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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 04-21-06, 03:01 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grundle
The only reason to oppose a requirement for free voter ID is because of fraud.

And the only reason to oppose paper evidence of voting is because of fraud.

It's just the first is opposed by Democrats, and the second is opposed by Republicans.
Honest question here: what are examples of Republicans opposing paper evidence of voting? I've seen arguments from both sides (one side wanting verification of the submitted ballot and recountability, the other wanting to maintain ballot secrecy), but I haven't been aware of either side being particularly aligned with a specific party.

Or maybe I've got the wrong issue here.
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Old 04-22-06, 08:41 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VinVega
Thanks!
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Old 04-22-06, 08:51 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by flagstone
Honest question here: what are examples of Republicans opposing paper evidence of voting?
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm

Published on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 by the Free Press, Columbus, Ohiio

Diebold, Electronic Voting and the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy

by Bob Fitrakis

If Ohio’s Republican Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell has his way, Diebold will receive a contract to supply touch screen electronic voting machines for much of the state. None of these Diebold machines will provide a paper receipt of the vote.
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Old 04-22-06, 09:14 AM   #29
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Just as an aside, quoting Bob Fitrakis is little like quoting Michael Moore - the guy has, if possible, negative credibility.
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Old 04-22-06, 12:52 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grundle
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm

Published on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 by the Free Press, Columbus, Ohiio

Diebold, Electronic Voting and the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy

by Bob Fitrakis

If Ohio’s Republican Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell has his way, Diebold will receive a contract to supply touch screen electronic voting machines for much of the state. None of these Diebold machines will provide a paper receipt of the vote.
Fair enough. I guess I'd just take some exception to two points from your original post - one, I believe there are other reasons to oppose paper evidence of voting besides a desire to skew the results; and two, I'm not sure I'd categorize opposing paper evidence of voting as a formal Republican policy, at least in the same way I'd categorize opposing photo identification for voting as a formal Democrat policy. But as we've seen, neither party is particular clean when it comes to voting shenanigans.
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Old 04-22-06, 01:14 PM   #31
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Shockingly, she's a Reagan appointee and was a Rhenquist cronie.
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Old 04-22-06, 01:19 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grundle
Published on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 by the Free Press, Columbus, Ohiio
Hey grundle, the woman who's prsident of the board of the Free Press will be here tonight for a cookout. Want me to say hello for you?
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Old 04-22-06, 02:09 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by wendersfan
Hey grundle, the woman who's prsident of the board of the Free Press will be here tonight for a cookout. Want me to say hello for you?
OK!
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Old 04-22-06, 04:49 PM   #34
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Georgia may require voter picture-ID
Apr. 22, 2006 at 4:59PM

A Georgia law requiring voters to show a government-issued photo ID at the polls has won approval from the U.S. Justice Department.

But a federal lawsuit challenging the law is still pending, and the law has also been challenged in state court.

The Georgia General Assembly revised the law earlier this year, with a bill that makes a state ID card free for anyone who needs it to vote and requires the IDs be made available in all 159 counties.

Republicans, who have pushed for the voter ID law, say it's a common sense measure aimed at curbing potential voter fraud. Lawyers representing several groups suing over the law -- including the League of Women Voters, Common Cause, ACLU and NAACP -- say they will formally ask a federal judge to find the law unconstitutional.

Georgia is one of several states and regions covered by provisions in the Voting Rights Act of 1965 that require federal approval for any changes to voting laws.
WTF could be unconstitutional when you provide the cards for free?
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Old 04-23-06, 07:35 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Dog
WTF could be unconstitutional when you provide the cards for free?

Nothing would be unsontitutional.

The U.S. Constitutional specifically says that it's up to the states to decide these things.

This is all about voter fraud. There's no other reason to oppose requiring free picture ID to vote.
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Old 04-23-06, 10:48 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonF
The argument (and I'm not saying I buy it) is that everyone has the right to vote, no strings attached. There are people who are so poor that the $10 fee for getting an ID is a genuine burden, or for whatever reason don't have an ID. These people are just as entitled to vote as any other citizen over the age of 18.
Here are the Indiana rules for ID-required voting ... and free IDs will be provided assuming a person can prove they are actually a resident.

http://www.in.gov/sos/photoid/
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Old 01-04-07, 06:32 PM   #37
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Update:

The 7th Circuit has upheld the lower court ruling on the constitutionality of the law - it held that the photo ID requirment did not impose an undue burden on the right to vote, even though the law would deter some individuals from voting, and even assuming that the law would have disproportionate effects on voters of one party.

