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Old 04-28-08, 02:36 PM   #126
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Showing ID - what a concept!

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Old 04-28-08, 09:21 PM   #127
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http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110008630

July 10, 2006

Photo ID laws are considered one of the most basic and necessary election safeguards by a host of countries including Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Britain, India and South Africa.
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Old 04-30-08, 08:03 AM   #128
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A timely reminder from Justice Stevens
Supreme Court's voter ID ruling underscores high stakes for new president

By Tom Curry
National affairs writer
MSNBC
updated 7:34 p.m. ET, Tues., April. 29, 2008

WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court’s decision Monday upholding Indiana’s voter photo identification law was another timely reminder, if any were needed, of how big the stakes are in November’s election.

The next president is likely to have the chance to nominate at least one justice.

The author of Monday’s decision, Justice John Paul Stevens, age 88, will almost certainly retire in the next few years.

The next oldest justice, 75-year-old Ruth Bader Ginsburg, appointed by President Clinton, dissented from Monday’s ruling.

Democrats are concerned that the Indiana voter identification law — and ones like it in other states — will make it harder for them to get the votes they need to elect the next president.

“These (voter photo ID) laws are no more than a cynical attempt to suppress turnout among groups who tend to vote for candidates who prioritize working families' issues, including lower income Americans and people of color,” said AFL-CIO president John Sweeney, a member of the Democratic National Committee.

Looking for 'a new Supreme Court'
Asked Tuesday whether he could think of a practical step the Democratic Congress could take to offset the high court ruling, Senate Democratic Whip Dick Durbin, D- Ill., joked, “A new Supreme Court!”

That won’t be possible just yet.

What made Monday’s ruling an even more bitter pill for Democrats to swallow was that it was written by Stevens, usually a member of the court's liberal wing.

Many Democrats had considered Stevens a hero, partly for his opposition to the death penalty and partly for his unusually harsh dissenting opinion in the court’s 5-4 Bush v. Gore decision, which essentially handed the 2000 election to President Bush.

"I was very deeply disappointed with Justice Stevens," said Sen. Charles Schumer, D- N.Y. Tuesday, reacting to the Indiana ruling.

Durbin said Tuesday that he was surprised that Stevens, a fellow Illinoisan from Chicago, wrote the decision. “I’d like to sit with him sometime and go through his reasoning,” Durbin said.

Vote fraud could decide a close election
Stevens’ reasoning was this: “Not only is the risk of voter fraud real but ... it could affect the outcome of a close election,” he wrote. The need to have photo identification is not “excessively burdensome” on any group of voters, he said, using the language of a 1974 precedent.

The Bush appointees to the high court helped form Monday’s 6-3 majority, an illustration of Bush’s deep impact on the court.

Once in office, partly as a result of the Bush v Gore decision, Bush was able to name two justices, Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Samuel Alito, to the high court.

Roberts and Justice Anthony Kennedy joined Stevens’ opinion in the Indiana case. Justice Antonin Scalia wrote a concurring opinion, joined by Alito and Justice Clarence Thomas.

Other examples of Bush's lasting effect on the court:

- Last week’s ruling, written by Roberts, to uphold Kentucky’s lethal injection method of carrying out its death penalty.

- The decision Alito wrote last year holding that plaintiffs charging that they’ve been victims of pay discrimination must file their claim within 180 days of the alleged violation. Last week, the Senate failed to muster the 60 votes effectively needed to overturn Alito’s ruling.

If O'Connor were still on the court
For now, opponents of the Bush nominees are looking back in chagrin at what they’ve lost.

Simon Heller, the legal director of the Alliance for Justice, an advocacy group that opposed the Alito and Roberts nominations, said, “If we still had Justice (Sandra Day) O’Connor on the court instead of Justice Alito, we might have had a different lineup” in the Indiana decision.

“Without Alito and Roberts, I think the court might have come out differently in this case," Heller said. "Justice Stevens might have been persuaded by Justices Breyer, Ginsburg and Souter. Justice O’Connor was providing a fifth vote (for the liberal wing), but with Justice O’Connor having been replaced by the extremely conservative Justice Alito, it’s a very different court now.”

“We’re going to pay the price of this Supreme Court for a generation,” Schumer lamented Tuesday.


The New York Democrat, the man in charge of Democrats’ efforts to gain a 60-seat filibuster-proof Senate majority this fall, put the issue of judicial nominees more ruefully right after the 2006 elections.

“My greatest regret in the last two years is that we didn’t stop (Supreme Court Justice Samuel) Alito," he said. "You don’t filibuster unless someone is way out of the mainstream…. Alito clearly seemed to me to be that.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24356530/

Wow, talk about sour grapes.
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Old 04-30-08, 08:15 AM   #129
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080428/...cotus_voter_id

Twenty-five states require some form of ID

So 25 states require voter ID.

