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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 05-12-17, 01:00 PM   #926
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

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Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
One giant sham.

The Presidential Advisory Commission on Voter Suppression
The president’s new “election integrity” group will find fraud where it doesn’t exist and make it harder for Americans to cast their ballots.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...errifying.html
Anything to keep those non-Republican voters from the polls is the only way we can #MAGA.
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Old 05-21-17, 06:39 AM   #927
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

Who has the most voter suppression?

New York


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New York is the worst state for independents, bar none. Most states, including North Carolina, hold some form of open primary or caucus that allows independents to participate. Not New York, where independents outnumber Republicans. Voter suppression begins with eligibility, and New York’s parties have long history of trying to minimize participation in primaries…

It’s not just independents who face challenges in New York. The North Carolina law struck down by the courts would have reduced early voting to 10 days from 17. But New York (like a dozen other states) has no early voting at all. If you’re counting at home, 10 days of early voting is a voting-rights violation, but zero days of early voting is just fine with the federal courts.
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Old 05-21-17, 11:09 AM   #928
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

Not the same thing.
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Old 05-21-17, 12:13 PM   #929
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

What groups can we support to help curb voter suppression in 2018? We need an organization that helps get people to the ballots. If they're going to close voter stations in poor neighborhoods, we should bus people to open voter stations. And then the expensive part would be the ones who need legal assistance to get their info sync'd and updated so they're eligible to vote. Then all that's left is the really tough cases (homeless, name changes, etc.).

There seems to be a lot of awareness, but nobody stepping up to do anything about it.
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Old 05-23-17, 08:19 AM   #930
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

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Originally Posted by Psi View Post
Not the same thing.
No, it's not.

0 < 10.
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Old 05-23-17, 10:25 AM   #931
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

If you are trying to imply that New York is worse you are sadly mistaken, if not then you have it right.

The article about New York is poorly reasoned. A party limiting the selection of its candidate to actual party members is not the same as the state of NC trying to deny people the right to vote.

On a side note, why would none party member think that they should have the right to help pick a party's candidate? That simply does not make any sense.

As for the other items mentioned in the article, still not the same thing as NC's efforts to deny voting.
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Old 05-23-17, 11:41 AM   #932
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

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Originally Posted by WCChiCubsFan View Post
If you are trying to imply that New York is worse you are sadly mistaken, if not then you have it right.

The article about New York is poorly reasoned. A party limiting the selection of its candidate to actual party members is not the same as the state of NC trying to deny people the right to vote.

On a side note, why would none party member think that they should have the right to help pick a party's candidate? That simply does not make any sense.

As for the other items mentioned in the article, still not the same thing as NC's efforts to deny voting.
While much of the article's fundamental argument is wrong, many the complaints of the election system in NY state are still valid.
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Old 05-23-17, 12:40 PM   #933
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
No, it's not.

0 < 10.
States like Texas and North Carolina were found to specifically target minorities. If New York is guilty of anything, it's that they limit participation in primaries and have a narrow voting window, but that applies to every race. That's like arguing that all states "suppress" voting by holding voting on Tuesdays instead of weekends, or by not allowing online voting, or not providing Uber services for people to go to vote. Making it harder for everyone to vote is not the same as limiting voting rights of specific groups.

Not the same thing.

0 /= 10.
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Old 05-23-17, 01:25 PM   #934
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

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Originally Posted by Psi View Post
States like Texas and North Carolina were found to specifically target minorities. If New York is guilty of anything, it's that they limit participation in primaries and have a narrow voting window, but that applies to every race.
If a state makes it difficult for everyone to vote, wouldn't it stand to reason that those most economically disadvantaged, who work jobs with lower prestige, who are more reliant on public transportation, etc., would be unequally disadvantaged by such stringent voting laws?
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Old 05-23-17, 01:29 PM   #935
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

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While much of the article's fundamental argument is wrong, many the complaints of the election system in NY state are still valid.
I don't have a problem with closed primaries, that is not voter suppression.

I do know there were issues that were caused as a result of some of the measures they put in place to help people vote after Sandy. That was the result of poor execution which is again not the same as overtly trying to restrict certain people from voting.
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Old 05-23-17, 01:31 PM   #936
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

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Originally Posted by Psi View Post
Making it harder for everyone to vote is not the same as limiting voting rights of specific groups.
Do not the same voting laws apply equally to all "specific groups?"

