Is anybody else sick and tired of this peace process crap?

[ukywyldcat]

No articles to post on this one. Is anyone else tired of all this peace process crap with Hezbollah/Lebanon and Israel? I am. These people are fucking terrorists. No deals should be offered. We hunt them down, kill them, and move on. End of story. Anyone agree, or what? I feel better now.

[VinVega]

I'm tired of seeing my gas prices go up because of this.

[Ranger]

actually i don't think gas prices have went up much at all since the recent mideast conflict.

I do get tired of how the us is so heavily involved with it. i'd prefer it if we just mind our own business and let israel take care of things. look back in history and see how many presidents wasted their time with this crap.

[ukywyldcat]

I'm tired of all the sorrow in the Arab world everytime some of their "innocent" civilians get killed. These same people were dancing and filled with glee when 9/11 happened. So an apartment full of women and children, and fighting men, gets wiped out. So be it. The men deserve to die because they are terrorists, and represent the worst kind of coward hiding behind civilian targets. The civilian targets deserve to die because they were too stupid to move themselves and their children out of a house that has a rocket or a group of fighters in the basement. I dunno, call me crazy, but if the US government wants to house their weapons in my basement or hide their men in my basement, I go somewhere else, even if just down the street. I don't wanna hear this "we couldn't go anywhere shit". Sell that story to someone who is willing to buy it. I just can't take the news anymore. I'm sick of the pity and the anti-terror war stance, and the anti-US and anti-Israel stance. We are at war. Fucking deal with it.

I'm going to have to start watching reruns of sitcoms and cancel my two paper subscriptions and become a real carbon blob. Its just getting to be too much.

[Jason]

I'm tired of people telling me that war is the only answer, but I didn't see that option on the poll.

[Ranger]

I'm now tired of people who keep using the term innocents with quote marks. Really. Innocent people have been killed.

[General Zod]

Originally Posted by ukywyldcat

I'm tired of all the sorrow in the Arab world everytime some of their "innocent" civilians get killed. These same people were dancing and filled with glee when 9/11 happened.

It's an interesting dynamic. Look at what will happen to our soldiers if they are indeed convicted of killing innocent Iraqi's. They will be tried in court and sentenced to jail and Americans will say they are horrible people. However when 2700+ innocent Americans are killed by Islamic extremists the Arab world celebrates. And somehow.. a peace process is supposed to spring up? I don't think our cultures could possibly be more diverse.

[ukywyldcat]

Originally Posted by General Zod

It's an interesting dynamic. Look at what will happen to our soldiers if they are indeed convicted of killing innocent Iraqi's. They will be tried in court and sentenced to jail and Americans will say they are horrible people. However when 2700+ innocent Americans are killed by Islamic extremists the Arab world celebrates. And somehow.. a peace process is supposed to spring up? I don't think our cultures could possibly be more diverse.

My wife is Lebanese. I see how her family interacts and how dysfunctional it is. If my wife's family is any indication of how people in the Middle East think, there is no compromise, there is no mutually beneficial solution. It is either their way or the highway. I choose the highway.

My family is extremely dysfunctional too. However, compromise exists in my family. Mutually beneficial solutions to problems are found when my family has issues. Such solutions and compromises are nonexistent in my wifes family.

My personal experiences in regards to my wife's family are somewhat considered in my opinion of handling the Middle East with force. My wife's family is "very" Lebanese. Very few outsiders have married in. During discussions I have had with them, they make it clear they side against Israel or against the United States each and every time no matter what. The older members of my wife's family have no problem expressing their anti-Jew and anti-black sentiments, even in public. Its quite astonishing. Yet, they are here making money, living the American dream, and being afforded protections that our soldiers die for every day. Its really quite irritating.

Anyway, because I see the mindset every time I get together with family, I do believe there is no room for negotiations with people who think like this. Therefore, if you know negotiations are going to fail, fuck it. Play to win.

Fortunately, my wife is a wonderful woman, and turned out to be much different than she probably should have been, considering the environment in which she was raised.

[kvrdave]

There will be no peace until many Muslims in the Middle East start loving their children more than they hate Jews. I don't actually see much "peace process" but rather see more and more rockets launched, so I don't know that I am really tired of it. It don't seem to exist none. Crap...double negative. You know what I mean.

