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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 06-26-07, 11:01 AM   #26
kvrdave
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I don't actually believe that you can win the hearts and minds of most of them, nor do I believe you can have an exchange of ideas when they will just fatwah you ass for drawing a cartoon or writing a book (was it a minority of Islam that was outraged by those?).

I think that mentality is exactly the same as the mentality that got us into Iraq. We didn't figure in the "culture" enough. There is no seperation of church and state in Islam.

The only way for this to get "fixed" is for moderate Muslims to take care of their extremist "minority." I don't believe they have the will, nor do I think they heavily oppose them. Nor do I think it is a minority.
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Old 06-26-07, 11:03 AM   #27
classicman2
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My solution (not a good one):

1. Kick the living hell out of those that attempt to do this country harm, with concentration of their leaders.

2. Stay the hell out of their fighting between themselves. Let them solve their problems.
 
Old 06-26-07, 11:10 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classicman2

2. Stay the hell out of their fighting between themselves. Let them solve their problems.
That seems to be a double edged sword though because sometimes when we don't get involved in these issues it's said the US doesn't care and people get pissed off at us because of that.


Overall I think what's going on between Gaza and the West Bank is going to be a good indicator of what's going to happen in the larger Muslim world.
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Old 06-26-07, 11:15 AM   #29
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Trying to win the hearts and minds of extremists is useless. You need to support the moderates. However, it's difficult to do that when you consistently show so little understanding of their history, religion and culture.
 
Old 06-26-07, 11:20 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classicman2
My solution (not a good one):

1. Kick the living hell out of those that attempt to do this country harm, with concentration of their leaders.

2. Stay the hell out of their fighting between themselves. Let them solve their problems.
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Old 06-26-07, 11:23 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Altimus Prime
I wouldn't go to an Islamic country if you paid me a billion dollars.
I'd love to go to Istanbul.
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Old 06-26-07, 11:27 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wendersfan
I'd love to go to Istanbul.

Yep. I'd love to go to Turkey, Egypt, Morroco, Dubai, etc.
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Old 06-26-07, 11:32 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eXcentris
Trying to win the hearts and minds of extremists is useless. You need to support the moderates. However, it's difficult to do that when you consistently show so little understanding of their history, religion and culture.
And when the moderates don't seem to want to be associated with you.

And why do we always have to understand them but don't expect a little understanding in return?
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Old 06-26-07, 11:41 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wendersfan
I'd love to go to Istanbul.
I lived in Istanbul quite a few years ago.

I'd also love to return to the UAE next late February or early March. I'd like to see the running of the World Cup again.
 
Old 06-26-07, 11:47 AM   #35
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Couldn't pay me a million dollars to visit any Islamic country either. And I guess I have nothing to add to this discussion, because while I feel individual Muslims deserve human decency and respect, I think most "Islamophobia" is very well-deserved.
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Old 06-26-07, 11:48 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kvrdave
And why do we always have to understand them but don't expect a little understanding in return?
Silly kvrdave You should know this is because Americans are always in the wrong and the ones who need to change their ways...
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Old 06-26-07, 12:05 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eXcentris
Trying to win the hearts and minds of extremists is useless. You need to support the moderates. However, it's difficult to do that when you consistently show so little understanding of their history, religion and culture.


Americans don't care about other countries' culture, religion, history, etc. Just what Paris Hilton or [insert movie star here] is doing this week and who is going to win American Idol.

Look, I'd love to see countries converted to secular democracies. As an agnostic/atheist skeptical type, I vastly prefer secular democracy. Vastly.

It's a very unrealistic goal, though, given that a vast majority of people there don't actually want secular democracy. At best they want democracy so they can oppress the minority.

The best you're going to get out of most of these countries would be a pseudo-democracy that is very corrupt and probably oppresses various minorities. Like a lot of 3rd world 'democracies'.

I'm with classicman. Enforcing democracy at the point of a gun is nigh-impossible without a few decades of iron-fisted military occupation - and I don't think the benefits of that are worth the costs in human lives (both ours and theirs). Our efforts could be best spent on crushing any terrorist criminals who attempt to harm us and leaving the folks that want to kill each other alone.

Democracy needs to come from within, not from without.
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Last edited by GreenMonkey; 06-26-07 at 12:17 PM.
 
