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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 06-09-05, 05:42 PM   #1
mikehunt
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Rangel once again makes an ass of himself. Holocaust comparison this time

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/sto...p-271348c.html
Quote:
Rangel in 'Holocaust' firestorm

Charlie Rangel likened Iraq to Holocaust.
Powerful lawmaker Charlie Rangel has provoked the ire of the Anti-Defamation League by likening U.S. military action in Iraq to the Holocaust of World War II.

The Iraq war "is the biggest fraud ever committed on the people of this country. ... This is just as bad as the 6 million Jews being killed," the 74-year-old Harlem Democrat insisted during a Monday radio appearance on the WWRL-AM morning show with Steve Malzberg and Karen Hunter. "The whole world knew and they were quiet about it because it wasn't their ox being gored."

When interviewer Malzberg challenged Rangel's analogy, the congressman replied: "I am saying that people's silence when they know things terrible are happening is the same thing as the Holocaust."

Yesterday, after Malzberg sent me an audiotape of Rangel's appearance, ADL President Abraham Foxman responded: "It is so outrageous that a leader of Congress would compare one thing to the other. Sometimes we say it's ignorance. Charlie Rangel is not ignorant. Charlie Rangel has been there."

On the radio show, Rangel also suggested that proponents of military action - namely Vice President Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Rumsfeld's former deputy Paul Wolfowitz and Pentagon adviser Richard Perle - don't worry about the Americans in Iraq because they're "black and poor white soldiers" from "the lower economic class."

"They had a plan to put our kids in harm's way long before 9/11," Rangel said. "Because it's not their kids ... that's exactly why. They go and pick a fight, and then say, 'I'll hold your coat.'"

Foxman retorted: "It is so outrageous that I think he owes an apology not only to the families of the victims of the Shoah, but he also owes an apology to the soldiers who are fighting for freedom.

"If the world had recognized the evil of Hitler early enough - just like we're confronting the evil of terrorism and fundamentalism now - then maybe the 6 million wouldn't have died."
he even managed to throw out the "administration is out to kill blacks" crap too
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Old 06-09-05, 05:48 PM   #2
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Someday this man will curl up and die and the world will be free of the bile he spews out.
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Old 06-09-05, 06:31 PM   #3
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If that's like the Holocaust, then what the hell were our wars with Vietnam and Korea?
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Old 06-09-05, 06:39 PM   #4
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Wow. He really is stupid. Of course, correlating his intelligence with other members of Congress, he gets a B average.
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Old 06-09-05, 06:41 PM   #5
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What a fucking retard. Everytime he opens his mouth. It's no wonder the democratic party is on the ropes.
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Old 06-09-05, 06:43 PM   #6
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If that's like the Holocaust, then what the hell were our wars with Vietnam and Korea?
Actually I think he's talking more to the analogy of people knowing things, not speaking up and just letting it happen choosing to let themselves be misled instead. The problem is a vast majority of people during WW2 didn't know about the death camps until it was over and even then some still didn't believe it was true (or that the scale of it was true). So this comparison doesn't hold water since I believe there are a lot more people out there questioning what this admin is doing and what's going on in Iraq more so than anyone in Germany at the time would have, if they would have even suspected anything in the first place. Unfortnately I believe in general people think they know more than they actually do about what's going on in Iraq. I don't think it's a purposeful fraud perse but I believe each side is using their propaganda machines to put the spin on the news that they want people to hear.

Overall though I think it's a horribly inaccurate comparison, but frankly I expect nothing less taking the source into consideration.
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Old 06-09-05, 07:07 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger
If that's like the Holocaust, then what the hell were our wars with Vietnam and Korea?
Culinary research?

PHỞ anyone?
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Old 06-09-05, 07:32 PM   #8
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nemein,

Good points. I don't think we have a tight circle of "conspiracy" either.

It's a situation where we have businesses making shitloads of money the longer they are there, because the US government will eventually write off all the debt--or most of it, which means this money gets kicked back to US businesses. They are literally writing their own tickets as we speak when it comes to construction and labor costs.

Now here's the damaging part. The US is writing off the "Iraqi Debt" because it wants to portray itself as a caring nation, willing to do whatever it takes. Well, this works out quite nice for US contractors and anyone else who knows a politician in Congress, because the chances are very high their expenses will be automatically paid by the US government, without ANY question. We as taxpayers are footing the bill every year, while holding virtually no one else responsible.

But this will all come out several years from now, when Bush is out of office and of course, the finger-pointing will continue. I should note that Democrats are benefiting from the war just as much as Republicans. It's a bi-partisan scam, and probably one of the biggest I have ever seen.

Now here's the thing. Most of you may not know that I was originally for the invasion of Iraq. I still am. I think Saddam was a bastard and needed to be ousted before something really shitty happened. However, as the years go by, I can't help but see how the plan has changed, and it's changed for the worse.
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Old 06-09-05, 08:56 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Thor Simpson
Culinary research?

PHỞ anyone?
No thank you. I'm in more of a yuk kae jang sort of mood.
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Old 06-09-05, 09:42 PM   #10
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Being a jew and having lost family in the holocaust, it really bothers me how easily and loosely people compare it to just about everything they don't like. It's pathetic.
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Old 06-09-05, 10:30 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by General Zod
Being a jew and having lost family in the holocaust, it really bothers me how easily and loosely people compare it to just about everything they don't like. It's pathetic.
I concur.
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Old 06-09-05, 11:41 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by General Zod
Being a jew and having lost family in the holocaust, it really bothers me how easily and loosely people compare it to just about everything they don't like. It's pathetic.
Absolutely true. Anything compared to the Holocaust does nothing but diminish the terrible reality that was the Holocaust. Sitting here I can't even think of a comparison that might be close to doing it justice.
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Old 06-10-05, 12:33 AM   #13
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Not only that, but comparing people to Nazis as well. I may not like some of the issues Bush or his administration have decided on, but they far from being Nazis. Nazis and Holocaust should be a term used only when describing each other, from that time period.
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Old 06-10-05, 12:37 AM   #14
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Sitting here I can't even think of a comparison that might be close to doing it justice.
The Stalin purges come to mind. Both horrific events.
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Old 06-10-05, 02:52 AM   #15
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Pretty much any genocide is bad, from Pol Pot's genocide in Cambodia to Mao's Great Leap Forward, to what's going on in Somalia today, to the Turkish genocide of the Armenians. I'm not sure I see the profit in trying to rank them from best to worst.

