US weapons sales with India, Pakistan?

Ranger · 03-26-05, 05:35 PM

Is this really a good idea? Pakistan may be somewhat our ally now, but they may not be in the near future. And selling weapons to India seems like a dumb idea also.

Quote:

Officials in India said Saturday they welcomed a U.S. offer of nuclear cooperation.

In a statement issued in New Delhi, the Indian ministry for external affairs said the U.S. government has offered to cooperate with India in the fields of civilian nuclear energy and nuclear safety.

Friday, India had criticized the United States for selling F-16 fighter jets to rival Pakistan, saying that it could disturb the military balance in South Asia.

While announcing the proposed sale of F-16s to Pakistan, Washington also offered New Delhi a wider array of weapons system and the option of producing them in India.

In the same announcement, the Bush administration also had offered to help India meet its energy needs, saying that the United States wants to see India as a major world power.

http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/?sid=c2eb556e99fa7abe

Lateralus · 03-26-05, 05:39 PM

Not really a big deal, the F-16's are like 30 years old. We would do the same thing we did in Iraq, impose sanctions first and eventually their fleet would become deteriorated. Not to mention we would probably bomb where they were hiding first.

huzefa · 03-26-05, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranger

Is this really a good idea? Pakistan may be somewhat our ally now, but they may not be in the near future. And selling weapons to India seems like a dumb idea also.

http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/?sid=c2eb556e99fa7abe

Not sure what you're getting at. Why would the world's strongest democracy selling weapons to the world's largest democracy be a dumb idea? It's not like the US is selling it to some military dictator or something....

Ranger · 03-26-05, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lateralus

Not really a big deal, the F-16's are like 30 years old. We would do the same thing we did in Iraq, impose sanctions first and eventually their fleet would become deteriorated. Not to mention we would probably bomb where they were hiding first.

But the possibility of getting dragged into an Iran-Iraq-like conflict isn't very comforting.

huzefa: I do view India as a democracy, but I don't really consider them to be an ally.

Pharoh · 03-26-05, 08:46 PM

I believe it to be a good and sound idea.

Myster X · 03-27-05, 12:55 AM

US is the biggest weapons dealer in the world.

Ranger · 03-27-05, 05:27 PM

Sigh. Where are the liberals?

eXcentris · 03-27-05, 10:43 PM

I don't see it as a big deal. I also don't see Europe selling weapons to China as a big deal. At least, I'm consistent.

Ranger · 03-27-05, 11:41 PM

I have a select list of countries I'm cool with selling arms to, but Pakistan and India aren't really on the list. It wasn't so long ago that many were afraid that the two were going to have a nuke war with each other.

DVD Polizei · 03-28-05, 12:11 AM

The US needs money for the Iraq War.

Pharoh · 03-28-05, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXcentris

I don't see it as a big deal. I also don't see Europe selling weapons to China as a big deal. At least, I'm consistent.

Another victory for the Bush administration.

Venusian · 03-28-05, 08:26 AM

I'm not sure this is a good idea. Are we really sure Pakistan is going to be our friend in a year or two? Are we really sure India won't take out Pakistan when it gets a chance?

classicman2 · 03-28-05, 08:30 AM

Quote:

huzefa: I do view India as a democracy, but I don't really consider them to be an ally.

I don't consider Pakistan to be our ally either.

As for the selling of aircraft to India

Pharoh · 03-28-05, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venusian

I'm not sure this is a good idea. Are we really sure Pakistan is going to be our friend in a year or two? Are we really sure India won't take out Pakistan when it gets a chance?

India has nothing to gain by striking pre-emptively and much to lose. They will only respond to attacks from Pakistan, with the likelihood of such attacks decreasing daily. These sales continue that downward trend.

I too am somewhat worried about the long term future of Pakistan, but believe it to be a clear case of the devil you know. The US is counting on a great deal from President Musharraf, more than most realise. Keeping our friendship strong and viable is in our best interests, as is not allowing others, (China and Russia), to fill the void created by our backing away from Pakistan. This is not to say there aren't issues with the relationship, but it is the right move at this time.

natevines · 03-28-05, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXcentris

I don't see it as a big deal. I also don't see Europe selling weapons to China as a big deal. At least, I'm consistent.

Doesn't the EU have a weapons embargo on China that doesn't expire for at least another year?

Pharoh · 03-28-05, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by natevines

Doesn't the EU have a weapons embargo on China that doesn't expire for at least another year?

Last year the EU voted to lift the embargo. If I recall the date correctly, it was set to expire on June 30th. Facing fierce pressure from the Bush administration, as well as from member nations, especially after China's public statement regarding taiwan, the decision has been delayed. Mr. Chirac still favors lifting the embargo.

classicman2 · 03-28-05, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranger

I have a select list of countries I'm cool with selling arms to, but Pakistan and India aren't really on the list. It wasn't so long ago that many were afraid that the two were going to have a nuke war with each other.

Is Egypt on that list?

Is Saudia Arabia on that list?

Is Israel on that list?

Ranger · 03-28-05, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman2

Is Egypt on that list?

No.

Quote:

Is Saudia Arabia on that list?

Hell no!

Quote:

Is Israel on that list?

(deep voice) Yes.

Taiwan is on the list also, but I think that is about it...