Do not all "groups" live under the same calendar with the same number of days and hours in the day?

Exactly how are the voting rights of "specific groups" being "limited" in ways that are distinct from other groups?
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Old 05-23-17, 01:41 PM   #937
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

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Originally Posted by WCChiCubsFan View Post
I don't have a problem with closed primaries, that is not voter suppression.
Nor do I, and I should have specified that. In fact, I favor them.
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Old 05-23-17, 01:59 PM   #938
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

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Originally Posted by wendersfan View Post
If a state makes it difficult for everyone to vote, wouldn't it stand to reason that those most economically disadvantaged, who work jobs with lower prestige, who are more reliant on public transportation, etc., would be unequally disadvantaged by such stringent voting laws?
Fair enough, but I think the voting restrictions passed by the Texas and NC legislatures were done with intent to harm minorities. I don't see NY setting out to target anybody. To be clear, I am in favor of making voting as simple and convenient as possible.
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Old 05-23-17, 02:03 PM   #939
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

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Fair enough, but I think the voting restrictions passed by the Texas and NC legislatures were done with intent to harm minorities. I don't see NY setting out to target anybody. To be clear, I am in favor of making voting as simple and convenient as possible.
I absolutely agree. Two points:
  • Almost any law that restricts voting across the board is bound to affect the poor and disadvantaged to a greater degree.
  • Some laws are specifically designed to restrict the voting of specific (minority) groups.
The New York laws do the former, laws in other places, like Texas or NC, are shown to do the latter.
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Old 05-23-17, 02:04 PM   #940
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Exactly how are the voting rights of "specific groups" being "limited" in ways that are distinct from other groups?
http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/22/politi...a-gerrymander/
Quote:
May 22, 2017
The Supreme Court struck down two congressional district maps in North Carolina Monday, holding that the state had engaged in an unconstitutional racial gerrymander.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/10/u...er-id-law.html

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April 10. 2017
A federal judge ruled on Monday that the voter identification law the Texas Legislature passed in 2011 was enacted with the intent to discriminate against black and Hispanic voters, raising the possibility that the state’s election procedures could be put back under federal oversight.
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Old 05-23-17, 02:34 PM   #941
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

I think the "limiting voting rights" applies more to the limitations on IDs, although if the argument is that it's a form of "poll tax," that's targeting economic class more than minorities. But if specific targeting was proved, guilty as charged (rather than just looking at the "effect").

The gerrymandering issue puzzles me a bit. I can understand how the practice hampers political groups (although it is a legal practice both parties use when in power). But to assert that it limits "minorities" seems to draw the conclusion that either (a) minorities are tied to one political party over another or that (b) minorities will always vote for "one of their own." Both seem to smack of racist stereotypes that wouldn't be allowed in other discussions...even if those conclusions are supported by statistics.

I agree that, within reason (such as budget constraints), voting should be as simple and easy as possible. For financially-strapped localities, restriction of voting to ten days doesn't seem to be unreasonable. If you can't manage to vote within a two-week period under normal circumstances, someone is not paying attention. People make accommodations to work around schedules all the time for everyday occurrences, so why not for voting?

I do think that hours should be more flexible to accommodate various shifts, and that polls should stay open later, at least on some days.
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Old 05-23-17, 02:43 PM   #942
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
The gerrymandering issue puzzles me a bit. I can understand how the practice hampers political groups (although it is a legal practice both parties use when in power). But to assert that it limits "minorities" seems to draw the conclusion that either (a) minorities are tied to one political party over another or that (b) minorities will always vote for "one of their own." Both seem to smack of racist stereotypes that wouldn't be allowed in other discussions...even if those conclusions are supported by statistics.
It's not just my opinion. It is the conclusion of a Federal Court and the US Supreme Court. I don't know why it's racist to think that those voting limits are racist.
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Old 05-23-17, 03:42 PM   #943
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

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It's not just my opinion. It is the conclusion of a Federal Court and the US Supreme Court. I don't know why it's racist to think that those voting limits are racist.
Let's try this: If the same districts had been draw with all-white voters having the same effect of diluting Democratic vote in other districts, would it be seen as racist or political?

