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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 10-06-04, 10:01 AM   #1
bfrank
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Report Discounts Iraqi Arms Threat

The government's most definitive account of Iraq (news - web sites)'s arms programs, to be released today, will show that Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) posed a diminishing threat at the time the United States invaded and did not possess, or have concrete plans to develop, nuclear, chemical or biological weapons, U.S. officials said yesterday.


The officials said that the 1,000-page report by Charles A. Duelfer, the chief U.S. weapons inspector in Iraq, concluded that Hussein had the desire but not the means to produce unconventional weapons that could threaten his neighbors or the West. President Bush (news - web sites) has continued to assert in his campaign stump speech that Iraq had posed "a gathering threat."


The officials said Duelfer, an experienced former United Nations (news - web sites) weapons inspector, found that the state of Hussein's weapons-development programs and knowledge base was less advanced in 2003, when the war began, than it was in 1998, when international inspectors left Iraq.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...a9790_2004oct5

Can we now say this is fact or will this report be attacked also?
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Old 10-06-04, 10:05 AM   #2
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No WMDs?!?!?!?!

Say it aint so. There's no way mister "honor and dignity back in the Whitehouse" could have misled us.

I think I detect a superscript.
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Old 10-06-04, 10:09 AM   #3
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Quote:
Hussein had the desire but not the means to produce unconventional weapons
This is the key phrase IMHO. I think everyone was in agreement the sanctions weren't going to hold too much longer. So once the shackles (such as there were) were off what do you think would have happened? Of course we'll argue over whether or not the action was appropriate given that notion but IMHO, and many seem to agree, the world is better w/o SH in power. Then again since the end of GW1 I suspected we were going to have problems down the road and SH needed to be removed from power anyway so even if the admin simply said they went in to remove SH from power I probably would have agreed w/ the action.

The other issue that I would like to hear more about but noone ever seems to address is why, if there was nothing going on, did SH still play games w/ the inspectors?
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Old 10-06-04, 10:14 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by chess
No WMDs?!?!?!?!

Say it aint so. There's no way mister "honor and dignity back in the Whitehouse" could have misled us.

I think I detect a superscript.
Does this report say that Bush/admin misled anyone? It sounded to me like it's a report on the state of affairs in hindsight, not commenting on the level of intel we had when the decision to invade was made.
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Old 10-06-04, 10:17 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by nemein
Does this report say that Bush/admin misled anyone? It sounded to me like it's a report on the state of affairs in hindsight, not commenting on the level of intel we had when the decision to invade was made.
Actually, I meant to imply that it was old news.

The only people on the planet who think they were there at this point is the administration and watchers of Fox News.
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Old 10-06-04, 10:33 AM   #6
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A more detailed look reveals that Saddam was only a few months away from being able to produce Mustard Gas and a year or 2 away from Nerve gas. He was also developing longer range missiles than he was supposed to.
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Old 10-06-04, 10:46 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by bhk
A more detailed look reveals that Saddam was only a few months away from being able to produce Mustard Gas and a year or 2 away from Nerve gas. He was also developing longer range missiles than he was supposed to.
...next on Fox News...after these messages from Halliburton...Are the terrorists poisoning your baby food? Is it John Kerry's fault?
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Old 10-06-04, 10:48 AM   #8
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Are we all agreed that Saddam was able to mislead European/US intelligence services over the last 12 years, regardless of who was the US president and Rep/Dem saw Saddam as a WMD threat?
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Old 10-06-04, 10:51 AM   #9
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absolutely...one side just seemed a hell of a lot more certain than the other...and were clearly "spinning" for war. I even thought so at the time.

of course i'm admittedly biased and didn't trust them in the first place.
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Old 10-06-04, 10:55 AM   #10
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For the lazy here's the entire article, my talking points from above (maybe I should have read the entire article before making the first post ) are highlighted

Quote:
The government's most definitive account of Iraq (news - web sites)'s arms programs, to be released today, will show that Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) posed a diminishing threat at the time the United States invaded and did not possess, or have concrete plans to develop, nuclear, chemical or biological weapons, U.S. officials said yesterday.


