Dems Lie About the Draft Some More

[OldDude]

Originally posted by X
Oops.

No problem, and I remembered the leg work you had done in the other thread with the bill numbers. Of course I couldn't remember the numbers and had to Google, but I wouldn't have known to Google if you hadn't found them the first time.

[X]

Unless my long-term memory is shot too, I wasn't the one who researched those bills.

[OldDude]

Oh, I thought it was you. But neither of us can check it can we? That thread must have gone a lot sourer after I went to bed.

[X]

It didn't get more sour. It just got a little more "informative" than the original poster intended in his thread that he said wasn't political and was just an "FYI".

[OldDude]

Well, this thread is safe, 'cause I have an agenda of exposing some dishonesty and duplicity, and my basic premise seems to be holding up just fine.

[PrivateJoker]

Originally posted by CRM114
Rangel's draft proposal has one key difference from its Vietnam War predecessor: in order to equitably spread the cost of military service, it carries no exemptions for students in college or graduate school."

http://www.columbiaspectator.com/vne.../3e3799b8d23e8

Good idea. Now even more of the students in publicly subsidized colleges will be non-US citizens. Way to go, Rangel.

[classicman2]

That's the best aspect of Rangel's proposal - no student deferrments.

[Mammal]

We should allow foreigners to enlist in a special branch of the Army, with the reward being citizenship. That would supply the manpower we need to do the Iraq fiasco up right.

[matchpenalty]

Originally posted by Mammal
We should allow foreigners to enlist in a special branch of the Army, with the reward being citizenship. That would supply the manpower we need to do the Iraq fiasco up right.

Easy way for a terrorist to get open access. NO WAY

When did Rome fall... After it's citizens were no longer willing to fight.. They paid others to take their place..

[Mammal]

Dear me, you wouldn't expect ordinary citizens of the US to have to put up with military service, do you? What an extraordinary idea.

[Ranger]

When did Rome fall...

When they ran out of money. They ran out of money because they kept giving payments to their enemies not to fight them. When it was the last straw for them, it was too late.

Now on the draft, I suppose there is that idea of "shared responsiblity." Nevertheless, forcing ordinary citizens into the military will weaken it in two ways 1) lower morals and 2) lower skills. An effective, well-trained, and willing army is the most important thing there is and a draft (forced labor) is not the best way to accomplish that.

Vietnam was a complete failure because of the draft.

[CRM114]

Of course Rangel's call for the draft is symbolic. For it NOT to be symbolic, he'd have to think their was a prayer of it happening. In case you missed it:

"Rangel has stated that his intention is not to bring back the draft. Rather, by using an issue that holds a deep emotional resonance for many Americans, he is addressing the class disparity between the Americans who serve in the military and the civilians responsible for leading them. Rangel's draft proposal has one key difference from its Vietnam War predecessor: in order to equitably spread the cost of military service, it carries no exemptions for students in college or graduate school."

http://www.columbiaspectator.com/vn...9/3e3799b8d23e8

[bhk]

"Rangel has stated that his intention is not to bring back the draft. Rather, by using an issue that holds a deep emotional resonance for many Americans, he is addressing the class disparity between the Americans who serve in the military and the civilians responsible for leading them. Rangel's draft proposal has one key difference from its Vietnam War predecessor: in order to equitably spread the cost of military service, it carries no exemptions for students in college or graduate school."

That's perfect sense for the kind of politics that Rangel believes in. Say one thing while doing another.
Just for curiosity, how many "symbolic" tax cut bills has Rangel sponsored?

[Mammal]

Ranger...

Well, if we start letting people enlist in the military with felony records and without even a GED - and I expect waivers aren't hard to get these days - "morals" will suffer, and morale too. It's better to have a high quality professional Army until you need a big one. I think we need a big one now.

It's interesting to see why Rome and Vietnam collapsed. Hell, all this time I thought the reasons for both collapses were sort of complicated.

[Ranger]

Originally posted by Mammal
Well, if we start letting people enlist in the military with felony records and without even a GED - and I expect waivers aren't hard to get these days - "morals" will suffer, and morale too. It's better to have a high quality professional Army until you need a big one. I think we need a big one now.

I don't know about ex-cons joining.

Doesn't the military have a tough entrance exam to weed out those not qualified? Well, probably only for the technical field.

Again, my point is that if the government forces ordinary citizens to fight around the world, there will certainly be a number of pissed individuals that won't help things much. They will have problems with authority and not behave. Is it not true that some of the worst atrocities of Vietnam were carried out by frustrated draftees? And with those atrocities, the media will cover them intensely, punishing the rest of the military.

I do agree on the need for a professional army, but the draft is not the best solution. Offering better salaries is. At least give credit to the military for giving attractive ROTC scholarships at many universities.

It's interesting to see why Rome and Vietnam collapsed. Hell, all this time I thought the reasons for both collapses were sort of complicated.