Old 06-26-07, 12:10 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by GreenMonkey
Americans don't care about other countries' culture, religion, history, etc. Just what Paris Hilton or [insert movie star here] is doing this week and who is going to win American Idol.
Which country should we emulate with how they care about other countries' culture, religion, etc?
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Old 06-26-07, 12:13 PM   #39
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Maybe we hold our selves to a certain standard no matter what other countries/cultures do
 
Old 06-26-07, 12:18 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venusian
Maybe we hold our selves to a certain standard no matter what other countries/cultures do
That's kooky talk.
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Old 06-26-07, 12:29 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kvrdave
Which country should we emulate with how they care about other countries' culture, religion, etc?
It think it is a general problem, but Americans aren't exactly trailing the pack as far as 1st world countries that are ignorant of foreign events, geography, etc.
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Old 06-26-07, 12:39 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kvrdave
Which country should we emulate with how they care about other countries' culture, religion, etc?
Vatican City

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Old 06-26-07, 12:51 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nemein
IMHO it's not nearly vocal or stringent enough. Part of that is the way Islam is organized. There are very few recognized leaders in the world and the majority of those are on the extremist's side. So far we've seen very little IMHO of the Islamic world out protesting what the extremists are doing. Sure there's some lip service occasionally, but if the extremists can organize tens of thousands of people to protest cartoons why is it so hard for the moderates to organize hundreds of thousands to protest the actions of the extremists (if it is as we are being lead to believe the majority of Muslims are moderates)?
I agree with this point. I don't want to make it seem as if the United States is 100% to blame for militant Islamic jiihad, nor do I want to absolve us of any guilt. But the major impetus for change needs to come from the Muslim people. I agree that there needs to be more moderate Muslim leaders speaking out -- the vast majority of Muslims don't want war, or bloodshed, or terrorist bombings. There is nothing inherently violent or evil in Islam. But in an environment where the loudest voice wins the argument, moderate Muslims tend to get shouted out a bit too often.
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Old 06-26-07, 12:57 PM   #44
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I've posted in the past that the so-called "small minority" isn't really that small when so many Moslems living in the UK thought suicide bombing civilian targets was justified. That is in a country that is trying to "understand" them and bending over backwards(or forwards grabbing their ankles) so as not to offend them.
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Old 06-26-07, 01:02 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by NCMojo
the vast majority of Muslims don't want war, or bloodshed, or terrorist bombings. There is nothing inherently violent or evil in Islam.
I would love for this to be true. Yet their doctrines and holy books, as commonly interpreted by their own peoples around the world, promote death for non-believers and a culture of martyrdom and terrorism. When not in power, they are against everyone else. When in power, they turn against themselves.
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Old 06-26-07, 01:09 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by adamblast
I would love for this to be true. Yet their doctrines and holy books, as commonly interpreted by their own peoples around the world, promote death for non-believers and a culture of martyrdom and terrorism. When not in power, they are against everyone else. When in power, they turn against themselves.
I agree with this sentiment completely. And yet, I would argue that we should still allow Christians to live in our society.
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Old 06-26-07, 01:11 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by NCMojo
I agree with this sentiment completely. And yet, I would argue that we should still allow Christians to live in our society.
Ah, the real reason for you posting this thread comes out: so you can attack Christians. Have fun attacking them.
But remember, in the Koran, it is specifically spelled out that true moslems must kill and persecute non-moslems. Then those true moslems are also free to persecute the moslem "hypocrites"(the ones who don't participate in the killing and persecution of non-moslems.)
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Old 06-26-07, 01:12 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCMojo
I agree with this sentiment completely. And yet, I would argue that we should still allow Christians to live in our society.
We seem to understand that blowing up people is not what God wants.

But, in the interest of Christian bashing, bring forth the Old Testament quotes.
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Old 06-26-07, 01:14 PM   #49
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Wow, it took 46 posts to get to the standard Christian deflection? You guys are slipping.
 
Old 06-26-07, 01:19 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCMojo
I agree with this sentiment completely. And yet, I would argue that we should still allow Christians to live in our society.
as others said, this was expected, but it doesn't go along with the post you quoted:

Quote:
Yet their doctrines and holy books, as commonly interpreted by their own peoples around the world, promote death for non-believers and a culture of martyrdom and terrorism.
martyrdom is the only thing that is commonly interpreted from Christian scriptures.
 
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