Can those of you who oppose voter ID laws find even one real world example of someone who was prevented from voting because of such laws?

Here's a real world example of voter fraud on a major scale. This is from the 2004 election results in Milwaukee. I have bolded several different real world examples of voter fraud. Some of these fraudulent voters gave fake names when they voted. Other fraudulent voters gave the real names of other people who were registered but did not vote. This is why we need voter ID laws.

Quote:
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=324933

Inquiry finds evidence of fraud in election

Cast ballots outnumber voters by 4,609


By GREG J. BOROWSKI

Investigators said Tuesday they found clear evidence of fraud in the Nov. 2 election in Milwaukee, including more than 200 cases of felons voting illegally and more than 100 people who voted twice, used fake names or false addresses or voted in the name of a dead person.

Officials said charges will be filed in coming weeks, as individual cases are reviewed and more evidence is gathered.

Nonetheless, it is likely that many - perhaps most - of those who committed fraud won't face prosecution because city records are so sloppy that it will be difficult to establish cases that will stand up in court.

And even now, three months after the investigation, officials have not been able to close a gap of 7,000 votes, with more ballots cast than voters listed. Officials said the gap remains at 4,609.

U.S. Attorney Steve Biskupic likened it to trying to prove "a bank embezzlement if the bank cannot tell how much money was there in the first place."

Biskupic announced the preliminary findings at a news conference, along with Milwaukee County District Attorney E. Michael McCann, who is also overseeing the joint inquiry.

Tuesday's announcement comes after a Journal Sentinel investigation that found widespread problems with the election in the city, including that the election totals themselves were not double-checked by city and county panels charged with doing so.

Some of the problems identified by the newspaper, such as spotty compliance with procedures to verify same-day registrants, are broader and are the subject of a statewide audit approved by lawmakers.

Tuesday's announcement could breathe new life into the Republican-backed photo ID debate, which did not survive a veto from Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle and might instead eventually go to voters as a proposed constitutional amendment.

A photo ID requirement might have caught some of the problems highlighted in Tuesday's preliminary report. It notes cases of people voting in the name of a dead person or as someone else. Investigators located some people listed as voting who said they did not vote.

In other cases, according to Tuesday's report, people "registered and voted with identities and addresses that cannot in any way be linked to a real person."


Officials did not identify how many fit each category.

Investigators have focused only on the City of Milwaukee in reviewing duplicate-voting offenses. Officials said Tuesday, though, that they would expand the review of felons voting illegally to Milwaukee suburbs.

The newspaper found at least 278 felons who voted statewide, though only a partial review could be completed because of a state law that bars public access to birthdates of voters.
Tracking illegal votes

The fraud investigation has focused on the more than 70,000 people who registered to vote on election day, not the other 200,000-plus voters. That is because registration cards provide a paper trail, which officials said would be stronger in court than computerized records.

It is unclear what identification these 100-plus people provided at the polls to register. State law allows utility bills and leases to be used or for one voter to vouch for another.

Biskupic, appointed by a Republican, and McCann, a Democrat, said they had pledged to avoid partisanship in the matter and avoided questions relating to reforms and proposals.

The announcement, though, prompted renewed calls for photo ID from Republicans, while Doyle pushed again for his set of reforms, which he said would do more to tackle specific problems.

For instance, investigators found "deputy registrars" working for registration drives had submitted at least 65 fake names, though no one apparently voted from the addresses. Doyle's plan would prohibit offering financial incentives, such as paying by the signature, in such drives.

In Madison, Doyle said a photo ID requirement is unnecessary. He urged prosecution of any offenders.

"I don't think many people, if they know there are real consequences for voting twice, and that there have been prosecutions for voting twice, are going to do it because the risk of being caught and the penalty far outweighs the advantage of casting one extra vote," Doyle said.

In response to the findings, Sen. Joe Leibham (R-Sheboygan) said as early as next month he would advance a bill similar to the one vetoed by Doyle. It also could be part of the recommendations from a Legislative Council task force that has been meeting on reforms.

While Doyle has argued the measure would make Wisconsin one of the strictest states in the nation, very few other states allow same-day registration.

Assembly Speaker John Gard (R-Peshtigo) said if Doyle again vetoes the requirement, he would move to make it part of the state constitution, a two-year process that requires a statewide referendum but does not require the approval of the governor.

"The next presidential election in Wisconsin, I guarantee you'll need a photo ID to vote," said Gard, who is running for the U.S. House. "I'll get this done if it is the last thing I do around here."

U.S. Rep. Mark Green, a Green Bay Republican who has introduced a national photo ID requirement, said: "People are having their faith in the election system shaken. This news will make it much, much worse."