I didn't say it wasn't complicated, but the draft and money mismanagement were certainly big factors.

[Mammal]

Actually, there are certain advantages to draftees - for one, the Army can draft people to fit its needs, rather than fitting a square peg into a round hole. Most of the discipline problems came from "volunteers" who were given the option of jail or join.

The Army is as picky as it can be. The bodies have to be produced, either by drafting, or taking anybody above room temperature.

It's great to have a professional Army, but in an Iraq-Vietnam situation the pros are being abused through overwork.

[Ranger]

Well, that's underestimating the military though. It's a fact that we have the most advanced and powerful military in the world. Sure, it could be better.

Nevertheless, it is a force of over a million. More patrols might be needed in Iraq, but there is an adequate amount of troops that can be supplied. Unfortunately, the influence of politics and ultra-scrutiny can delay that action.

A major issue with the draft is trust. More people trusted their government sixty years ago than today. Following Vietnam (and perhaps Korea), trust of government has declined sharply. Another draft will not help that trend.

At least most of the people in the armed services join by free will to serve their country.

Reagan may have not kept all his promises but he had some good ideas.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1317

[Josh-da-man]

I can't believe how many people here are actually taking Charlie Rangel seriously.

[PrivateJoker]

Originally posted by classicman2
That's the best aspect of Rangel's proposal - no student deferrments.

Are you OK with bankrolling educations that provide no benefit to the society that paid for them?

[classicman2]

Originally posted by PrivateJoker
Are you OK with bankrolling educations that provide no benefit to the society that paid for them?

Perhaps the question should be - should we be 'bankrolling education?'

[PrivateJoker]

Originally posted by classicman2
Perhaps the question should be - should we be 'bankrolling education?'

Answer a question with a question? Surely you can't be serious. I am serious. And don't call me Shirley.

So what's your answer to my previous question?

I don't belive publicly subsidized schools should allow access to non-citizens until all citizens meeting acceptance criteria are accepted.

My answer to the question of mandated complete conscription is yes. Let me add that I still wish I did 2 years in the Corps.

[dstrauss]

I gathered a lot of this info from a post on another message board. Unfortunately, I don't have the original citation, just the info I saved. But the link to the source document for this research is at the bottom.



First of all, the draft never left us. Selective Service has been registering people for over twenty years and at any moment the President can go to Congress and ask them to reauthorize conscription.

You don't need a full draft law. All he needs is a "trigger resolution." No debate needed. It can be passed at 3 am, just like the Medicaid bill.

The Rangel/Hollings bills are irrelevent. Hollings has said he would never even vote for his own bill. They're protest bills, which include drafting women in order to raise the issue and force the administration and the media to acknowledge the subject.

But just like the series of terrorist, explosive letters recently sent to 19 state governors (What? You didn't hear about this in the mainstream media? Must be because the perpetrators aren't foreign.), the issue hasn't been deemed worthy of being discussed. We're too busy discussing typefaces and superscripts in this country, you know.


The Administration is spending $28 million this year and has reduced draft activation time from the usual 193 days all the way down to 75 days.

Only in this draft there will be no student deferments, other than finishing out the semester, or the year if you are a senior. Divinity School students, however, get full four-year deferments. We might see a lot of young men getting religion.

What is the proof? The government’s own document, the SSS Performance Plan for Fiscal Year 2004.

The Selective Service System has been operating at low readiness for a long time. The draft boards were, until recently, over 80% vacant.

In previous annual SSS plans, the mission of the Selective Service is to be ready to conscript within 193 days of reauthorization, over six months before any lottery could be held and report orders issued. The 2004 plan reduces that time to 75 days.

By March 31, 2005, a report must be issued by the Director of the SSS to the Pentagon that the system will be ready to hold the first draft lottery within 75 days, rather than the usual 193 days.

"Strategic Objective 1.2: Ensure a mobilization infrastructure of 56 State Headquarters, 442 Area Offices and 1,980 Local Boards are operational within 75 days of an authorized return to conscription."

"An annual report providing the results of the implementation of these performance measures will be submitted by March 31, 2005."

Here is how the $28 million is being spent according to the official document:

"Strategic Goal 1: Increase the effectiveness and efficiency of the Manpower Delivery Systems (Projected allocation for FY 2004 – $7,942,000)

Strategic Goal 2: Improve overall Registration Compliance and Service to the Public (Projected allocation FY 2004 – $8,769,000)

Strategic Goal 3: Enhance external and internal customer service (Projected allocation for FY 2004 – $10,624,000)

Strategic Goal 4: Enhance the system which guarantees that each conscientious objector is properly classified, placed, and monitored. (Projected allocation for FY 2004 – $955,000)"

The SSS also began a crash recruitment drive last summer and fall to fill the 80% board vacancies by Spring 2005.

