pueblo School District 60, and in other school districts, which can easily be adapted to the grade level of your students.

Jimenez, Carlos M. The Mexican American Heritage. TQS Publications, 1994.
Student Textbook designed as an introduction to events in Mexican American heritage.
http://almaproject.dpsk12.org/units/pdfs/SiSePuede.pdf
Quote:
Teaching and contextually rich curricula at the primary and secondary levels set the foundation for life long learning...

Curricula modifications need to be made to include the following:
-an elective course offered in all middle and high schools which incorporates a textbook such as Mexican American Heritage by Carlos Jimenez
http://www.senate.gov/~bingaman/valor.pdf
Quote:
972 J564m 1994 (Modern Language Stacks)
Jiménez, Carlos. The Mexican-American Heritage. Berkeley: TQS, 1994.

The author presents his view on the kind of continuing struggle for Mexican-Americans from the pre-Columbian high developed civilizations of the Mayans, Aztecs, Toltecs when the native peoples developed agricultural and hunting systems, architectural styles, philosophical concepts, medical system, astronomy, and mathematical concepts. Then, Jiménez draws on the Spanish Colonization, the birth of the Mestizo, Mexico's Independent War, the Mexican Revolution (1910), and the migration of millions of Mexicans into the Southwestern United States. Lastly, the author discusses the Mexican-American inception and contact in the United States, the rise of the farmworker's movement, and their struggle for a better life and proper representation in modern society.
http://www.library.uiuc.edu/mdx/latinoweb/history.htm
Quote:
The Santa Barbara School District in California has a Chicano Studies has a textbook called “The Mexican American Heritage”. This book was written by East Los Angeles teacher Carlos Jimenez.

This book is paid for by American tax dollars. It cites no references or footnotes. It is provided as settled fact. This book teaches the separatist ideas of MEChA, a mythical nationalist idea that does not now nor has ever existed. The bottom line is that the book is 100% opinion and not based in anything of remote value to education.
http://www.crotchetyoldbastard.com/oxygenthief.html
Quote:
In an hispanic Studies textbook, The Mexican American Heritage by East Los Angeles high school teacher Carlos Jimenez, Aztlán is depicted on page 84 in a redrawn map of Mexico and the United States, showing Mexico with one third more territory. On page 107, Jimenez states, “Latinos are now realizing that the powers to control Aztlán may once again be in their hands.”

The textbook teaches high-school students that Mexico is supposed to regain the states of Colorado, California, Arizona, Texas, Utah, New Mexico, Oregon and parts of Washington and that they rightly belong to the “mythical” homeland of Aztlán.

The book contains no references or footnotes and teaches separatism, victimization and nationalism, while promoting an open border policy.
http://www.sierratimes.com/cgi-bin/i...m=23&topic=568
Quote:
Although we may find ourselves on different sides of the border culturally and ethnically, we are one people. Someday Aztlan could become the model for the world as a place where different kinds of people can accomplish much if they but take the time to learn about each other and to listen to different points of view.
-Carlos Jimenez, The Mexican American Heritage
http://sonic.net/~doretk/Issues/96-0...ccupation.html
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Old 08-29-07, 09:01 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmartisSexy
I advocate nothing, we don't need them, and I am sick of people who claim that we do. We have prisons full of people who have been locked up for non-violent crimes. They can go pick lettuce and get their sentences reduced. While they are at it, they can pick some of their own food and save us the estimated $38,000 a year it costs the American taxpayer to take care of them.
In Los Angeles the freeways are overcrowded, the schools are overcrowded, the hospitals are overcrowded (or closing), the prisons are overcrowded, etc. due to this large influx of illegal immigrants. The city is bathed in graffiti and overrun by MS13. It's getting to the point that I would gladly pay a tax out of my weekly paycheck to help support and build businesses, homes, and schools in Mexico and other Latin American countries if these illegal immigrants would just stay the fuck in their home countries and live and work there. And I bet a U.S. dollar goes further in Mexico than in does in the United States. We could easily trim that $38,000 a year it's costing us now to a much lower number.

It's getting mighty crowded and dangerous around this part of country.

And with this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070829/...xican_trucks_9

Quote:
WASHINGTON - The Teamsters Union said Wednesday it will ask a federal appeals court to block the Bush administration's plan to allow Mexican trucks to carry cargo anywhere in the United States.