My contention is the assumption that black voters will vote the same way. That's not only stereotyping, it's insulting to imply that the black vote is a monolithic vote.

If that was the intent, it says that both those who drew up the districts and those who found them to be racially-biased reached the same conclusion: black voters are predictable in ways that other races are not.

Again, would the same gerrymandering have been found unconstitutional or illegal if all of the citizens had been white? Even if the districts had historically voted overwhelmingly for one party or another, would it have been assumed that past trends would continue in perpetuity?

If you can explain why black faces are attached to particular parties when whites are not, I'd like to hear the reasoning that explains how this is not reaching a racially-stereotyped conclusion.
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Old 05-23-17, 03:47 PM   #944
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

It's not SCOTUS who is assuming all black voters will vote as a singular bloc, it's Republicans who made that assumption, hence their targeting of black voters. If a black voter chooses to vote Republican, that's just a bonus.
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Old 05-23-17, 04:19 PM   #945
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
My contention is the assumption that black voters will vote the same way. That's not only stereotyping, it's insulting to imply that the black vote is a monolithic vote.

If that was the intent, it says that both those who drew up the districts and those who found them to be racially-biased reached the same conclusion: black voters are predictable in ways that other races are not.

...

If you can explain why black faces are attached to particular parties when whites are not, I'd like to hear the reasoning that explains how this is not reaching a racially-stereotyped conclusion.
It is a fact that Blacks tend to vote certain way, as do Whites, and young people, and people in rural areas, and Texans and Californians and Alaskans, etc. It's not stereotyping or insulting to acknowledge that.

And it's not because "black faces" are attached to particular parties. Yes, Black folks do think for themselves, and the majority are against the GOP because many of them see the GOP adopt policies that harm them.

I don't know what you are trying to justify or sugarcoat. One of the North Carolina voting district maps was rejected by the U.S. Supreme Court 8-0. There are cases of nuanced interpretation. This one was not even close.
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Old 05-23-17, 04:37 PM   #946
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

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Originally Posted by Psi View Post
It is a fact that Blacks tend to vote certain way, as do Whites, and young people, and people in rural areas, and Texans and Californians and Alaskans, etc. It's not stereotyping or insulting to acknowledge that.

And it's not because "black faces" are attached to particular parties. Yes, Black folks do think for themselves, and the majority are against the GOP because many of them see the GOP adopt policies that harm them.

I don't know what you are trying to justify or sugarcoat. One of the North Carolina voting district maps was rejected by the U.S. Supreme Court 8-0. There are cases of nuanced interpretation. This one was not even close.
I'm not trying to "justify anything." In fact, I think the practice of gerrymandering should end even if adjoining districts consist 100% of the same "race." So you can put that dog to bed.

I am curious about one statement you made, though.

How do "whites" tend to vote? I need to know if my voting patterns are typical of not.
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Old 05-23-17, 04:50 PM   #947
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

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I am curious about one statement you made, though.

How do "whites" tend to vote? I need to know if my voting patterns are typical of not.
For example, according to this analysis, https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/poll...ps-voted-2016/, in the 2016 Presidential election, Whites favored Trump over Clinton by 58-37%, while Blacks favored Clinton over Trump by 88-8, and Hispanics by 65-29. You obviously are not typical.
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Old 05-23-17, 05:54 PM   #948
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

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Originally Posted by Psi View Post
For example, according to this analysis, https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/poll...ps-voted-2016/, in the 2016 Presidential election, Whites favored Trump over Clinton by 58-37%, while Blacks favored Clinton over Trump by 88-8, and Hispanics by 65-29. You obviously are not typical.
How did whites vote in 2008 and 2012? (If you've got a link handy...not trying to put you to extra work).

Do whites ever come out close to 50-50? Is that atypical?

Edit: I looked it up (using your link for reference) with these results given for whites:

2000: 55% R; 42% D

2004: 58% R; 41%D

2008: 55% R; 43% D

2012: 59% R; 39% D

Last edited by creekdipper; 05-23-17 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 05-23-17, 07:10 PM   #949
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Re: The Voter ID Thread

I was saying only that groups have voting tendencies. It doesn't mean that they are monolithic and don't think for themselves, and there is no racism or stereotyping involved when we recognize those tendencies. Black folks have very good reasons to vote against Republicans. In fact we all do. Black people are just smarter than most of us
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