And while I don't like the fact that we're in Iraq, I think a comparison to the Holocaust is thoroughly inappropriate. We aren't intentionally killing anyone (at least not anyone who's not actively trying to kill us), let alone trying to wipe an entire group of people off the face of the earth.
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Old 06-10-05, 05:15 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by JasonF
Pretty much any genocide is bad, from Pol Pot's genocide in Cambodia to Mao's Great Leap Forward, to what's going on in Somalia today, to the Turkish genocide of the Armenians. I'm not sure I see the profit in trying to rank them from best to worst.

But I think that's the problem. I know I've certainly tried to point out this out in the past here on dvdtalk but no one will agree. At least not openly. I'm also sure I'll be tagged as "anti-semetic" for even daring to think this way but somehow everyone else's "genocides" always has to take a back seat to "The Holocaust". They've all been ranked behind "the big one". They're -all- horrific moments in human history. They do nothing but showcase the sicker side of man and none of them should be diminished or forced to take a backseat to any other similar situation.
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Old 06-10-05, 08:45 AM   #17
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Someday this man will curl up and die and the world will be free of the bile he spews out.
That's the pot calling the kettle black
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Old 06-10-05, 10:10 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Giantrobo
But I think that's the problem. I know I've certainly tried to point out this out in the past here on dvdtalk but no one will agree. At least not openly. I'm also sure I'll be tagged as "anti-semetic" for even daring o think this way but somehow everyone else's "genocides" always has to take a back seat to "The Holocaust". They've all been ranked behind "the big one". They're -all- horrific moments in human history. They do nothing but showcase the sicker side of man and none of them should be diminished or forced to take a backseat to any other similar situation.

Thats what I think as well. It is bad what happened, but the yearly reminders, constant press coverage, just drives me crazy. Its like, the same news story being on repeat, throughout the year. Is this the only 'genocide' that matters? apparently ...
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Old 06-10-05, 10:13 AM   #19
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I thought this was another "The Holocaust never happened" dude.
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Old 06-10-05, 10:26 AM   #20
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Dean and Rangel are doing wonders for the Dem party these days.
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Old 06-10-05, 10:38 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by bhk
The Stalin purges come to mind. Both horrific events.
I actually thought of that one, and decided it wasn't a good analogy for two reasons (which could easily be argued the other way). The first is that it was effectively a civil matter where he killed his own. Doesn't make it less pretty, but seems different than rounding up Jews from where ever you can get them to kill them. Stalin was not ethnically motivated, to my knowledge.

The second reason is that it was relatively unknown. That doesn't make the actual even any less horrific, but it seems to lack the "punch" of the Holocaust, because everyone knew exactly what was going on, and did nothing for some time, and when they did act, it was not mainly because of the extermination of the Jews, but for self preservation reasons.
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Old 06-10-05, 10:48 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Giantrobo
But I think that's the problem. I know I've certainly tried to point out this out in the past here on dvdtalk but no one will agree. At least not openly. I'm also sure I'll be tagged as "anti-semetic" for even daring to think this way but somehow everyone else's "genocides" always has to take a back seat to "The Holocaust". They've all been ranked behind "the big one". They're -all- horrific moments in human history. They do nothing but showcase the sicker side of man and none of them should be diminished or forced to take a backseat to any other similar situation.
All genocide is beyond horrible. That goes without saying. I think the Holocaust sticks out because of the systematic assembly line mass market "efficiency" the Nazis applied. Another reason I think the Jewish part of the Holocaust sticks out is that the Jews had such a long, uninterrupted history of being persecuted, probably more than any other group of people. But we should never forget that (according to the best evidence) almost half of those murdered by the Nazis were non-Jews (5 million out of 11 million). And we should never forget any other genocide either.

From an objective point of view, I think you're absolutely right.
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Old 06-10-05, 10:58 AM   #23
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Even though I can see the point, I still think the difference in those genocides is that the others mentioned killed "their own" for lack of a better term. They may not have been the same this, or the same that, but they were still citizens of the country. Again, that doesn't make the deed less horrific, but it does make it of a different kind.
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Old 06-10-05, 11:28 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
Even though I can see the point, I still think the difference in those genocides is that the others mentioned killed "their own" for lack of a better term. They may not have been the same this, or the same that, but they were still citizens of the country. Again, that doesn't make the deed less horrific, but it does make it of a different kind.
Well, the Nazis killed their "own" German Jews, German Gypsies, German homosexuals etc.

But you're right, other genocides did not pour out over national borders nearly as much as the Holocaust. I can accept that as another reason the Holocaust sticks out.

Your factor, along with my two are all emotional reasons for seeing the Holocaust as somehow worse. I do not want to say the emotions involved are not legitimate or important. But I do believe, as I said above, that from an objective point of view, Giantrobo is right.
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Old 06-10-05, 12:18 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
Not only that, but comparing people to Nazis as well. I may not like some of the issues Bush or his administration have decided on, but they far from being Nazis. Nazis and Holocaust should be a term used only when describing each other, from that time period.
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