Green is running for governor, as is Milwaukee County Executive Scott Walker, who also backs a photo ID requirement.

"Clearly, there is proof that fraud took place in the November 2 election," Walker said.

Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett attended the news conference, an unusual occurrence for an announcement by prosecutors.

From the start, Barrett said he welcomed the inquiry but also noted at several points in recent months that he had seen no hard evidence of fraud in the system.

He acknowledged Tuesday the findings pointed to fraud and said again "any individual who committed fraud (should) be prosecuted."

Asked if a photo ID requirement would have made a difference, he said it would not have prevented felons from voting and would have had little impact on other problems.

Biskupic said there was no indication of a widespread conspiracy to commit voter fraud, or of any knowledge or involvement by poll workers or any other city officials.

The city's record-keeping problems meant investigators from the FBI and Milwaukee Police Department have logged more than 1,000 hours reviewing the 70,000 same-day registration cards, including 1,300 that could not be processed because of missing names, addresses and other information.

Indeed, about 100 cards described as "of interest to investigators" cannot be located, officials said. And within the past few weeks, police found a previously lost box of the cards at the Election Commission offices.

Biskupic and McCann said they remain troubled that three months after the investigation began that city officials have been unable to account for a gap of about 4,600 votes, with more ballots counted than people listed as voting.

That reflects a new assessment of the 7,000-vote gap first identified by the Journal Sentinel. Although city election officials initially blamed postelection data entry for the flaws, the newspaper found gaps existed at dozens of wards, with more votes counted than people tallied in log books.

The gap has been narrowed to 4,600 by a closer review of election day logs and other records, which authorities placed off-limits to the newspaper during the investigation.

McCann said: "I will not be satisfied if we cannot uncover that - what the explanation is, or a reasonable explanation."

In all, about 277,000 people in Milwaukee voted in the election. Thus, the cases identified in the investigation constitute a small portion of the total vote.

The findings, however, carry extra significance in a state that had an 11,000-vote margin in the presidential contest, one of the closest in the nation.

Democrat John Kerry topped President Bush in Wisconsin, mainly because of Kerry's margin in Milwaukee and Madison.

Had a larger state, such as Ohio, gone the other way, it could have led to a Florida-style recount here that would have turned on many of the issues that instead were left for the newspaper to uncover in its extensive investigation.

The federal-local investigation was launched Jan. 26, a day after the Journal Sentinel reported that some 1,200 votes in the November election came from invalid addresses.

Among other findings, some 1,300 same-day registration cards were processed by poll workers who allowed people to vote even though the cards were incomplete. Some 548 had no address listed and 48 gave no name - yet the person was allowed to vote. Another 141 listed addresses outside the city.


The newspaper was denied access to those cards, on the recommendation of the city attorney's office, citing the inquiry.
Felons voted

Reviewing information it had access to, including a computerized list of people recorded as voting, the newspaper identified at least 278 felons who illegally voted statewide, though the vast majority came from within the city.

The real number is likely far higher because the newspaper was able to review only about 38% of the 2.98 million people who voted in the state because of the law that bars access to birth dates. The newspaper was able to link various databases and compare them to a state list of felons on probation or parole at the time of the election.

In response to the newspaper's reports, Doyle and many Republican lawmakers said that rule should be rescinded.

In Wisconsin, only felons who have completed probation or parole are allowed to vote.

Biskupic and McCann said these cases can be hard to prosecute, since it must be established that the felon knew he or she was not allowed to vote and voted anyway.

Thus it is unclear how many of the 200 felons investigators had identified will ultimately be charged.

The newspaper also identified numerous cases in Milwaukee where the same person appears to have voted twice, though that analysis was hampered by major computer problems at the city.

Those problems, which city officials labeled a "glitch," meant hundreds upon hundreds of cases where people are incorrectly listed as voting twice. These are in addition to cases of double voting identified by investigators.

The investigators have been focusing on 100-plus cases in this area. The cases take on many forms.

For instance, non-residents used non-existent city addresses to vote in Milwaukee. Officials are checking to see if they also voted elsewhere, such as from their actual address.

Officials indicated some of the fraud cases could be handled at the federal level because the election involved federal candidates, while other cases could involve state charges.

McCann and Biskupic asked anyone with information on possible fraud call the election task force at (414) 935-7802.

In March, Lisa Artison, a Barrett appointee, resigned as executive director of the Election Commission. She had been under fire for her handling of the election.

Sharon Robinson, head of the Department of Administration, has been overseeing the office and is chairing a city task force reviewing the election. Its report could be issued this month.

