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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 02-24-06, 02:05 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird2340
I didn't say anything was wrong with being happy.
Gay ... you know ... HAPPY.
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Old 02-24-06, 02:06 PM   #102
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It's been shown consistently, I think--for the past 20 or 30 years in nearly every study of every kind--that kids raised by gay parents are no more likely to be gay themselves.

Of course, if they *do* turn out gay, they *are* far more likely to be happy and self-accepting--which is exactly what the religious right doesn't want. Don't let it seem normal, for god's sake.

They're fighting the culture war for the *next* generation. They want gay kids to continue to be pressured into trying to be straight, like the Bible says they should.
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Old 02-24-06, 02:11 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhk
Hey wait a minute...






I thought you were staying out of this thread?
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Old 02-24-06, 02:12 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamblast
It's been shown consistently, I think--for the past 20 or 30 years in nearly every study of every kind--that kids raised by gay parents are no more likely to be gay themselves.

Of course, if they *do* turn out gay, they *are* far more likely to be happy and self-accepting--which is exactly what the religious right doesn't want.

They're fighting the culture war for the *next* generation. They want gay kids to continue to be pressured into trying to be straight, like the Bible says they should.
I don't believe that kids raised by gay parents will turn out to be gay due to that defining factor (I'm sure many do though).

All I know is that if I was raised without a mother, nobody would have told me to share while playing with friends or to wash behind my ears.

If I was raised without a father, no one would have taught me how to tie a necktie or how to drive.

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Old 02-24-06, 02:12 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Geofferson
For women I agree. For men I disagree.

What turns you on, a Playboy calendar or the local fireman's calendar? I highly doubt it is a little bit of both.
True, I'd have to say the Playboy calendar .

I just don't like the concept of 100% either way it seems to connote that you are either a raging he-man or a shrieking sissy. This obviously is not the case.
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Old 02-24-06, 02:14 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geofferson
If I was raised without a father, no one would have taught me how to tie a necktie or how to drive.

So a boy raised by two gay men would learn how to tie a four-in-hand, a windsor, and learn how to sew their own clothes?

Cool!
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Old 02-24-06, 02:15 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain Stew
I just don't like the concept of 100% either way it seems to connote that you are either a raging he-man or a shrieking sissy. This obviously is not the case.
Indeed. I, for example, am a raging sissy.
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Old 02-24-06, 02:15 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wendersfan
So a boy raised by two gay men would learn how to tie a four-in-hand, a windsor, and learn how to sew their own clothes?

Cool!
Touche!
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Old 02-24-06, 02:20 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by TracerBullet
As long as you think that's true for heterosexuality as well, that's a reasonable position.
Of course I do. You can't grow up anywhere and not have "nurture" play a part in every part of your life. We learn how to behave (to some degree) by watching our parents interact, watching people on TV, reading about people, etc. Hell, if it weren't for this forum, I would never have known to start peeing in my wife's butt.

The 3 strongest "instincts" we have are hunger, sleep, and sex. And every one of those has some "nurture" in them.
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Old 02-24-06, 02:22 PM   #110
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Dave,

IMO, 'nature' made me want to score with chicks, and 'nurture' taught me how.

At least, that's the way I see it.
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Old 02-24-06, 02:23 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geofferson
For women I agree. For men I disagree.
This is a good point. I don't think women would be any more likely to be gay based on genetics. However, men push society, and men like bisexuality in women, and men show approving bisexual women themes, and you end up with more women open to bisexuality. Even Lindsey Lohan wants Angela Jolie.....it's hip. Just part of "nurture" I would wager.
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Old 02-24-06, 02:48 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
This is a good point. I don't think women would be any more likely to be gay based on genetics. However, men push society, and men like bisexuality in women, and men show approving bisexual women themes, and you end up with more women open to bisexuality. Even Lindsey Lohan wants Angela Jolie.....it's hip. Just part of "nurture" I would wager.

This is an interesting topic, because I remember reading some research ( I will see if I can find a link) that differentiated gay men and women by their genetic propensities for homosexuality. If I remeber correctly, there was a significant difference in that, in women, there were significantly fewer people who 'knew' they were homosexual at an early age, than with men. Likewise, there was a stronger genetic link in the homosexuality for men (in general, but there was a subgroup of homosexual women who were similar to homosexual men).

I also remember reading a few studies (there haven't been many) on monozygotic (i.e. identical) twins that examined the genetic links of homosexuality. These type of studies where they can view identical twins that were raised in a shared in environment are the closest that we can come to identifying heredity (although far from perfect and conclusive).