The officials said that the 1,000-page report by Charles A. Duelfer, the chief U.S. weapons inspector in Iraq, concluded that Hussein had the desire but not the means to produce unconventional weapons that could threaten his neighbors or the West. President Bush (news - web sites) has continued to assert in his campaign stump speech that Iraq had posed "a gathering threat."

The officials said Duelfer, an experienced former United Nations (news - web sites) weapons inspector, found that the state of Hussein's weapons-development programs and knowledge base was less advanced in 2003, when the war began, than it was in 1998, when international inspectors left Iraq.

"They have not found anything yet," said one U.S. official who had been briefed on the report.

A senior U.S. government official said that the report includes comments Hussein made to debriefers after his capture that bolster administration assertions, including his statement that his past possession of weapons of mass destruction "was one of the reasons he had survived so long." He also maintained such weapons saved his government by halting Iranian ground offensives during the Iran-Iraq war and deterred coalition forces from pressing on to Baghdad during the 1991 Persian Gulf War (news - web sites), the official said.

The official also said that Duelfer's Iraq Survey Group had uncovered Iraqi plans for ballistic missiles with ranges from 400 to 1,000 kilometers and for a 1,000-kilometer-range cruise missile, farther than the 150-kilometer range permitted by the United Nations, the senior official said.

The official said Duelfer will tell Congress in the report and in testimony today that Hussein intended to reconstitute weapons of mass destruction programs if he were freed of the U.N. sanctions that prevented him from getting needed materials.

Duelfer's report said Hussein was pursuing an aggressive effort to subvert the international sanctions through illegal financing and procurement efforts, officials said. The official said the report states that Hussein had the intent to resume full-scale weapons of mass destruction efforts after the sanctions were eliminated, and details Hussein's efforts to hinder international inspectors and preserve his weapons of mass destruction capabilities.

Rep. Jane Harman (news, bio, voting record) (D-Calif.), vice chairman of the House intelligence committee, said she had not read Duelfer's report but has been told that it thoroughly undercuts the administration's assertions that Iraq posed a serious threat.

"Intentions do not constitute a growing danger," Harman said. "It's hardly mushroom clouds, hardly stockpiles," she added, a reference to administration rhetoric used in the run-up to the war.

The report's release comes at a point in the presidential campaign when Democratic candidate John F. Kerry is aggressively challenging the Bush administration about its prewar justifications for invading Iraq, which centered largely on the contention that Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction. People familiar with the report said it is being released today because Duelfer was ready and his schedule permitted him to testify to Congress.

Yesterday, administration officials discussed some of the report's findings publicly, arguing that it showed Hussein was a long-term threat even though no weapons of mass destruction were found.

White House press secretary Scott McClellan called Hussein's effort to evade the U.N. sanctions "very revealing." "We all thought that we would find stockpiles, and that was not the case," McClellan said.

"The fact that he had the intent and capability, and that he was trying to undermine the sanctions that were in place is very disturbing. And I think the report will continue to show that he was a gathering threat that needed to be taken seriously, that it was a matter of time before he was going to begin pursuing those weapons of mass destruction."

The report includes page after page of names of individuals and companies -- many from China, Russia and France -- that had traded illegally with Iraq, the senior government official said. The State Department began briefing the named governments on the report yesterday, the official said.

Duelfer's findings follow reports by the Senate intelligence committee and his predecessor, David A. Kay, that criticized the prewar assessment that Iraq had chemical and biological weapons. But Bush has pointed to the Duelfer report as the last word on the state of Iraq's weapons programs. Asked in June if he thought such weapons had existed in Iraq, Bush said he would "wait until Charlie gets back with the final report."

Another government official who was briefed on the report said that many U.S. officials had thought Hussein would "get down to business" in developing weapons when the U.N. inspectors left. "There's no evidence of that," the official said.



The official said that Iraq's nuclear-related activity in particular had been dormant for years before the invasion. "They probably didn't have a program for some period of time, well before we went in there," he said.