Also, check this out:


Quote:
http://www.adversity.net/florida/Fra...ida_Felons.htm

As many as 3,750 convicted felons may have illegally voted for Gore in Florida. Palm Beach County refused to purge convicted felons from their voter roles.

As many as 75% of illegal 'felon' votes cast in Florida were cast by registered Democrats.

Hundreds of felons cast votes illegally (12/1/00 - The Miami Herald)

STORY: "Since 1868, it has been illegal for felons to cast ballots in Florida.

"At least 445 Florida felons voted illegally on Nov. 7, casting another cloud over a disputed presidential election already mired in legal challenges, a Herald investigation has found.

"The tainted votes -- found in a review of nearly half a million votes cast in 12 Florida counties -- provide evidence that the presidential race was influenced by thousands of ineligible voters. Nearly six million voters in Florida's 67 counties cast ballots.

Two Key Counties: "The majority of the illegal votes -- 330 -- were cast in Palm Beach and Duval counties, which decided not to participate in the statewide effort this year to purge felons, dead people and double registrants from the rolls ... most other counties -- including Miami-Dade and Broward" followed state law in deleting thousands of ineligible voters (felons and dead people) from the voter rolls.

Legal Challenges: "The lapses in Palm Beach and Duval counties could become significant if Democrats win any of their legal challenges and take the narrow lead away from Republican Texas Gov. George W. Bush. Nearly 75 percent of the illegal ballots discovered by The Herald were cast by registered Democrats.

"The votes could be seized upon by the Bush campaign to argue that a large number of illegal votes were probably cast for his opponent, outweighing the effect of any recount. ``It's a very powerful argument,'' said Robert Jarvis, a law professor at Nova Southeastern University.

"Since 1868, it has been illegal for felons to cast ballots in Florida ... The provision has prompted a federal lawsuit by civil rights groups who allege it is discriminatory against blacks.

"The Herald found 62 robbers, 56 drug dealers, 45 killers, 16 rapists and seven kidnappers who cast ballots. At least two who voted are pictured on the state's online registry of sexual offenders.

"The Herald review included counties where voter lists could be obtained -- about 8 percent of the 5.9 million votes cast on Nov. 7. It encompassed all votes cast in Palm Beach and Pasco counties, most votes cast in Duval County, and only absentee votes in Miami-Dade, Broward, Lee, Leon, Hillsborough, Clay and the Panhandle counties of Escambia, Okaloosa and Bay.

"To find felony voters, The Herald compared a list of voters in those counties with a Department of Corrections database listing felons who had served at least a year in prison. If the pattern found in the study is the same statewide, more than 5,000 felons likely cast illegal ballots."

(Excerpted from the Miami Times story 12/1/00 by Times reporters David Kidwell, Phil Long, and Geoff Dougherty.)


So the evidence shows that voter fraud is real, and it's carried out mostly by the party that opposes voter ID laws.

Meanwhile, there's no evidence to show that voter ID laws prevent people from voting in the 25 states that require voter ID.
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Old 04-30-08, 08:16 AM   #130
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“I’d like to sit with him sometime and go through his reasoning,” Durbin said.
I'd like to sit with Durbin sometime and go through his judicial 'philosophy.'
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Old 04-30-08, 11:36 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grundle
So the evidence shows that voter fraud is real, and it's carried out mostly by the party that opposes voter ID laws.

Meanwhile, there's no evidence to show that voter ID laws prevent people from voting in the 25 states that require voter ID.
The articles you posted in no way support the bolded language. In fact, it's particularly ironic that you point to 445 felons voting illegally in Florida in 2000, since Florida's felon list in 2000 was famously over-inclusive and is believed to have included 8,000 people who didn't belong on the list because they weren't actually felons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Central_Voter_File
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Old 04-30-08, 11:42 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonF
The articles you posted in no way support the bolded language. In fact, it's particularly ironic that you point to 445 felons voting illegally in Florida in 2000, since Florida's felon list in 2000 was famously over-inclusive and is believed to have included 8,000 people who didn't belong on the list because they weren't actually felons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Central_Voter_File


Well, here are a lot more examples. The Democrats committed massive voter fraud all over the U.S.


http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...t111000d.shtml

11/10/00 12:20 p.m.

Will Noncitizens Decide the Election? Undermining the democratic process.

By Jim Boulet Jr., executive director, English First

Americans who believe that Al Gore will graciously accept defeat should remember one thing: Al Gore helped Bill Clinton trade permanent U.S. citizenship for Democratic votes in 1996 and beyond.

A Gore reinvention of a government program called Citizenship USA has been getting a closer look of late, thanks to David Schippers's book, Sell Out. Schippers reports:

"Our sources inside the INS revealed that, in preparation for the 2000 elections, INS agents in the district offices were directed to relax the testing for English, complete every interview within twenty minutes, and ensure that all applicants pass the Civics test by continuing to ask questions until an applicant got a sufficient number right. Sometimes it was necessary to ask twenty or twenty-five questions before four or five were answered correctly."