Here's a snippet from one of my favorites, Judge Richard Posner:

Quote:
The Indiana law is not like a poll tax, where on one side is the right to vote and on the other side the state’s interest in defraying the cost of elections or in limiting the franchise to people who really care about voting or in excluding poor people or in discouraging people who are black. The purpose of the Indiana law is to reduce voting fraud, and voting fraud impairs the right of legitimate voters to vote by diluting their votes — dilution being recognized to be an impairment of the right to vote.
I couldn't agree more. I've been saying for years that the poll tax argument is a load of crap.

Opinion here:
http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw...a-Judgment.pdf
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Old 01-04-07, 06:39 PM   #38
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Thank goodness. I have emailed my Senator back and forth on this issue, and she thinks people will quit voting if they are poor, etc. I told her that if this is THE thing that keeps them from voting, they aren't voting anyway.
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Old 01-04-07, 07:17 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mosquitobite
Paper "evidence" does not stop fraud, it's simply convenient for "recounts" when your party loses.
I don't think the argument is that a paper trail makes fraud impossible but that not having a paper trail makes fraud easier, which makes sense to me. Also, I have heard that many Republicans oppose the paper trail although I can't vouch for the accuracy of such reports. To the extent they are true I think grundle has a good point.
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Old 01-04-07, 11:45 PM   #40
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Interesting points from Judge Evans' dissnet:
Quote:
The fig leaf of respectability providing the motive behind this law is that it is necessary to prevent voter fraud — a person showing up at the polls pretending to be someone else. But where is the evidence of that kind of voter fraud in this record? Voting fraud is a crime (punishable by up to 3 years in prison and a fine of up to $10,000 in Indiana) and, at oral argument, the defenders of this law candidly acknowledged that no one — in the history of Indiana — had ever been charged with violating that law. Nationwide, a preliminary report to the U.S. Election Assistance Commission has found little evidence of the type of polling-place fraud that photo ID laws seek to stop. If that’s the case, where is the justification for this law? Is it wise to use a sledgehammer to hit either a real or imaginary fly on a glass coffee table? I think not.

...

The potential for mischief with this law is obvious. Does the name on the ID “conform” to the name on the voter registration list? If the last name of a newly married woman is on the ID but her maiden name is on the registration list, does it conform? If a name is misspelled on one — Schmit versus Schmitt — does it conform? If a “Terence” appears on one and a shortened “Terry” on the other, does it conform?

But these are perhaps minor concerns. The real problem is that this law will make it significantly more difficult for some eligible voters — I have no idea how many, but 4 percent is a number that has been bandied about — to vote. And this group is mostly comprised of people who are poor, elderly, minorities, disabled, or some combination thereof. I would suspect that few, if any, in this class have passports (which cost in the neighborhood of $100), and most don’t have drivers licenses (who needs a drivers license if you don’t drive a car?) or state-issued ID cards which require valid (certified) birth certificates. And it’s not particularly easy for a poor, elderly person who lives in South Bend, but was born in Arkansas, to get a certified copy of his birth certificate.

Now I certainly agree with my brother Posner that “it is exceedingly difficult to maneuver in today’s America without a photo ID.” But Indiana’s law mostly affects those who, for various reasons, lack any real maneuverability at all.

...

I believe that most of the problems with our voting system — like deceased persons or felons on registration rolls, machines that malfunction, and confusing ballots (think butterfly) — are suggestive of mismanagement, not electoral wrongdoing. And I recognize that there is, and perhaps there may always be, a fundamental tension between claims of voter fraud and fears of disenfranchisement. But Indiana’s law, because it allows nothing except a passport or an Indiana ID card to prove that a potential voter is who he says he is, tips far too far in the wrong direction.
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Old 01-05-07, 01:09 AM   #41
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I don't put much credence in the fact that there are no convictions or even prosecutions for individual voter fraud. When King County has 6,000 more votes than registered voters, and there are no prosecutions or convictions, I tend to think it isn't something that gets a lot of investigation.

