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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 01-08-07, 03:46 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Dog
Sorry, call me an uncaring cad, but T.S. then. Going to the DMV to get a simple picture ID isn't rocket science. If they aren't willing to go through the minimal effort for that, why should I care if they can or can't vote? When you say "working through the system," you are implying a heavily burdensome experience. Now going to the DMV isn't fun, but let's not call it more than it is.
Cost is also in free time. If you are a poorer person, you have less of it. If you are infirm, that presents other obstacles.

Don't get me wrong, as I said earlier in the thread, Dems need to accept IDs, man up and eliminate the barriers for their core electorate. They've been outmanuevered on this one. Still that doesn't make these barriers any less real.

I'm not being normative with the barriers. While I have a position, I'm keeping that out of this. I'm saying these costs impede registration among this group. Plus there is a very direct correlation between civic duty and education. Civic Duty is a critical internal component to have someone justify expending any effort to vote, since voting on the individual level is quite irrational (any cost versus an almost non-existent benefit of impacting the vote).

And the reason I was raising any of it was because grundle and goldblum seemed to be incredulous that you can oppose these voter ID rules if you opposed voter fraud.
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Old 01-08-07, 03:57 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushdog
Cost is also in free time. If you are a poorer person, you have less of it.
Are you sure about that?
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Old 01-08-07, 03:59 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushdog
Cost is also in free time. If you are a poorer person, you have less of it.
You think so?

X beat me.
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Old 01-08-07, 04:02 PM   #79
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Try being working poor and finding the time. And judging by the posters here, it doesn't speak well for your point, fellow DVD Talk Heroes.
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Old 01-08-07, 04:11 PM   #80
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This Australian study says household income has no significant effect on available leisure time.
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Old 01-08-07, 04:17 PM   #81
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And this study says that leisure time is inversely related with hours at work while income is directly related with hours at work.
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Old 01-08-07, 04:21 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by X
This Australian study says household income has no significant effect on available leisure time.
Did you read the study?

I just read the abstract they say
1) This is for Australia
2) They are going against the concept of social exclusion, which is a central tenet (read, supported by more than a single study) of social policy research
3) Money determines what leisure you enjoy
4) Hours worked tends to determine the rest

You really think the working poor aren't putting in a significant number of hours? Is it more likely they can afford to skip out of work to go to DMV or is it less likely they are given that sort of freedom/lattitude. With you, me and kvrdave we have 3 guys discussing this who pretty much make our own hours, any way we want. That is an advantage only the non-working poor or some of the well to do have.

Also, is it more or less likely that the working poor and dealing with manual labor than us? I'm not dismissing knowledge work, but it is a different level of exertion.
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Old 01-08-07, 04:25 PM   #83
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I would bet the working poor tend to have IDs. I would bet it is the non-working poor that has the lowest amount of IDs.
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Old 01-08-07, 04:26 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushdog
3) Money determines what leisure you enjoy
4) Hours worked tends to determine the rest
What leisure you enjoy does not mean what leisure time you have. It means how much money you have to spend on leisure, like going on vacation. Maybe if someone doesn't have enough money to go on vacation they have time to go to the DMV and get a photo ID.

Hours worked has a positive correlation with income.
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Old 01-08-07, 04:26 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by X
And this study says that leisure time is inversely related with hours at work while income is directly related with hours at work.
Your Brookings (unbiased source ) article does not appear to control covariates. Age for example. They show that as age increases, so does hours worked. Also correlated with that is years of experience. "People who have more years of experience are paid more" hardly seems to be deep insight.

Also, how is ageXincome distributed? If you have the young and the old working the least and earning the least, that's going to drag things down. Why not look at (for example) only men aged 30-50, the prime of their working careers?
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Old 01-08-07, 04:27 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
I would bet the working poor tend to have IDs. I would bet it is the non-working poor that has the lowest amount of IDs.
You might be right.
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Old 01-08-07, 04:30 PM   #87
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Well, I can see that any documentation contrary to your belief will be rejected while you provide no counter documentation. I'm afraid I don't have enough leisure time to waste on that. Guess I'm not rich enough.
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Old 01-08-07, 05:14 PM   #88
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If the working poor have no time to get an ID, how did they fill out their employment forms when they were hired (which requires an ID) w/o an ID, or are we assuming that these working poor are working under the table?

I've said it a million times before....I just don't see how one can live without an ID unless they are living on the street or living off the grid. Are these people demanding no/little barriers to legally voting?
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Last edited by Red Dog; 01-08-07 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 01-08-07, 05:50 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Red Dog
If the working poor have no time to get an ID, how did they fill out their employment forms when they were hired (which requires an ID) w/o an ID, or are we assuming that these working poor are working under the table?
You keep trying to confuse and deflect.

Or maybe, just maybe, we're talking about people who aren't working?
As in, 70 years old, poor, no car, and infirm?

How about just 70 years old and infirm?
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Old 01-08-07, 09:42 PM   #90
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I had no interest in pursuing this given the lack of facts from the other side. But in the bit of research I did to see whether the "idle rich" is a generally accurate description I had a link open showing this graph...

Quote:
People with more education have less leisure time.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics' American Time Use Survey (ATUS) found that the most highly educated Americans spend much less time on leisure and sports than the less-educated. In fact, someone with a bachelor's degree spends 29% less time on leisure and sports than a high school graduate and 42% less than someone without a high school diploma.