Sell Out also includes an appendix of documents which demonstrate Al Gore's direct involvement in turning Citizenship USA into "a pro-Democrat voter mill" in which English tests were waived and criminal records of prospective citizens swept under the rug in places such as New York City, Chicago, Miami, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Houston, and Newark. (Each of these cities was located in a key battleground state during the 1996 presidential election.) Ultimately, over 1 million new citizens were naturalized in time to vote for Clinton-Gore in 1996.

In the land of "no controlling legal authority" that was the Clinton-Gore White House, the end justified any means. Accordingly, on February 15, 1996, Henry Cisneros, then Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, forwarded a memo from the California Active Citizenship Campaign to President Clinton. This memo noted: "INS inaction will deny 300,000 Latinos the right to vote in the 1996 presidential elections [sic] in California."

On March 21, 1996, a staff member of Gore's National Performance Review e-mailed a member of the Vice President's staff: "I favor drastic measures [to reduce the backlog]… If I don't get what we need, I will call for heavy artillery." One day later, he reported success in an e-mail addressed to "Albert Gore at EOP-OVP."

On March 28, Gore was sent another e-mail which complained that "we are going to have way too many people waiting for citizenship in November…. I can't make [INS head] Doris Meissner delegate broad authority to her field managers. Can you?" Gore replied the same day: "We'll explore it. Thanks."

The exploration soon ended and the government's citizenship procedures were indeed reinvented. One "obsolete regulation" that bit the dust in 1996 was the longstanding (since 1907) requirement that a prospective citizen demonstrate a knowledge of English.

A September 1996 hearing by the Congressional Committee on Government Reform and Oversight's National Security Subcommittee on "Naturalization Testing Fraud" documented that the Clinton-Gore administration looked the other way while federal contractors across the nation were fraudulently certifying English-language illiterates as having met citizenship standards.

One contractor, the Naturalization Assistance Service (NAS), conducted an estimated 200,000 tests annually. A NAS test was effectively a multiple-choice exam with test takers also asked to write a mere two sentences in English. Just one of those two sentences need be correct. Yet as ABC's 20/20 reported in 1996, the NAS English test was still too onerous for many of the people who paid to be in a NAS classroom.

A concerned NAS employee, Jewell Elghazali, complained that large batches of tests were written in identical handwriting. Ms. Elghazali was fired. Just how many more forged tests were transformed into certificates of English competence? No one will ever know.

Citizenship USA and wholesale voiding of naturalization requirements weren't the only Clinton-Gore efforts to undermine the integrity of the political process. Thanks to another Clinton-Gore program, the National Voter Registration Act of 1993, better known as the Motor Voter law, we may never know how many votes were improperly cast in the 2000 election by ineligible people.

Motor Voter was nicknamed "Auto Fraudo" because it created a series of incentives for rampant vote fraud. States were required to give voter-registration applications to anyone who applied for a driver's license or welfare benefits.

For example, in Illinois, the state's department of public health boasted in a 1995 press release that "as required by the National Voter Registration Act, WIC staff ask clients 18 years of age and older if they are registered to vote at their current address."

The voter-registration form may state that U.S. citizenship is required and may even include a notice of penalties for perjury. But these requirements are hardly likely to discourage vote fraud. (Can an illegal alien be expected to confess his ineligibility to vote to a DMV clerk?)

Motor Voter forced states with previously strict voter-eligibility requirements, like Florida and Missouri (to pick two examples not at random), to effectively accept anyone's word that they were eligible to vote.

By 1996, 45 states had complied with Motor Voter requirements. And that is when we started to hear about noncitizens illegally deciding elections. Illegal voters defeated Bob Dornan in 1996. The following year, the Miami mayor's race was overturned, also on the basis of widespread absentee-ballot fraud.

Longtime fans of Bill Buckley's writings will no doubt recall him reporting with pardonable pride that his grandfather, John Buckley, had such a strong "sense of civic obligation" that he refused to allow his death in 1904 to prevent him from adding his vote to Lyndon Johnson's 87-vote plurality in the 1948 Senate race. Thanks to Motor Voter, it looks like the problem of dead people voting is no longer confined to South Texas.

The Indianapolis Star reported on November 5: "Tens of thousands of people appear on the [Indiana] voter rolls more than once." A person need not be alive to be eligible to vote in the state: "More than 300 dead people on the rolls were discovered…. One of those registered, a South Bend woman, died in April 1998 but was recorded as voting in that fall's general election."