I think it is beocming more and more clear that there is a genetic link behind homosexuality, but that this is only part of the picture. Anyone who thinks that there might be a 'gay' gene is oversimplyfying matters. There may be a group of genes that serve to raise the threshold for homosexuality (i.e. the level of propensity), but environmental components are probably necessary to equal a homosexual person.

I think one of the biggest problems with this debate is the false dichotomy of genetics vs choice. First off, as mentioned above, it is most likely not an either or situation. But more importantly, environmental influences do not equal choice. It can in some situations, but they are not necessarily the same thing. Framing the debate like this causes people to think that the nurture side of the argument implies that people are making a conscious choice to be gay. Just because nurture/ environment plays a part, does not mean in any way that someone can simply chose to be or not be gay. This doesn't mean it is impossible either, but given the nature of our society, it seems unlikely that there are a lot of people who consciously choose to be homosexual.
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Old 02-24-06, 03:11 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by dave-o
I think one of the biggest problems with this debate is the false dichotomy of genetics vs choice.
Strong agreement here. Even if genetics were entirely *disproved*, it remains a fact that homosexual desire is not a conscious choice for nearly all gay men and (perhaps) most women. And that trying to force oneself to be straight is a recipe for extreme repression and mental illness, not to mention bad marriages and families.

If non-genetic, non-choice/subconscious triggers exist, they can happen at puberty or long before, and certainly *don't* correspond to any specific family dysfunction or abuse patterns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave-o
it seems unlikely that there are a lot of people who consciously choose to be homosexual.
No shit. I'm amazed people think I would have signed up for this. Terrorized all through school? Scapegoat for every religious bigot? Constitutionally second-class in a dozen states and counting?
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Last edited by adamblast; 02-24-06 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 02-24-06, 04:06 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by adamblast
I'm amazed people think I would have signed up for this. Terrorized all through school? Scapegoat for every religious bigot? Constitutionally second-class in a dozen states and counting?


"Word, yo! No one would choose to be associated with a group of people who are looked down on by society."




I tend to agree with your point, but I also think there are people that choose to be something they probably aren't (yet aren't opposed to) because it is seen as rebellious or trendy.
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Old 02-24-06, 04:09 PM   #115
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[...] I also think there are people that choose to be something they probably aren't (yet aren't opposed to) because it is seen as rebellious or trendy.
You trying to say people aren't naturally Scientologists?
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Old 02-24-06, 04:15 PM   #116
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I think Tom Cruise is. The rest have (literally) bought into it.
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Old 02-24-06, 04:23 PM   #117
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[...] but I also think there are people that choose to be something they probably aren't (yet aren't opposed to) because it is seen as rebellious or trendy.
Take 2: Sure, but I think that's unlikely to be the case with very many gay folks... If all you want to do is piss off your parents, there's plenty of ways to accomplish that without giving blowjobs. It's really not that attractive a "club" from the outside for most people.
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Old 02-24-06, 04:30 PM   #118
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I would agree with the exception that the lesbian group (especially bisexual) is not near the stigma of the gay male group. But then, I would also think there are better ways to piss off your parents than doing this.....

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Old 02-24-06, 04:39 PM   #119
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I don't mean to be culturally insensitive, but I assume that guy's already *eaten* most of his family.
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Old 02-24-06, 04:43 PM   #120
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OK, I lied. I do mean to be culturally insensitive.
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Old 02-24-06, 04:50 PM   #121
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I thought it was a gal, but you might be right.
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Old 02-24-06, 04:55 PM   #122
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Who knows. I'm afraid I missed the curly golden locks at first glance.
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Old 02-24-06, 05:08 PM   #123
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Cool! Then you can tell us: is your Mom a man or a woman?
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Old 02-24-06, 05:55 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by wendersfan
So a boy raised by two gay men would learn how to tie a four-in-hand, a windsor, and learn how to sew their own clothes?

Cool!
My straight father taught his straight son (me) how to tie a windsor knot. I cannot stand those unsymmetrical wormlike monstrosities that pass for knots on most men's ties.

On the subject, I cannot imagine I could be gay no matter how or by whom I was "raised." Furthermore, I have asked many other straight people and not one of them can ever imagine it for themselves either.

It seems funny to me that straight people unanimously (in my experience) each thinks he or she could not have been "made" gay but some of them think that being "made" gay would run rampant in all those "other people" if they were "raised" a "certain" way or by "certain" people.

I realize this is not scientific (and also that some people are bi) but it is pretty strong evidence to me that orientation is biological/genetic. If it's not, as strong as orientation seems to be, I would think then nothing else behavioral is either. And I don't think that.
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Old 02-24-06, 05:59 PM   #125
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Cool! Then you can tell us: is your Mom a man or a woman?


It is pretty hair. But then I am jealous of most any hair.
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