[Breakfast with Girls]

Well, I'm sort of tired of seeing people paint entire groups of people with a broad brush.

I think Israel is justified in what they're doing just as the US was in Afghanistan, but there are most certainly innocent men, women, and children dying in the conflict.

[Ky-Fi]

I too get frustrated with the logic and ethics of the peace process supporters in this conflict, but I think this article makes a very good point about not dismissing world opinion:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...g_the_min.html

August 02, 2006

We Shouldn't Ignore World Opinion

By Tony Blankley

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius, Roman emperor and stoic philosopher, 121-180 A.D.

It's an appealing thought, but there is something to say for being in the insane majority. After all, it is decidedly unpleasant to be opposed by an insane majority. You could ask Israel right at the moment -- or for that matter for the past 3,000 years.

Whether technically insane, or merely wrong, ignorant, weak, stupid or malicious, the majority of people around the world -- what we respectfully call "world opinion" -- are rarely right about much of anything. That, in a nutshell, is why the world is in the shape it is -- and always has been. Christian theology calls it the imperfection of man, but one doesn't need to be a theologian to notice the deep moral and intellectual shortcomings of even the finest amongst our species. Gregory the Great (540-605 A.D.) neatly summarized seven of the worst: pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, anger and sloth. Thus, I propose the formula: 6.5 billion x 7 = world opinion (the world population times seven deadly sins equals world opinion). That is 45.5 billion reasons why world opinion is wrong.

And yet, to a greater or lesser extent, even the world's most powerful and stubborn men have felt the need to pay their respects to world opinion -- unwise a thing as world opinion usually is. Even Adolf Hitler, with all his insane hate and contempt for mankind (plus the strongest military force in the world at the time), felt the need to call his unprovoked invasion of Poland a "counter-attack" in a Reichstag speech. Of course, there was no Polish attack to "counter." He carefully preceded that lie with headlines the previous week in the German press such as: "Complete Chaos in Poland," "German Families Flee," " Polish Soldiers Push To Edge of German Border," "This Playing With Fire Going Too Far" "Three German Passenger Planes Shot At By Poles," "In Corridor Many German Farmhouses In Flames." Once again, none of those Polish deprivations of Germans happened -- except in the Nazi headlines. (If you are watching CNN et. al. this week, these headlines might seem vaguely familiar.)

But the lesson from all this is that as confident (or over-confident) as Hitler was at the time, he recognized that he could gain something by manipulating world opinion with propaganda. (Just as Winston Churchill fought the propaganda war as hard as he fought the military one. Effective propaganda is as necessary for the side of the angels as it is for the side of the devils.)

And it is vital to understand that while world opinion may be just the random collective judgment of mankind -- it is usually not random, but rather, in part at least, a propaganda-manipulated opinion.

Currently, the United States and Israel find themselves confronting a world opinion that is being shaped and manipulated by unfriendly others, and by the residue of historic malevolence, including: Hezbollah propaganda, European anti-Americanism and anti-Israelism, Muslim anti-Semitism, historic European anti-Semitism, and a mainstream world media that is tropistic to the foregoing factors.

Thus the question arises: How should Israel and the United States respond to the growing negative world opinion concerning the current Hezbollah/Israeli War? Naturally, the Europeans, the United Nations and the mainstream media -- the current majority in world opinion -- implore America and Israel to renounce Israel's and America's efforts at self defense from the hostility of radical Islamist terror: In Marcus Aurelius's phrase, to join the ranks of the insane. Both Israel and the United States should politely decline the invitation.

But nor is it in America's national interest (or Israel's) to say to hell with world opinion -- as some of the strongest advocates are currently saying. It is true that world opinion is at its most influential before the tanks roll and the bombs drop (just as the influence of a deterrent military force is strongest before it is actually tested in battle -- as Israel is sadly discovering currently).

And, importantly, it is also true that world opinion is powerless to stop the tanks rolling. So long as Israel decides to fight and America continues to give her diplomatic and re-armament back-up, world opinion can merely fume. So long as it remains in American national interest (particularly regarding our worldwide struggle against radical Islamism) to continue to back Israel, we should not be deterred by the rising fury of world opinion.