On October 23, John Fund presciently warned on the Wall Street Journal's Internet opinion page that "ballot-box fraud may have real impact at the polls." He noted that "47 states don't require any proof of U.S. residence for enrollment." Fund also reported that "Motor Voter has added some eight million people to the rolls."

Those 8 million voters still weren't enough for the peace of mind of the Gore campaign. In a still-developing story first reported by WorldNetDaily.com editor Joseph Farah on November 6, the California Democratic party was apparently sending mailings, complete with a "personal Voter Identification Card" to unregistered voters in the state. The letter was written in both English and Spanish. You can see a copy of the letter here. The mailing in question was received by a noncitizen who had never been a registered voter.

Janet Reno is likely to take an interest in one of the charges floating around these days. (Hint: It isn't the question of how California Democrats obtained their mailing list.) While federal law leaves a number of election decisions up to the states, challenges based on violations of voting rights are federal matters. This is the reason the NAACP has requested an investigation by Reno into Florida voting procedures.

The Reno Justice Department has a record of abusing its discretion. Floods of illegal campaign contributions by foreign nationals to various Clinton-Gore election efforts never sparked much curiosity. Yet the Justice Department was quick to invent a new violation previously unknown to voting-rights law in a 1994 bond issue vote in San Antonio, Texas. A private group had failed to provide Spanish translations of "several newsletters, door-hanger advertisements and posters" and only held one informational meeting which "included Spanish translation." The election was overturned.

I suspect that a lawsuit claiming violations of the federal Voting Rights Act is waiting in the wings should Bush be declared the winner in Florida. This suspicion was strengthened during Jesse Jackson's speech in Florida on November 9. Jackson mentioned that "we know many Haitian-Americans were denied assistance in the voting booth, which they can expect and accept by law."

The Clinton-Gore record of insisting on making omelets no matter how many eggs must be broken in the process suggests that the Gore campaign has good reason to fret over potential recounts in places other than Florida. The Bush people would do well to expand the conversation to ineligible voters nationwide, instead of allowing the Gore folks to dominate the discussion with complaints about a few votes in one Florida community. Iowa, where Gore now leads by 5,253 votes out of 1.3 million cast, and Wisconsin, where Gore is ahead by 5,921 votes out of 2.5 million cast, both deserve scrutiny.

The legitimacy of Gore's popular-vote-victory claim deserves far more attention than it has been given to date. When the question becomes, "Is it worth overturning the Electoral College just to preserve the Clinton-Gore corruption of the democratic process?" the answer should be obvious.

Last edited by grundle; 04-30-08 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 04-30-08, 11:58 AM   #133
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David Schippers is a crackpot. And you keep posting anecdotes and pretending that it constitutes rigorous analysis. I could post articles talking about caging, talking about Diebold, and on and on and on. But it would still just be a collection of anecdotes. If you wanted to say that some voter fraud is committed by Democrats, I would have absolutely no quarrel with you. Some voter fraud is committed by Democrats. Some is committed by Republicans. My sense is that the instances of voter fraud or voter suppression that would be cured by ID laws is a drop in the bucket, but whatever -- I'm in favor of anything that reduces fraud and suppression without a significant increase in the costs to the voter of exercising his or her franchise. Just don't pretend that Voter ID laws are going to magically fix everything, or that all the blame is on one side of the political spectrum.
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Old 04-30-08, 12:34 PM   #134
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As always, I agree with JasonF. There just isn't a real epidemic of voter fraud going on right now -- well, not from an individual voter perspective anyway. There's just not. You can't say that 1% of all votes cast are fraudulent -- you can't even say that 1% of 1% is fraudulent. It's a minor, minor issue at best.

So why do Republicans keep beating at this dead horse? Why do they keep trying to tighten up voting standards? Because the people most affected by these kind of restrictions -- blacks, Hispanics, the elderly, the poor -- are also the ones most likely to vote for the Democrats. Want proof? When was the last time you heard of a Republican railing against the errors and inaccuracies in electronic voting? If you want to talk about the potential for massive fraud, if you want to say that the GOP is a pillar, a bastion of integrity when it comes to voting, then you'd expect them to take the lead in making every election results 100% reliable. But that doesn't happen, whether because leading GOP contributors like Diebold make the machines, or because most of these instances of electronic fraud seem to favor the GOP candidates, I cannot say. But it's hypocritical to act indignant and say that we need to clamp down on "voting fraud" with these unnecessary voter ID acts when you ignore blatant irregularities on the electronic voting front.
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Old 04-30-08, 12:36 PM   #135
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"leading GOP contributor"?

really? numbers please.
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Old 04-30-08, 01:00 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venusian
it looks like GA is ramping up their voter education drive about voter id cards. I saw an ad for it. i thought it had been nixed

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2008/04/voter_id.html

Looks like no ID is required in the upper peninsula of Michigan and the eastern shore of Virginia.
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Old 04-30-08, 01:23 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Venusian
"leading GOP contributor"?

really? numbers please.
http://www.bradblog.com/DieboldContributions.htm

"I am committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president." -- Walden O'Dell, Chairman/CEO Diebold, fall of 2003
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Old 04-30-08, 01:30 PM   #138
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so they gave a lot of money to the GOP. I'm sure they gave some to Dems too.