At any rate, I don't think having to prove who you are is an undue burden to take part in something that important. Don't you need some form of ID to get public assistance, social security, etc.? If not, it also seems ripe for fraud.

If we can get voter registration drives going, we can get photo ID drives going at the same time.
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Old 01-05-07, 07:09 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonF
Interesting points from Judge Evans' dissnet:
they send out the voter info months before the election so you have a chance to change a mistake.

the terry vs terence thing is a stupid excuse since official documents need to have your official birth name on them. if you want to call yourself terry you are free to do so and most IT and HR departments will even let your nickname be displayed in the email system
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Old 01-05-07, 09:06 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by al_bundy
they send out the voter info months before the election so you have a chance to change a mistake.

the terry vs terence thing is a stupid excuse since official documents need to have your official birth name on them. if you want to call yourself terry you are free to do so and most IT and HR departments will even let your nickname be displayed in the email system
I can certainly imagine somebody named Terrence having a driver's license that says "Terrence" but filling out the voter registration form with "Terry." I think Judge Evans is right that there is potential for mischief with an unscrupulous election judge. On the other hand, I think an unscrupulous election judge will find a way to make mischief no matter what.
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Old 01-05-07, 09:16 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
I don't put much credence in the fact that there are no convictions or even prosecutions for individual voter fraud. When King County has 6,000 more votes than registered voters, and there are no prosecutions or convictions, I tend to think it isn't something that gets a lot of investigation.

At any rate, I don't think having to prove who you are is an undue burden to take part in something that important. Don't you need some form of ID to get public assistance, social security, etc.? If not, it also seems ripe for fraud.

If we can get voter registration drives going, we can get photo ID drives going at the same time.

Well said. I had the same issue with the dissent, which overall, I found very weak. Just because there aren't convictions or prosecutions taking place doesn't mean there isn't fraud going on. That very well could be indication of how easy it is to cheat the system now. Also, one doesn't necessarily draft laws solely in reaction to a perceived existing problem. One can draft laws in anticipation of a perceived future problem.

Also just because there is potential for mischief under the new rules doesn't automatically render those rules pointless.

I've mentioned my puzzlement over the poor lacking IDs many times - how do they get welfare checks without a picture ID?
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Old 01-05-07, 09:28 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by JasonF
I can certainly imagine somebody named Terrence having a driver's license that says "Terrence" but filling out the voter registration form with "Terry." I think Judge Evans is right that there is potential for mischief with an unscrupulous election judge. On the other hand, I think an unscrupulous election judge will find a way to make mischief no matter what.

fill out your voter registration with your official name, problem solved

everyone has a right to vote and they also have a responsibility to register properly to make sure the election is properly conducted.
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Old 01-05-07, 09:44 AM   #46
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Photo IDs should be absolutely free. End of story.
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Old 01-05-07, 10:29 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by CRM114
Photo IDs should be absolutely free. End of story.
If it would make this law get universal approval, I could live with that. I do question why the opponents of the law don't propose that. It seems like a great social service (giving everyone an ID) that extends beyond just the voting issue.
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Old 01-05-07, 10:29 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Dog
Well said. I had the same issue with the dissent, which overall, I found very weak. Just because there aren't convictions or prosecutions taking place doesn't mean there isn't fraud going on. That very well could be indication of how easy it is to cheat the system now. Also, one doesn't necessarily draft laws solely in reaction to a perceived existing problem. One can draft laws in anticipation of a perceived future problem.
But I think the pro-ID side has made it clear that they don't see this as a future problem -- they see it as a present problem.
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Old 01-05-07, 10:31 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
If it would make this law get universal approval, I could live with that. I do question why the opponents of the law don't propose that. It seems like a great social service (giving everyone an ID) that extends beyond just the voting issue.

Some states have gone this route (I remember there being another thread about that) but people/groups complained about that too.
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Old 01-05-07, 10:32 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by JasonF
But I think the pro-ID side has made it clear that they don't see this as a future problem -- they see it as a present problem.
It may very well be, but it doesn't change the fact that a law isn't automatically pointless if it isn't addressing some perceived problem.
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