The Bush administration has held out the possibility that illicit weapons and their components were secreted by Hussein across the border into Syria. This may still be true, but Duelfer's team did not find any proof to support this notion, the official said. "They have no evidence of this," the official said. "It's an unresolved issue." Syria denies it aided the hiding of illicit materials.

Duelfer replaced Kay in January as the chief U.S. weapons hunter after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. In title, he was the CIA (news - web sites)'s special adviser for strategy regarding Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. As head of the Iraq Survey Group, he worked independent of the CIA and his report was not vetted or changed by the agency, said one U.S. government official familiar with Duelfer's work.

The president met with Duelfer at the White House on Feb. 6. Bush said during a prime-time news conference in April that during Duelfer's return to Iraq, he had been "amazed at how deceptive the Iraqis had been" toward U.N. inspectors, as well as "deceptive in hiding things."


The report also includes an investigation of a broad range of subjects that are either loosely or not at all connected to weapons of mass destruction, a foreign intelligence official said. These include Iraq's conventional weapons programs, evidence of corruption and abuse in the U.N.-monitored oil-for-food program, and dual-use equipment -- which could be used for either peaceful or military programs -- that U.N. inspectors may not have been aware of.
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Old 10-06-04, 10:56 AM   #11
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You know we had huge debates here in the Other forum about this. It was and absolute fact "." in the eyes of many. Those of us that could see through the political spin of the admin were vilified and discounted as partisans by the supporters of the Admin. It even cost some their membership here.

Then we had the systematic character assassination of every official or report that came forward suggesting that there were no WMD.

When will those that were so vocal here admit they were wrong (or mislead by the admin) on this issue?

So again is this report the final word on this or is there still those here that believe that this report is wrong?
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Old 10-06-04, 10:58 AM   #12
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Quote:
When will those that were so vocal here admit they were wrong (or mislead by the admin) on this issue?
Were we wrong about there being WMD? It would seem so.

Were we wrong about all signs pointing to there being WMD? I don't think so, I imagine you disagree.

Personally I also disagree w/ the notion the admin mislead anyone but I suspect you'll disagree w/ me on that assessment as well
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Old 10-06-04, 10:58 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by chess
absolutely...one side just seemed a hell of a lot more certain than the other...and were clearly "spinning" for war. I even thought so at the time.

of course i'm admittedly biased and didn't trust them in the first place.
I agree. Even if we all agreed that Saddam could have had WMD, I for one found it a stretch that Saddam could actually deliver the goods in the US.
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Old 10-06-04, 10:59 AM   #14
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Let me be clear the question is not was SH a threat- this has never been an issue to the opposition. And this line is an example of the sliding of the justification for the war as facts have become available.

Strictly on the WMD that many here argued strongly that were FACT “.”
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Old 10-06-04, 11:01 AM   #15
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It was an absolute fact for me, and depite the attempts to make it so, that belief for most of us was not based soley on the words of the Bush administration. That's why it is completely incorrect to pretend that the existence of WMD was a partisan issue. The threat that those supposed WMDs posed and the action we should have taken was a more partisan discussion.
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Old 10-06-04, 11:02 AM   #16
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Quote:
And this line is an example of the sliding of the justification for the war as facts have become available.
I disagree w/ that notion too. The points/reasoning were laid out clearly at the onset and they have predominately stuck to it (hasn't that been one of the criticism is that the admin won't change it's views in light of the changing situation on the ground?). The "sliding justification" has come from what people focus on at any given time. All the points were there before though.
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Old 10-06-04, 11:05 AM   #17
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I would say this is a non story. Kerry keeps trying to make this a story but can't get away from his own past where he was also convinced SH had WMD. If you never believed SH had WMD, you get a cookie because you were right when 99% of the world was wrong. But that's all you get.....a cookie.

I hope Kerry keeps pushing this as well. If he has any hope of winning he needs to go with an issue that he has actually held the same position on for the past year. Don't know that there is one, though.
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Old 10-06-04, 11:07 AM   #18
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hey dave:

What kind of cookie?

even though I don't get one
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Old 10-06-04, 11:09 AM   #19
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I agree that the threat was enough justification. I would guess that that alone was not enough to sell the idea to the American public.