Maybe it was the "leading" that surprised me. I'm guessing there are companies that give a lot more to both parties
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Old 04-30-08, 01:36 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venusian
so they gave a lot of money to the GOP. I'm sure they gave some to Dems too.
You're "sure"?:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opensecrets.org
Diebold Inc
SOFT MONEY DONATIONS: 2001-2002
(2000 DATA)

NOTE: The donations listed may be made by individuals associated with the organization as well as by the organization itself.

To Democrats: $0 (0%)
To Republicans: $100,965 (100%)

Total: $100,965
Sorry it's the most recent data I could find, but there's nothing to indicate anything than Diebold is a company that makes voting machines and is strongly in favor of the Republican Party.
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Old 04-30-08, 01:41 PM   #140
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http://www.politicalbase.com/groups/diebold-inc/13710/

Here's contributions for this year. 9% to D
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Old 04-30-08, 02:04 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venusian
so they gave a lot of money to the GOP. I'm sure they gave some to Dems too.

Maybe it was the "leading" that surprised me. I'm guessing there are companies that give a lot more to both parties
Your missing the important point -- this isn't just some random company giving money to a political party. This is one of the major companies making the machines that can easily contribute to election fraud, and they're deeply and enthusiastically in bed with the GOP. That's slightly more of a concern than some grandmother in Des Moines voting twice.

(Maybe it was my term "leading contributor" that was misleading -- I'll grant that the amount given by Diebold, et. al., is paltry compared to some other firms. Maybe I should have used the term "GOP enthusiast" to make a stronger point.)
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Old 04-30-08, 02:06 PM   #142
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Don't think I'm a Diebold supporter. I think they are crap. I think our voting machines need open source software running them
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Old 04-30-08, 03:20 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCMojo
As always, I agree with JasonF. There just isn't a real epidemic of voter fraud going on right now -- well, not from an individual voter perspective anyway. There's just not. You can't say that 1% of all votes cast are fraudulent -- you can't even say that 1% of 1% is fraudulent. It's a minor, minor issue at best.
Certainly minor if you are a Democrat. But then, I'm in a state when a Democrat became govenor after a third recount and 6,000 more votes than voters in King County. KING COUNTY!!! I don't think more than 2 could have gone to the Republican.

Minor issue.


Quote:
So why do Republicans keep beating at this dead horse? Why do they keep trying to tighten up voting standards? Because the people most affected by these kind of restrictions -- blacks, Hispanics, the elderly, the poor -- are also the ones most likely to vote for the Democrats.
I'm sure that is part of it, but they may also be opposed to voter fraud on principle. Perhaps you should ask why the Democrats are not concerned. But we both know it is because they gain votes. But that's okay, but it is wrong for the Republicans to be concerned because they lose votes.

The worst thing that could ever happen is that one have to prove they are elligible to vote.

Quote:
Want proof? When was the last time you heard of a Republican railing against the errors and inaccuracies in electronic voting? If you want to talk about the potential for massive fraud, if you want to say that the GOP is a pillar, a bastion of integrity when it comes to voting, then you'd expect them to take the lead in making every election results 100% reliable. But that doesn't happen, whether because leading GOP contributors like Diebold make the machines, or because most of these instances of electronic fraud seem to favor the GOP candidates, I cannot say. But it's hypocritical to act indignant and say that we need to clamp down on "voting fraud" with these unnecessary voter ID acts when you ignore blatant irregularities on the electronic voting front.
Well, IT'S JUST AS FUCKING HYPOCRITICAL to cry about electronic voting error when you want to make sure that illegal votes that help your party can't be removed, isn't it?


I have no idea why people are in favor of actually having to prove who you are to vote. Disenfranchise talk is just bullshit because they don't even want you to get ID for free. They claim not to want ID because of the poor, the old, etc. but they have no answer to those in the forms of tax paid programs, and these are people who have a tax paid program answer for EVERYTHING UNDER THE SUN.

Holy fuck!
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Old 04-30-08, 04:00 PM   #144
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Diebold also makes ATMs!!!
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Old 05-01-08, 05:32 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinBlank
Diebold also makes ATMs!!!
You can get a receipt with your ATM transaction.
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Old 05-01-08, 08:44 AM   #146
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I'm sure that is part of it, but they may also be opposed to voter fraud on principle.