In 1965, people of all educational levels had about the same amount of leisure time, according to the Federal Reserve study, which agreed with the ATUS findings on leisure time differences today. A March 2006 study of vacation time by the Leisure Trends Group concurred, finding differences in vacation time based on pay level. It found that managers and professionals take just 54 percent of their allotted vacation time, while people who make less than $40,000 a year take 77 percent.

http://www.whitehutchinson.com/leisu...olah_lbe.shtml
Of course education may not correlate with income at some particular voting age subgroup or the White Hutchinson Leisure & Learning Group might be some neo-nazi propaganda group with a goal of showing poor people are on constant vacation.
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Old 01-08-07, 10:25 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Lord Rick
You keep trying to confuse and deflect.

Or maybe, just maybe, we're talking about people who aren't working?
As in, 70 years old, poor, no car, and infirm?

How about just 70 years old and infirm?
Didn't they need ID to get on Social Security and Medicaid?
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Old 01-09-07, 07:24 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
Didn't they need ID to get on Social Security and Medicaid?
I don't know about that process. But if they did, they had an economic incentive to go through the process. And it was still a hardship.

Pretending the whole voter id process is not a hardship is ridiculous. I can understand not caring that it's a hardship for them. But pretending it isn't is disingenuous.
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Old 01-09-07, 07:41 AM   #93
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Pretending the whole voter id process is not a hardship is ridiculous. I can understand not caring that it's a hardship for them. But pretending it isn't is disingenuous.
Pretending it's insurmountable is disingenuous as well.
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Old 01-09-07, 07:50 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by nemein
Pretending it's insurmountable is disingenuous as well.
Give me a break. My responses in this thread never said that.

It will prevent *some* from voting. Even proponents of the proposal agree with that.
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Old 01-09-07, 08:05 AM   #95
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Give me a break. My responses in this thread never said that.
So if it's not insurmountable instead of wasting all this time/energy over whether or not it should be implemented, shouldn't we implement it and then put the effort into making sure everyone who wants to can vote? What alternative solutions have people proposed to help reduce the chance/opportunity of voter fraud?
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Old 01-09-07, 09:04 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Rick
You keep trying to confuse and deflect.

Or maybe, just maybe, we're talking about people who aren't working?
As in, 70 years old, poor, no car, and infirm?

How about just 70 years old and infirm?

Give me a break. I believe I've stated my position flat out. You just don't like it. I'm not trying to confuse or deflect anything - it is a simple question.
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Old 01-09-07, 09:12 AM   #97
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By the way, a 70-year old truly infirmed person wouldn't need an ID. They can vote absentee.

And it seems to me that a non-working poor person has plenty of time on his hands to get over to the DMV.
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Old 01-09-07, 09:15 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by X
I had no interest in pursuing this given the lack of facts from the other side.
One of us cares more and apparently has a hell of a lot more free time.

Quote:
Of course education may not correlate with income at some particular voting age subgroup or the White Hutchinson Leisure & Learning Group might be some neo-nazi propaganda group with a goal of showing poor people are on constant vacation.
Cute, I pointed out earlier that a known interest group had produced a finding with an obvious flaw. So now, let's label me as mindlessly dismissing sources. Ah well, keep on keeping on, I expect nothing less from "the other side".

The bottom line is, if you do not control for age then this is pointless. But hey, love how you marginalized that point with the nazi comment. Nice to see you're above rhetorical techniques and you're just about the facts.

Regardless, you seem on a zealous pursuit to prove me wrong can't imagine how much of your "limited" free time you've been spending. I'll accept that there is evidence of an increase in leisure time among the poor. That's one of the constellation of understood issues that creates barriers to voting. So, cross that one off the list and keep:
1) sub-cultural norms (think inner city and minority)
2) being "off the grid" and working largely off the books
3) being less likely to drive or to have a passport
4) being of lower education and perceive less value in voting, and preceding that getting an ID card

Hmm, which legitimately eligible group is more likely to be negatively impacted by voter ID laws?

Poor
Minority
Lower Educated

or

Wealthy
White
More Educated

That's a thinker. But hey, I know it is all just principle here.
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Old 01-09-07, 09:19 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Bushdog

Hmm, which legitimately eligible group is more likely to be negatively impacted by voter ID laws?

Poor
Minority
Lower Educated

or

Wealthy
White
More Educated

That's a thinker. But hey, I know it is all just principle here.

I'm negatively impacted by many laws. It doesn't mean that they shouldn't exist, particularly when the impact (assuming it is constitutional) is at best negligible.

You're essentially making an equal protection argument. The thing is that reducing voter fraud is a legitimate state interest.
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Old 01-09-07, 09:19 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by nemein
So if it's not insurmountable instead of wasting all this time/energy over whether or not it should be implemented, shouldn't we implement it and then put the effort into making sure everyone who wants to can vote? What alternative solutions have people proposed to help reduce the chance/opportunity of voter fraud?
Because it is a bullshit political issue, like much of everything government does. I believe in the anti-fraud motivation as much as I believe that Conservatives are pro-States rights (up until a State does something Conservatives oppose). Dems are going to fight fight fight.

I agree with you that it is a pointless strategy. They are going to lose. Instead they need to polarize their electorate, have voter registration drives, and get out the vote. They've been beat.
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