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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 01-05-07, 10:35 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Dog
Some states have gone this route (I remember there being another thread about that) but people/groups complained about that too.
What was their basis? We can't commit voter fraud as easily now?
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Old 01-05-07, 10:40 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy
fill out your voter registration with your official name, problem solved

everyone has a right to vote and they also have a responsibility to register properly to make sure the election is properly conducted.
Sure, it would be great if everyone used their official name on their voter registration form. But I don't think writing "Dave" instead of "David" on a form is sufficient cause for disenfranchisement.

Again, I think most poll workers are smart enough and honest enough that when they see the driver's license of David P. Smith and the voter registration card of Dave Smith, they'll figure out that it's the right guy and let him vote. But there is a potential for problems there that people should be aware of.
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Old 01-05-07, 10:55 AM   #53
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I think I prefer those problems to voter fraud.
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Old 01-05-07, 11:01 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kvrdave
I think I prefer those problems to voter fraud.

I don't even think that is a problem. If your ID didn't have your address on it, then yeah, I suppose a Dave vs David problem could exist, but when you have the address on your ID and voter roll, c'mon, nobody is going to question Dave vs David or Joe vs Joseph, etc.
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Old 01-05-07, 11:06 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonF
Sure, it would be great if everyone used their official name on their voter registration form. But I don't think writing "Dave" instead of "David" on a form is sufficient cause for disenfranchisement.

Again, I think most poll workers are smart enough and honest enough that when they see the driver's license of David P. Smith and the voter registration card of Dave Smith, they'll figure out that it's the right guy and let him vote. But there is a potential for problems there that people should be aware of.
put some instructions on top in big bold letters, something like

"Hey stupid, use your official name."
"If you drivers license says David, write David on this form."

And this isn't much of a problem since all states have motor voter so that when you get your DL, the info automatically registers you to vote.
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Old 01-07-07, 10:22 AM   #56
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Let's make the Voter ID card a national ID card and see what conservatives think then.
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Old 01-07-07, 10:29 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Rick
Let's make the Voter ID card a national ID card and see what conservatives think then.

I don't follow. Generally, conservatives want to require voter ID cards (presented at the polls). Conservatives want to require national ID cards.
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Old 01-07-07, 10:42 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRM114
Photo IDs should be absolutely free. End of story.
I agree with that.

Trying to get documentation and minimizing fraud is a good thing. I honestly think both parties would grudgingly agree with that.

The issue is, the "cost" of having to get a card will disproportionately weed out non-drivers, and on top of non-drivers, specifically the less educated and poorer people who are less willing to bear the "cost" of the effort needed. And these people tend to vote Democrat more than not.

And thus a logical issue becomes one of politics.

I think the Dems need to man up and accept ID cards and simply make sure the costs are minimized for acquiring the cards. They need to have voter registration drives in inner cities. The rules are changing and they need to change strategy, not simply cry that the rules have changed.
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Old 01-07-07, 10:44 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by grundle
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This is all about voter fraud. There's no other reason to oppose requiring free picture ID to vote.
You really live in a rigid world that is incapable of understanding that all people aren't educated, white middle class males, huh?
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Old 01-07-07, 11:12 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushdog
You really live in a rigid world that is incapable of understanding that all people aren't educated, white middle class males, huh?


How did you get that from the line you quoted?
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Old 01-07-07, 11:52 AM   #61
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Uhm, because as I posted right before there are other good reasons to be uncomfortable with picture IDs? Ways that impact non-whites (subgroup norms) and poorer people (cost barrier to voting).

In saying there is only one reason to oppose Picture IDs is rigid narrow thinking.
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Old 01-07-07, 12:09 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushdog
Uhm, because as I posted right before there are other good reasons to be uncomfortable with picture IDs? Ways that impact non-whites (subgroup norms) and poorer people (cost barrier to voting).

In saying there is only one reason to oppose Picture IDs is rigid narrow thinking.

Well for one thing, he said free picture ID, so the class issue then becomes moot.

Granted, I think the nominal fee ($2/year) for a picture ID doesn't equal a cost barrier neither.
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Old 01-07-07, 12:56 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Dog
Conservatives want to require national ID cards.
Really? I thought the fundies likened a national ID to the mark of the beast, and the militia types thought it was a way of rounding up undesirables (AKA them).
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Old 01-07-07, 01:09 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushdog
Uhm, because as I posted right before there are other good reasons to be uncomfortable with picture IDs? Ways that impact non-whites (subgroup norms) and poorer people (cost barrier to voting).

In saying there is only one reason to oppose Picture IDs is rigid narrow thinking.
You agreed with CRM that photo IDs should be free. Then in the next post you criticized grundle for saying photo IDs should be free. Just trying to understand your position, that's all.
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Old 01-07-07, 05:05 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Red Dog
Well for one thing, he said free picture ID, so the class issue then becomes moot.

Granted, I think the nominal fee ($2/year) for a picture ID doesn't equal a cost barrier neither.
I'd disagree. Money isn't an issue, but social class matters as those in lower social class are less likely to get these cards due to poorer education, less ability to work through the system, and less willing to work through the system.

Oh, and cost has a lot more to do with it than simply money.
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Old 01-07-07, 10:20 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
Really? I thought the fundies likened a national ID to the mark of the beast, and the militia types thought it was a way of rounding up undesirables (AKA them).


Obviously it isn't what you know, but what you think you know. That was dealt with on Social Security numbers as well, yet we have them. I think an ID would be a lot less of an issue, personally.

edit: If you want to tattoo them on people's foreheads, you might have more of a problem. The ACLU may not bother you, though.
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Old 01-08-07, 02:13 AM   #67
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This issue is ridiculous.