Edit: Oh, ok, so there's also South Korea and Australia.

Red Dog · 03-28-05, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranger

Is this really a good idea? Pakistan may be somewhat our ally now, but they may not be in the near future.

C'mon man. It worked so well with our arms sales to Iran in the past.

To answer the question, I don't particularly see it as a problem.

Pharoh · 03-28-05, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Dog

C'mon man. It worked so well with our arms sales to Iran in the past.

It actually did work out far better than the alternatives would have.

Red Dog · 03-28-05, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharoh

It actually did work out far better than the alternatives would have.

If you subscribe to the theory of containment.

eXcentris · 03-28-05, 09:39 AM

The EU weapons embargo as well the 1998 EU Code of Conduct which regulate the export of military equipment and dual-use goods outside the EU are filled with loopholes and, in reality, are largely symbolic. The EU also uses a very strict definition of "arms" so while the French cannot sell fighter planes and the German cannot sell tanks, they can still provide China with all the parts they need to modernize their military. And if China wants "complete" weapon systems, they get them from Russia and Israel.

So let's not jump to conclusion and raise that Mission Accomplished banner yet, because it's a "victory" for the Bush admin only on the surface.

Pharoh · 03-28-05, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXcentris

Yes except that this weapons embargo as well the 1998 EU Code of Conduct which regulate the export of military equipment and dual-use goods outside the EU are filled with loopholes and, in reality, are largely symbolic. The EU also uses a very strict definition of "arms" so while the French cannot sell fighter planes and the German cannot sell tanks, they can still provide China with all the parts they need to modernize their military. And if China wants "complete" weapon systems, they get them from Russia and Israel.

Like how EU arms sales to China doubled last year from the previous year? Sounds to me, from the reality and from what you are saying, there is no need to lift the embargo. Let the message stand.

eXcentris · 03-28-05, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharoh

Like how EU arms sales to China doubled last year from the previous year? Sounds to me, from the reality and from what you are saying, there is no need to lift the embargo. Let the message stand.

Conversely, if you use the EU perspective, keeping the embargo makes no sense. While lifting it would not cause arms sales to increase dramatically, this "gesture" would be rewarded with lucrative business contracts in other sectors.

Pharoh · 03-28-05, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXcentris

Conversely, if you use the EU perspective, keeping the embargo makes no sense. While lifting it would not cause arms sales to increase dramatically, this "gesture" would be rewarded with lucrative business contracts in other sectors.

I believe it would change the scope of arms sales somewhat significantly, though I agree that it would not be the end of the world. However, effects of the political message it would send would be rather numerous. I obviously also don't agree with the propping up of China as a buffer to America's status as a hyperpower, an explicit goal of some within the EU.

03-26-05, 05:39 PM	#2
Lateralus DVD Talk Hall of Fame Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Valley of Megiddo Posts: 9,304	Not really a big deal, the F-16's are like 30 years old. We would do the same thing we did in Iraq, impose sanctions first and eventually their fleet would become deteriorated. Not to mention we would probably bomb where they were hiding first. __________________ (Lat's book lists)

03-28-05, 12:11 AM	#10
DVD Polizei DVD Talk Hero Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Overpricedville, OR Posts: 36,727	The US needs money for the Iraq War. __________________ Blu-ray Titles: ~380 \| HD DVD Titles: ~323 "I don't sell airplane parts. I've never sold airplane parts."

03-28-05, 09:39 AM	#22
eXcentris DVD Talk Legend Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 22,912	The EU weapons embargo as well the 1998 EU Code of Conduct which regulate the export of military equipment and dual-use goods outside the EU are filled with loopholes and, in reality, are largely symbolic. The EU also uses a very strict definition of "arms" so while the French cannot sell fighter planes and the German cannot sell tanks, they can still provide China with all the parts they need to modernize their military. And if China wants "complete" weapon systems, they get them from Russia and Israel. So let's not jump to conclusion and raise that Mission Accomplished banner yet, because it's a "victory" for the Bush admin only on the surface. Last edited by eXcentris; 03-28-05 at 09:43 AM.

03-26-05, 08:46 PM	#5
Pharoh DVD Talk Legend Join Date: May 2000 Location: In sadness and denial Posts: 21,161	I believe it to be a good and sound idea.

03-27-05, 12:55 AM	#6
Myster X Banned Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Democratik People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 22,995	US is the biggest weapons dealer in the world.

03-27-05, 05:27 PM	#7
Ranger DVD Talk Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 18,143	Sigh. Where are the liberals?

03-27-05, 10:43 PM	#8
eXcentris DVD Talk Legend Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 22,912	I don't see it as a big deal. I also don't see Europe selling weapons to China as a big deal. At least, I'm consistent.

03-27-05, 11:41 PM	#9
Ranger DVD Talk Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 18,143	I have a select list of countries I'm cool with selling arms to, but Pakistan and India aren't really on the list. It wasn't so long ago that many were afraid that the two were going to have a nuke war with each other.

03-28-05, 08:26 AM	#12
Venusian Moderator Join Date: Nov 1999 Posts: 36,943	I'm not sure this is a good idea. Are we really sure Pakistan is going to be our friend in a year or two? Are we really sure India won't take out Pakistan when it gets a chance?