But over time, we ignore world opinion at our peril. World opinion tends -- to some extent-- to shape American voter opinion. And voter opinion tends to shape American politicians's opinion. Thus over time world opinion may weaken American will to defend itself against the amorphous but deadly Islamist virus.

Also, to the extent that defeating radical Islamism is enhanced by winning the hearts and minds of so far non-radical Muslims, corrosive world opinion against us only deepens the deep hole in which we currently find ourselves. America needs to get a lot better, fast, at the propaganda war that we are losing by default in the court of world public opinion. During the Cold War we spent billions and employed our smartest people to fight and win the propaganda war. Today, we are hors de combat.

Marcus Aurelius understood the appeal of joining the insane -- if there are enough of them. And like old Marcus -- the last of the five good Roman emperors -- we need to cling stoically to the dictates of reason in our continuous struggle for survival and victory. But it would sure help if we started trying to cure the pathology of an increasingly insane world. Our policy should be: Billions for propaganda, but not a single step back from fighting when necessary.

Copyright 2006 Creators Syndicate

[General Zod]

If we went with world opinion on things we'd spend every single penny we make on solving the rest of the world's problems. Part of what makes this country successful is we beat to our own drum. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with this article - I do think we should listen to world opinion.. following it however is not always the best way to go.

[nodeerforamonth]

Originally Posted by ukywyldcat

I'm tired of all the sorrow in the Arab world everytime some of their "innocent" civilians get killed. These same people were dancing and filled with glee when 9/11 happened.

And another way to point out how different we are from the savages: WE aren't dancing in the street when their innocent civilians are killed (either by accident or on purpose).

[Tracer Bullet]

Originally Posted by nodeerforamonth

And another way to point out how different we are from the savages: WE aren't dancing in the street when their innocent civilians are killed (either by accident or on purpose).

If you stand around crowing about how much better you are than the savages, then you're actually not any better than they are.

[classicman2]

Originally Posted by Ranger

actually i don't think gas prices have went up much at all since the recent mideast conflict.

20 cents per gallon here

[classicman2]

Originally Posted by ukywyldcat

No articles to post on this one. Is anyone else tired of all this peace process crap with Hezbollah/Lebanon and Israel? I am. These people are fucking terrorists. No deals should be offered. We hunt them down, kill them, and move on. End of story. Anyone agree, or what? I feel better now.

'Just hunt them down, kill them, and move on.'

Don't you realize that if it was that simple it would have been done long ago?

[Mopower]

I'm tired of seeing people cry and moan that their loved ones were killed when their loved ones let someone launch rockets from their back yard.

[bhk]

Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet
If you stand around crowing about how much better you are than the savages, then you're actually not any better than they are.

If you say how much better you are than people who beat up homosexuals you're no better than the people who actually beat them up?

[Tommy Ceez]

Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet

If you stand around crowing about how much better you are than the savages, then you're actually not any better than they are.

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?

[Tracer Bullet]

I just find it interesting how the first reaction of so many people seems to be to call Arabs en masse "savages". The level of vitriol is shocking. I don't find hate to be a productive emotion.

[NearysEpiphany]

"If you stand around crowing about how much better you are than the savages, then you're actually not any better than they are."

I've seen a lot of dumb platitudes in this forum, but this one takes the cake.

[NearysEpiphany]

"I just find it interesting how the first reaction of so many people seems to be to call Arabs en masse "savages". The level of vitriol is shocking. I don't find hate to be a productive emotion."

No, not all Arabs are savages. And not all westerners are "enlightened", BUT....

There is a HUGE disparity between our cultures, and I don't think it is particularly productive to consistently try to downplay those differences. All it does is cloud the minds of the impressionable.

[Nutter]

There's definitely something savage about this thread...

[General Zod]

[wendersfan]

Originally Posted by nodeerforamonth

And another way to point out how different we are from the savages: WE aren't dancing in the street when their innocent civilians are killed (either by accident or on purpose).

No, thankfully we're much more advanced and have the Internet on which to celebrate it.