The union said it has been told by officials in the Transportation Department's Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration that the first Mexican trucks will be coming across the border on Saturday.

Teamsters leaders said they planned to seek an emergency injunction Wednesday from the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco.

"What a slap in the face to American workers, opening the highways to dangerous trucks on Labor Day weekend, one of the busiest driving weekends of the year," said Teamsters President Jim Hoffa.

Joining the Teamsters in seeking the emergency stay were the Sierra Club and Public Citizen. "Before providing unconditional access throughout the country to tens of thousands of big rigs we know little to nothing about, we must insure they meet safety and environmental standards," Sierra Club executive director Carl Pope said.

The Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, in a statement, said: "we believe this lawsuit is without merit and that our program will benefit consumers by reducing the costly practice of requiring all cross-border shipments to be hauled by three separate trucks operated by three different drivers and provide U.S. trucking companies the opportunity to expand their business into our nation's third largest trading partner."

The Bush administration said last week it would start the cross-border program once the Transportation Department's inspector general certifies safety and inspection plans.

Leslie Miller, a Teamsters spokeswoman, said attorneys for the federal truck safety agency advised the union's lawyers that they expect to get that certification on Friday. She said the Teamsters also were told by the agency attorneys that limited authority for trucks to begin crossing the border will be approved Saturday.

The Teamsters got a powerful labor ally in its protest.

AFL-CIO president John Sweeney said in a news conference "the real issue there is the situation of safety and how this involves the delivery of food or product of Mexico to United States and vice versa.

"It's an ongoing dispute and we don't think the Mexican government is enforcing their laws in that situation," said Sweeney in support of the Teamsters, who left the AFL-CIO to join a rival labor federation in 2005. "I think the Teamsters are taking the lead in this situation and rightly so deserve support."

Supporters of the plan say letting more Mexican trucks on U.S. highways will save American consumers hundreds of millions of dollars.

Labor and driver-owner groups have been fighting the measure — part of the 1994 North American Free Trade Agreement — since it was first proposed, saying the program will erode highway safety and eliminate U.S. jobs.

A one-year demonstration project would allow 100 Mexican motor carriers full access to U.S. roads. It can begin as soon as the inspector general certifies that safety and inspection plans and facilities are sufficient to ensure the Mexican trucks are as safe as U.S. trucks.

Since 1982, Mexican trucks have had to stop within a buffer border zone and transfer their loads to U.S. trucks.
It's only going to get more crowded and more dangerous. Sheesh!
 
Old 08-29-07, 09:02 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyronin
Here's a link, since some people can't be bothered...

Mexico's Undiplomatic Diplomats



The whole article is a rather telling recount of Mexico's Diplomatic Corps nefarious actions.
In the future I will definitely chain myself to the computer to await all responses to something I post. I do not recall where I originally read it, but here is something.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_4_mexico.html
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Old 08-29-07, 09:03 PM   #20
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Dear people who want mexican textbooks.....MOVE.TO.MEXICO!!

Seriously....this is the united states, not Mexico North.

-p
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Old 08-29-07, 09:08 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by pedagogue
Dear people who want mexican textbooks.....MOVE.TO.MEXICO!!

Seriously....this is the united states, not Mexico North.

-p
It should be that simple. I fail to understand why we haven't established English as our national language. This is the future:

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Old 08-29-07, 09:19 PM   #22
crazyronin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmartisSexy
In the future I will definitely chain myself to the computer to await all responses to something I post. I do not recall where I originally read it, but here is something.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_4_mexico.html
You just managed to post the exact same link as in my post. Bravo
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Old 08-29-07, 09:21 PM   #23
SmartisSexy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyronin
You just managed to post the exact same link as in my post. Bravo
You are under the impression that I read your link
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Old 08-29-07, 11:20 PM   #24
DVD Polizei
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The Bush administration said last week it would start the cross-border program once the Transportation Department's inspector general certifies safety and inspection plans.

I feel safer already. Not.
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Old 08-30-07, 01:39 AM   #25
SmartisSexy
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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
The Bush administration said last week it would start the cross-border program once the Transportation Department's inspector general certifies safety and inspection plans.

I feel safer already. Not.
I think it goes without saying at this point that anyone appointed by Bush is going to botch things horribly.
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