Yep. I don't see this as an issue that can only be explained by party politics.
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Old 05-04-08, 10:55 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonF
David Schippers is a crackpot. And you keep posting anecdotes and pretending that it constitutes rigorous analysis. I could post articles talking about caging, talking about Diebold, and on and on and on. But it would still just be a collection of anecdotes. If you wanted to say that some voter fraud is committed by Democrats, I would have absolutely no quarrel with you. Some voter fraud is committed by Democrats. Some is committed by Republicans. My sense is that the instances of voter fraud or voter suppression that would be cured by ID laws is a drop in the bucket, but whatever -- I'm in favor of anything that reduces fraud and suppression without a significant increase in the costs to the voter of exercising his or her franchise. Just don't pretend that Voter ID laws are going to magically fix everything, or that all the blame is on one side of the political spectrum.

I think we should have paper verification of all votes.

I also think we should have privacy when we vote. The new electronic voting machines have zero privacy - people can see the screen when I vote.
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Old 05-04-08, 11:03 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCMojo
As always, I agree with JasonF. There just isn't a real epidemic of voter fraud going on right now -- well, not from an individual voter perspective anyway. There's just not. You can't say that 1% of all votes cast are fraudulent -- you can't even say that 1% of 1% is fraudulent. It's a minor, minor issue at best.

So why do Republicans keep beating at this dead horse? Why do they keep trying to tighten up voting standards? Because the people most affected by these kind of restrictions -- blacks, Hispanics, the elderly, the poor -- are also the ones most likely to vote for the Democrats. Want proof? When was the last time you heard of a Republican railing against the errors and inaccuracies in electronic voting? If you want to talk about the potential for massive fraud, if you want to say that the GOP is a pillar, a bastion of integrity when it comes to voting, then you'd expect them to take the lead in making every election results 100% reliable. But that doesn't happen, whether because leading GOP contributors like Diebold make the machines, or because most of these instances of electronic fraud seem to favor the GOP candidates, I cannot say. But it's hypocritical to act indignant and say that we need to clamp down on "voting fraud" with these unnecessary voter ID acts when you ignore blatant irregularities on the electronic voting front.

I agree with you about the Republicans not complaining about the electronic voting machines. I am in favor of paper verification for all votes.

But you are wrong in your claim that voting fraud is not a big problem. It's like you just decided that my real world examples in post 129 never happened.

Also, even though I showed proof that 25 states have voter ID laws, and I said that the opponents of such laws haven't named even one U.S. citizen who was prevented from voting because of such laws, you claim that such people exist. And even though you can't name any of these people, you claim that thye are "blacks, Hispanics, the elderly, the poor."

Well, I guess since the people are imaginary, you can imagine them to be any race, ethnicity, age, or income that you want.

But the purpose of this thread is to talk about real people, not imaginary ones.

Here are two more real world examples that you can pretend never happened:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/05032008...ria_109229.htm

But consider some of the more outrageous recent instances of voter fraud - all of which favored Democrats:

* In heavily Democratic St. Louis in 2001, the number of registered Democrats actually outnumbered the entire voting-age population; one voter in 10 was also registered elsewhere.

* In the 2004 gubernatorial race in Washington state - which was decided by all of 133 votes - one county yielded 1,800 more ballots cast than the number of people who'd signed in at the polls.
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Old 05-04-08, 11:12 AM   #149
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Here are the facts:

1) As proven in post 129 and 148, vote fraud is a real problem, and it is substantial.

2) Even though 25 states have voter ID laws, the people who claim that such laws prevent people from voting, have never actually named even one person whom the laws prevented from voting.

3) The people who oppose paper verification of voting have never given any legitimate reason to oppose paper verification.
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Old 05-04-08, 11:37 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grundle
Here are the facts:

1) As proven in post 129 and 148, vote fraud is a real problem, and it is substantial.
Nobody disputes that voter fraud is real. What we do dispute is that instances of persons claiming to be someone other than who they are represent the overwhelming majority of instances of voter fraud. Similarly, I reject the notion that a collection of anecdotes "proves" that such instances are "substantial."

Quote:
2) Even though 25 states have voter ID laws, the people who claim that such laws prevent people from voting, have never actually named even one person whom the laws prevented from voting.
Economics 101: What happens when you raise the cost of something? Don't you think that at the margins, a voter ID requirement causes some people to stay home?

Here is an article about a study that found that in 2004, 800,000 voters did not vote because of voter ID laws.

Quote:
3) The people who oppose paper verification of voting have never given any legitimate reason to oppose paper verification.
I support paper verification (although I recognize that it's not a panacea), so someone else will have to address this one.
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