Release List Reviews Shop Join News DVD Giveaways Video Games Advertise
DVD Reviews | Theatrical Reviews | Adult DVD Reviews | Video Game Reviews | Price Search Buy Stuff Here
DVD Talk
DVD Reviews DVD Talk Headlines HD Reviews


Add to My Yahoo! - RSS 2.0 - RSS 2.0 - DVD Talk Podcast RSS -


Go Back   DVD Talk Forum > General Discussions > Other Talk > Religion, Politics and World Events

Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-16-05, 11:57 AM   #1
Pharoh
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Sad day in Ohio
Posts: 23,593
What If US History Edition: Slavery

What if the Founders & Framers of the United States had truly confronted the issue of slavery in either '87 or '90? Would the Union have survived? Or would a civil war have broken out sixty years earlier than it did? Lastly, is the supposed preservation of the Union enough of a reason to forgive their abject failure in this matter?
__________________
Catalunya no Ús Espanya
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 11:59 AM   #2
Red Dog
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Directionally Challenged (for DirecTV)
Posts: 112,630
Were the Articles of Confederation silent on slavery?
__________________
"A question for you. Would you rather Bucknell make the NCAA's once every 20 years or so and get ass raped by teams like Kansas in the first round or have them drop down a rung to a confernce where they can compete for a title?"
- Josh Hinkle
1st Round Final Scores: Bucknell 64 Kansas 63 | Bucknell 59 Arkansas 55
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 12:04 PM   #3
Pharoh
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Sad day in Ohio
Posts: 23,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Dog
Were the Articles of Confederation silent on slavery?

For the most part.
__________________
Catalunya no Ús Espanya
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 12:05 PM   #4
Rockmjd23
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: MA
Posts: 17,001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Dog
Were the Articles of Confederation silent on slavery?
Yes, no mention of it. All such powers to regulate are given to individual states.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 12:07 PM   #5
Red Dog
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Directionally Challenged (for DirecTV)
Posts: 112,630
Then I don't think the southern states would have ratified the Constitution if there was a 13th amendment in it.
__________________
"A question for you. Would you rather Bucknell make the NCAA's once every 20 years or so and get ass raped by teams like Kansas in the first round or have them drop down a rung to a confernce where they can compete for a title?"
- Josh Hinkle
1st Round Final Scores: Bucknell 64 Kansas 63 | Bucknell 59 Arkansas 55
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 12:10 PM   #6
classicman2
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 68,049
Compromise on slavery became an impossibility once the abolitionists made a moral issue of the institution. We have a modern day equivalency - it's called abortion.

The framers of the Constitution did, in away, confront the issue of slavery - at least the slaves.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 12:12 PM   #7
classicman2
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 68,049
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Dog
Then I don't think the southern states would have ratified the Constitution if there was a 13th amendment in it.
I know for certain the southern states would not have ratified the Constitution with the presence of the Thirteenth Amendment.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 12:13 PM   #8
Pharoh
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Sad day in Ohio
Posts: 23,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Dog
Then I don't think the southern states would have ratified the Constitution if there was a 13th amendment in it.


I think it would have all been up to Virginia. Perhaps only South Carolina would have held out, particularly if George Washington spoke out on the issue. Besides, it would not have been a complete and immediate emancipation. Any such action during that time would have surely contained provisions to relocate the slave population out of the Colonies.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 12:15 PM   #9
Rockmjd23
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: MA
Posts: 17,001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Dog
Then I don't think the southern states would have ratified the Constitution if there was a 13th amendment in it.
Yeah definitely not. Nor would their delegates have signed the Declaration of Independence if Jefferson and Adams hadn't given up the anti-slavery parts.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 12:15 PM   #10
Pharoh
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Sad day in Ohio
Posts: 23,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by classicman2
Compromise on slavery became an impossibility once the abolitionists made a moral issue of the institution. We have a modern day equivalency - it's called abortion.

The framers of the Constitution did, in away, confront the issue of slavery - at least the slaves.


They confronted it by making it almost impossible to even discuss it. And even realist proponents of slavery made a moral issue out of it. It was not allowed to continue and flourish because of this.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 12:21 PM   #11
classicman2
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 68,049
I assume most folks believe that John C. Calhoun was the principal proponent of the institution - I don't, but most people do. Calhoun's 'defense' was not a moral one. His defense was a Constitutional one - The Tenth Amendment. Calhoun was a pure Constitutionist.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 12:28 PM   #12
Pharoh
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Sad day in Ohio
Posts: 23,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by classicman2
I assume most folks believe that John C. Calhoun was the principal proponent of the institution - I don't, but most people do. Calhoun's 'defense' was not a moral one. His defense was a Constitutional one - The Tenth Amendment. Calhoun was a pure Constitutionist.


I don't care about that time. Once 1790 came and went, (thanks to Madison), the issue was dead, there no longer was any possibility for action. John Calhoun is almost irrelevant to the discussion, completely to this discussion.

My comments on the moral aspect were meant to demonstrate that most of those who accepted slavery, and who believed it should be maintained for financial and logistical reasonings, believe it to be a moral wrong and incongruous with the Declaration. Which itself points out a rather amusing hypocritical argument employed by the proslavery South.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 12:44 PM   #13
classicman2
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 68,049
I fail to see what the author of this thread is attempting to ascertain.

There wouldn't have been a constitution if by confrontation you mean that it was confronted in 1789 as it was in 1856 - 1860. There wouldn't have been a union to preserve.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 12:47 PM   #14
Red Dog
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Directionally Challenged (for DirecTV)
Posts: 112,630
Quote:
Originally Posted by classicman2
There wouldn't have been a constitution if by confrontation you mean that it was confronted in 1789 as it was in 1856 - 1860. There wouldn't have been a union to preserve.