I say we treat this like some want to treat the gun problem in our country, enforce the laws we have.

Why do we need more regulations and how is a $2 photo ID going to solve the problem of voter fraud. A 10 year old could probably make a copy of one of those. Politics is a million dollar business and if voter fraud is as big of a problem as many of you allude to (even though few if any cases are ever prosecuted) what is going to keep these "evil doers" from spending their money to provide millions of fake id's to potential voters. Once the voter walks out the door after voting with a fake id it is impossible to prosecute unless we videotape the whole process.

Wait a minute, then we could enact a law that we had to photograph and fingerprint every person that voted and make voter fraud punishable by death.

Just ask the College Testing Board (SAT, ACT) how well requiring photo id's reduced their problems with fraud. You thinl people are no longer hring people to take their tests for them?

This issue is a waste of time and money.
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Old 01-08-07, 02:29 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by mseang
This issue is ridiculous.

I say we treat this like some want to treat the gun problem in our country, enforce the laws we have.

Why do we need more regulations and how is a $2 photo ID going to solve the problem of voter fraud. A 10 year old could probably make a copy of one of those. Politics is a million dollar business and if voter fraud is as big of a problem as many of you allude to (even though few if any cases are ever prosecuted) what is going to keep these "evil doers" from spending their money to provide millions of fake id's to potential voters. Once the voter walks out the door after voting with a fake id it is impossible to prosecute unless we videotape the whole process.

Wait a minute, then we could enact a law that we had to photograph and fingerprint every person that voted and make voter fraud punishable by death.

Just ask the College Testing Board (SAT, ACT) how well requiring photo id's reduced their problems with fraud. You thinl people are no longer hring people to take their tests for them?

This issue is a waste of time and money.
Yours is the argument that is ridiculous. Voter fraud is a rampant problem. A simple photo ID requirement would work to severly hamper such fraud. And it does work to hamper fraud in college testing exams.

Is it a foolproof method? Of course not. But the alternative is...well, at present there is no alternative means of restricting fraud in place. I'll side with stopping some fraud as opposed to stopping no fraud.

Sure, photographing, videotaping and fingerprinting as well as the "death penalty" would also serve to hamper voter fraud, but hopefully the differences between a photo ID and these outlandish examples do not need to be stated.
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Last edited by Goldblum; 01-08-07 at 02:33 AM.
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Old 01-08-07, 08:40 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushdog
I'd disagree. Money isn't an issue, but social class matters as those in lower social class are less likely to get these cards due to poorer education, less ability to work through the system, and less willing to work through the system.

Oh, and cost has a lot more to do with it than simply money.

Sorry, call me an uncaring cad, but T.S. then. Going to the DMV to get a simple picture ID isn't rocket science. If they aren't willing to go through the minimal effort for that, why should I care if they can or can't vote? When you say "working through the system," you are implying a heavily burdensome experience. Now going to the DMV isn't fun, but let's not call it more than it is.
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Old 01-08-07, 10:13 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Red Dog
Sorry, call me an uncaring cad, but T.S. then. Going to the DMV to get a simple picture ID isn't rocket science. If they aren't willing to go through the minimal effort for that, why should I care if they can or can't vote? When you say "working through the system," you are implying a heavily burdensome experience. Now going to the DMV isn't fun, but let's not call it more than it is.
Not hard for you. But for people without transportation, for people with physical illness, the elderly, etc. - it's a hardship. Getting there is tough enough. Standing in line just compounds it.

Let's not call it less than it is.

Let's also be honest. Repubs are pushing this not to stop voter fraud, but because they know it will help them on Election Day. Dems are fighting it for the same reason.
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Old 01-08-07, 10:26 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Lord Rick
Not hard for you. But for people without transportation, for people with physical illness, the elderly, etc. - it's a hardship. Getting there is tough enough. Standing in line just compounds it.

Let's not call it less than it is.

Let's also be honest. Repubs are pushing this not to stop voter fraud, but because they know it will help them on Election Day. Dems are fighting it for the same reason.

Getting there is tough? I think not.

Don't you think there are charity groups that would organize voter-ID trips to the DMV. They organize voter registration drives so why not that? Plus in most states, when you get an ID, you are automatically registered to vote. Then in metro areas, it is very easy to get on a bus/subway to go to the DMV. So you stand in line (now I think you get a number and sit and wait). You have to stand in line for a lot of things in life. Tough is the last word I would use to describe this apparently 'agonizing ordeal.'

It is not a hardship.
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Old 01-08-07, 10:40 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Bushdog
You really live in a rigid world that is incapable of understanding that all people aren't educated, white middle class males, huh?

Please cite evidence that black females are less intelligent than white males.
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Old 01-08-07, 10:43 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushdog
I'd disagree. Money isn't an issue, but social class matters as those in lower social class are less likely to get these cards due to poorer education, less ability to work through the system, and less willing to work through the system.

Oh, and cost has a lot more to do with it than simply money.

Do you think people should have to have identification to apply for a library card?
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Old 01-08-07, 12:22 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Red Dog

It is not a hardship.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
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Old 01-08-07, 03:40 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by grundle
Please cite evidence that black females are less intelligent than white males.
Look at you prove my point.

Because, you know, raw intelligence is what matters here. Education, income, and subcultural norms mean nothing.

You declared there to be no other possible reason to oppose this other than if you supported voter fraud. Keep enjoying your narrow-minded worldview and convoluted thought processes.
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