Strategic goal 1 also includes a goal to bring combat induction process up to 95% operational readiness, including a directive to hold a mock lottery drawing sometime in 2004 and to issue sample orders to report for medical exams.

In addition, the Medical Draft, or Health Care Personnel Delivery System, is for the first time brought up to full readiness by next year. This draft would take men and women up to age 44 if they are doctors, nurses or one of 60-some medical specialties. No medical deferments allowed.

This is a major change from previous annual exercises. The 2004 plan actually develops a readiness exercise for the Medical Draft that would be conducted next year. Plus HCPDS must be ready to conscript by June.

"Develop an Area Office Prototype Exercise which will test the HCPDS work flows and its automated support programs. FY 2004. Prepare, conduct, and evaluate an Area Office Prototype Exercise for health care in FY 2005."

Strategic goal 2 is to assign registrars to up to 85% of the high schools in America.

Strategic goal 3 is about draft administration, with goals to make sure the system can handle all correspondence within 10 days and to create new tracking software.

As for Strategic goal 4:

"Strategic Objective 4.1: Ensure a mobilization infrastructure of 48 Alternative Service Offices and 48 Civilian Review Boards are operational within 96 days after notification of a return to induction."

For 31 years, the Conscientious Objector system, called the Alternative Service, has lain dormant. The 2004 plan also calls for this to be brought up to speed and to be ready to decide cases and place COs in the Alternative Service by July 6, 2005. The SSS is even going so far as to draw up the Standard Operating Procedures which identify local employers eligible to receive cheap AS workers and to also draw up the actual Memorandum of Understanding the employer must sign to get their CO workers and allow their mandatory attendance to be monitored. This is the last obstacle to be hurdled before the draft could actually be ready for activation under the law.

To sum up so far -- draft board seats are being filled, a mock draft has been authorized, and medical draft and alternative service procedures are to be active by March 31.

A reporter from the Seattle Post-Intelligencer used a FOIA request to obtain a six-page document from the SSS to the Pentagon on their progress. In addition to all the above noted points, the SSS has proposed a "Skills Draft" that would take men and women up to age *34* for non-combat positions such as linguist, computer specialist or engineer.

Wesley Clark actually talked about this in his book, Winning Modern Wars: "I went back through the Pentagon in November 2001, and one of the senior military staff officers had time for a chat. Yes, we were still on track for going against Iraq, he said. But there was more. This was being discussed as part of a five-year campaign plan, he said, and there were a total of seven countries, beginning with Iraq, then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iran, Somalia, and Sudan. So, I thought, this is what they mean when they talk about ‘draining the swamp."

The alternative? John Kerry has a No-Draft Plan, a plan to strengthen the military in key areas yet draw down U.S. troop levels in Iraq by internationalizing the situation and then getting out as soon as possible.

Whether it will work, I have no idea. The so-called "experts" have screwed up this war so badly that the situation by January is impossible to predict.

Kerry's plan calls to increase enlistment with more scholarships, benefits and pay raises. He also remembers who actually attacked us on 9/11. He plans to send more special forces troops after Al Qaeda, and treat it as a "law enforcement effort, not a full military effort." There is also a plan to start a "Civilian Stability Corps" that would help in reconstructing Afghanistan and Iraq and relieve military pressure. And of course, there's the hopeful goal of bringing in more foreign troops, which is no doubt a tough sell considering how badly Bush has pissed off the world.

Kerry’s plan calls for increasing active-duty troop levels by two divisions, 40,000 people. He also doubles the number of Special Ops troops. Half the 40,000 being added are civil engineering and half are combat, costing an extra $7 billion, but it relieves the pressure on the Guard and Reserves for overseas deployments and essentially saves the Volunteer Army.

Considering the large number of sources that I could cite regarding stop-loss orders and the military screwing over reserves that have been on active duty for *far* longer than they were supposed to, Kerry has a lot of work to do.

To read yourself:
http://www.sss.gov/perfplan_fy2004.html

[Venusian]

Originally posted by dstrauss

But just like the series of terrorist, explosive letters recently sent to 19 state governors (What? You didn't hear about this in the mainstream media? Must be because the perpetrators aren't foreign.), the issue hasn't been deemed worthy of being discussed. We're too busy discussing typefaces and superscripts in this country, you know.


"Strategic Objective 1.2: Ensure a mobilization infrastructure of 56 State Headquarters

hmm...i did read about the letters in the mainstream media.

We actually discussed a lot of what you posted here before, in the other thread that was deleted.



since when do we have 56 states?

[Venusian]

Originally posted by dstrauss


Only in this draft there will be no student deferments, other than finishing out the semester, or the year if you are a senior. Divinity School students, however, get full four-year deferments. We might see a lot of young men getting religion.

i dont see anything about this in your link

[Mammal]

Not 56 states, 56 offices....DC, Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, Virgin Islands and?