This is the tough catch in this mess. My main opposition came from the exaggeration. But without it would there have been support. I understand this contradiction in my position and can see why Bush felt it was right to deceive for the bigger good. I just disagreed with the way he did it and the cost to US relations world wide. We now know that the threat was far from imminent. There was time to deal with SH in a better way.
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Old 10-06-04, 11:16 AM   #20
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Quote:
This is the tough catch in this mess. My main opposition came from the exaggeration. But without it would there have been support. I understand this contradiction in my position and can see why Bush felt it was right to deceive for the bigger good. I just disagreed with the way he did it and the cost to US relations world wide. We now know that the threat was far from imminent. There was time to deal with SH in a better way.
Now it is your position that Bush did the Jedi mind-trick on all of the intelligence agencies in the world and commanded them to say SH had weapons of mass destruction.
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Old 10-06-04, 11:20 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by kvrdave
I would say this is a non story. Kerry keeps trying to make this a story but can't get away from his own past where he was also convinced SH had WMD. If you never believed SH had WMD, you get a cookie because you were right when 99% of the world was wrong. But that's all you get.....a cookie.

I hope Kerry keeps pushing this as well. If he has any hope of winning he needs to go with an issue that he has actually held the same position on for the past year. Don't know that there is one, though.
Will you be sending out these cookies soon? I'd like something in a chocolate chip...preferably homemade by Mrs. kvr.
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Old 10-06-04, 11:20 AM   #22
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Quote:
can see why Bush felt it was right to deceive for the bigger good
This is my main problem w/ this debate... whether you agree w/ what we did in Iraq or not the supportable evidence that the admin purposefully deceived the US/world just isn't there. I have yet to see anyone offer definitive proof that the admin knew w/ 100% certainty that SH didn't have WMD but pushed the agenda anyway. Does anyone have a link/info that supports this? Every report from the inspectors IIRC came back w/ we didn't find anything yet but SH isn't fully cooperating as he's supposed to be. There were lists, from the UN, of unaccounted for WMD and noone had a reasonable explaination as to what happened to it, unless you count "they were destroyed and we lost/destroy/didn't keep records of it" as reasonable.
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Old 10-06-04, 11:23 AM   #23
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Quote:
I would say this is a non story. Kerry keeps trying to make this a story but can't get away from his own past where he was also convinced SH had WMD. If you never believed SH had WMD, you get a cookie because you were right when 99% of the world was wrong. But that's all you get.....a cookie.
A cookie and the comfort of knowing that Saddam was defying the world and the US and would get away with it. And the knowledge that he was free to continue killing as many of his own people as he wanted to.
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Old 10-06-04, 11:38 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by chess
Will you be sending out these cookies soon? I'd like something in a chocolate chip...preferably homemade by Mrs. kvr.
Sure You and bfrank get cookies.

Anyone else tries, and they are liars, though.
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Old 10-06-04, 11:39 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by nemein
This is my main problem w/ this debate... whether you agree w/ what we did in Iraq or not the supportable evidence that the admin purposefully deceived the US/world just isn't there. I have yet to see anyone offer definitive proof that the admin knew w/ 100% certainty that SH didn't have WMD but pushed the agenda anyway.
That's true. I don't believe the administration knew 100% there was no WMDs. I believed there were, almost everyone I know believed they were there. I do take issue with the fact that the administration attempted to sell it as a 100% guarantee that they did exist. I don't have any quotes to throw at you, but the prevailing idea seemed to be you're stupid if you believe Saddam doesn't have WMDs. It turns out there was dissent among our own intelligence community, but of course we didn't hear about that. I have yet to see anyone offer definitive proof that the admin didn't know that some in the intelligence community disagreed with the SH/WMD assessment. Someone was supressing that intelligence, and whether it was GWB or some spook working in the CIA, the current admin bears the responsibility for that failure.
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