Yeah, no offense, Pharoh, but I don't think it is a very thought-provoking What If question. I think it is pretty much a slam-dunk.
__________________
"A question for you. Would you rather Bucknell make the NCAA's once every 20 years or so and get ass raped by teams like Kansas in the first round or have them drop down a rung to a confernce where they can compete for a title?"
- Josh Hinkle
1st Round Final Scores: Bucknell 64 Kansas 63 | Bucknell 59 Arkansas 55
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 12:48 PM   #15
Rockmjd23
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: MA
Posts: 17,001
I guess the answer to "Would the Union have survived?" is that the Union wouldn't have been formed, but I'm not sure what the OP is aiming at either.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 12:49 PM   #16
OldDude
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: MI
Posts: 24,747
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmjd23
Yeah definitely not. Nor would their delegates have signed the Declaration of Independence if Jefferson and Adams hadn't given up the anti-slavery parts.
We'd still be singing "God Save the Queen" and bitching about the Tea Tax.
__________________
9/11/2001 - You have awakened a sleeping giant, and filled him with a terrible resolve. - paraphrased from Yamamoto
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 02:04 PM   #17
JasonF
DVD Talk Hero
 
JasonF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 34,251
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDude
We'd still be singing "God Save the Queen" and bitching about the Tea Tax.
Boy, can you even imagine a Politics Talk filled with threads bitching about a tax? It's inconceivable!
__________________
These are my DVDs
360 GamerTag: William T Bunny
PSN ID: William_T_Bunny
"JasonF can do no wrong!" -- Rockmjd23
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 02:31 PM   #18
OldDude
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: MI
Posts: 24,747
My present taxation probably makes the Tea Tax look damn attractive.
__________________
9/11/2001 - You have awakened a sleeping giant, and filled him with a terrible resolve. - paraphrased from Yamamoto
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 02:32 PM   #19
Pharoh
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Sad day in Ohio
Posts: 23,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Dog
Yeah, no offense, Pharoh, but I don't think it is a very thought-provoking What If question. I think it is pretty much a slam-dunk.


No offense taken.




My point is the window of opportunity to confront slavery, confront it with a halt to new importations of slaves and a set timetable for the gradual emancipation of slaves along with the financial recourses necessary, was closed after 1790. It had to be confronted the way it was sixty years laters precisely because it was not confronted when it could have been. More to point, I maintain that the issue could have been dealt with, particularly in 1790 after the Constitution was ratified, and to a lesser degree back in 1787 in Philadelphia. There could have been a Union and it could have survived. Virginian leaders were eminently aware of the gross moral inconsistencies between slavery and their prized ideology of '76 could have been persuaded. They knew they were wrong and would not have wanted to have been on such a wrong side of history. Furhter, if Virginia went for a gradual emancipation plan, led by Washington and Madison, the deep south would have went with them. Something could have been done and with the Union still in place.

I realise and accept that it is conventional wisdom to say the only way for the Constitution to have been ratified and for the Union to have subsequently been kept together was for the slavery issue to have been ignored. It does not mean I have to go along fully with that wisdom, nor do I have to blindly accept the free pass given to the Founders/Framers, particularly those from the Old Dominion, whose excuse is always given that the preservation of the Union was more important. For men to have created a Republic unlike any other in the history of mankind, I think more was certainly possible.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 02:33 PM   #20
Pharoh
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Sad day in Ohio
Posts: 23,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDude
We'd still be singing "God Save the Queen" and bitching about the Tea Tax.

Nah, the creation of an 'American' state was an inevitability.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 02:42 PM   #21
OldDude
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: MI
Posts: 24,747
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharoh
Nah, the creation of an 'American' state was an inevitability.
We didn't win by very much. If a few "slave" colonies had stayed out, we could have lost. Victory at least would have been much more unlikely.
__________________
9/11/2001 - You have awakened a sleeping giant, and filled him with a terrible resolve. - paraphrased from Yamamoto
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 02:59 PM   #22
Th0r S1mpson
DVD Talk Hero
 
Th0r S1mpson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 36,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by classicman2
I know for certain the southern states would not have ratified the Constitution with the presence of the Thirteenth Amendment.
What if they reworded it as follows:
Quote:
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Being a descendent of the Dark Continent constitutes a crime punishable by enslavement.

Section 3. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
__________________

http://savejace.info/
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 03:21 PM   #23
Pharoh
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Sad day in Ohio
Posts: 23,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDude
We didn't win by very much. If a few "slave" colonies had stayed out, we could have lost. Victory at least would have been much more unlikely.


I should have been more clear. An American nation was an inevitability even if the Revolution had never taken place. What that nation would have looked like, I can not say.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 03:27 PM   #24
classicman2
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 68,049
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharoh
I should have been more clear. An American nation was an inevitability even if the Revolution had never taken place. What that nation would have looked like, I can not say.
I disagree.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-05, 03:37 PM   #25
darkessenz
DVD Talk Special Edition
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: MI
Posts: 1,924
Something that I always wondered about is: Why arent there more problems with north-south relations? In other places in the world, the South's sense of "separateness" could have caused plenty of terror like actions, especially after losing a civil war.

I guess I want to know how an idea of "1" America was saved, despite the significant cultural and economic differences between the north and the south.
  Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:14 PM.

Rules - DVD Talk - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0
Copyright 2011 DVDTalk.com All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.