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Old 05-06-17, 05:02 PM   #1
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Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

Long story not-so-short,
My debit card was cloned a couple weeks back. I can pretty much pinpoint the place where it happened... a gas station (of course) in my neighborhood. I probably didn't cover the keypad when I input my PIN, too. Fuck, I know... I should have done better. Am I still responsible, though?
So, some jackass copies my card, drives 15 miles, and makes three withdrawals for $200 each from some shady-ass ATM. Not happy with that, hours later, they returned to my neighborhood, and attempted a fourth withdrawal at an ATM at the gas station across the street from the one where it was copied. That one failed, because the bank finally flagged the previous three transactions as suspicious. I had one legitimate transaction between them.

So, I got a notification from the bank, I called them immediately, and gave them all the details they asked for. They gave me a temporary credit until the case could be reviewed. I ended up filling out one of those super basic "I swear I didn't authorize this shit" forms for them and they never asked me for more info beyond that.

Since that day, I've changed the way I use my replacement card entirely. I use cash for small transactions... I cover the keypad better when I DO use it... and I sure as shit haven't returned to the gas station where I'm 99.9% sure happened.

Today, I got a letter from the bank concluding that the transactions were NOT fraudulent and that the temporary credit I received would be removed. Basically... I'm out $600. Fuck me.

Their fraud department isn't even open today or tomorrow (which is bullshit) so I can't call them until Monday. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't have created this thread.

So... my questions for the otters in the house are:
Have you ever had a bank decide against you in this way, and if so, how did you handle it? Did you attempt to re-open the case? Is it even possible to dispute after they've made their decision? Did you switch banks?

Yes, this is a BIG bank...
Yes, I should have been more careful.

Still... what can I do to prove my innocence here?
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Old 05-06-17, 05:54 PM   #2
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

ATM (should) = video camera.

First and only piece of advice -- dump the big bank and bank local.

No matter what you do, in this day and age your card WILL be compromised at some point. If that is how the bank treats their customers, fuck them. (Sounds as if the are going to try the technicality of the PIN being used.)
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Old 05-06-17, 06:12 PM   #3
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

I heard they making credit cards with finger print scanning.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/20/maste...th-africa.html

@OP

I've never been scammed thank goodness. I've had my banks alert me of suspicious activity and lock my account, of which I had to call to verify to unlock.

I'm curious what big bank is this is it BOA? I would be pissed off if I was out of $600. I think this bank needs to do more evaluation and investigation.
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Old 05-06-17, 06:15 PM   #4
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

File a police report. My guess is that due to the amount and nature of the crime, it should be a felony. Have them get the video from the ATM so you can provide to bank.
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Old 05-06-17, 06:30 PM   #5
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

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Originally Posted by Deftones View Post
File a police report. My guess is that due to the amount and nature of the crime, it should be a felony. Have them get the video from the ATM so you can provide to bank.
Is this something I can even do a few weeks after the fact? The bank didn't recommend this when I talked to them minutes after they notified me of the issue.
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Old 05-06-17, 06:52 PM   #6
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

I've had three separate incidents with credit cards and they've never gone against me. I only use my debit card for ATM deposits/withdrawals and use a credit card for purchases. They are much safer and the rules for fraud protection are much better.
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Old 05-06-17, 07:01 PM   #7
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

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Originally Posted by Dan View Post
Is this something I can even do a few weeks after the fact? The bank didn't recommend this when I talked to them minutes after they notified me of the issue.
Yes you can file it now.

Also, i should point out that I NEVER use debit cards, only credit cards. My bank sent me a debit card. I called them and cancelled it. In addition to the problem you had, let's say that you had someone using your card and draining your bank account, you would be liable for late charges and non sufficient funds fees for other places perhaps who you use auto pay and bounced check fees. Insufficient funds can also cause you to lose thousands even ten thousand or more dollars if you are buying a house and were unable to close escrow on time, leading to the loss of the earnest money deposit, appraisal, inspection, escrow fees...

I have had multiple occasions of fraudulent charges on my credit card and it was resolved very quickly and in my favor without any problems
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Old 05-06-17, 08:06 PM   #8
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

I just spent 6 weeks arguing with a major credit card issuer over $11000 in fraud, all obvious fraud at my local merchant that I shop at. They lied and tried to delay me every step of the way. They never sent me a chipped card, and their automated fraud system didn't catch it.

First, definitely file a police report . I was able to get photos of the suspect, but the police probably won't do anything unless you or they know the person.
The company may try to tell you that they'll handle this - don't believe them. They won't involve the police at all

Second, write a letter to the bank so it is official. I didn't do this initially because I trusted that my company would recognize that I was wronged and fix things - completely wrong decision on my part as they are not legally obligated to investigate anything until you send this in - and you have 60 days to do it. The company made it almost impossible to find the right address to send to which I thought was funny. Letter should be certified.

Third, If they do not help you, go to the FTC and file a complaint. You better believe I got a call back from the office of the president for this company and fixed in my favor within a couple of days with an apology.
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Old 05-06-17, 08:14 PM   #9
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

Just curious which bank it was?

I was able to resolve my issues quickly but should they deny it, then I would take your route.
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Old 05-06-17, 08:28 PM   #10
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

Got hosed by a smaller regional bank one time my debit card was used fraudulently. The vendor refunded me one of the charges so I was only out $20. From that point on debit card is only used at ATM and I use CC for any type of charge because their fraud procedures are better

I would definitely file a police report and submit it to the bank asking them to reconsider their decision.
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Old 05-06-17, 08:41 PM   #11
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

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Originally Posted by JoeyOhhhh View Post
Got hosed by a smaller regional bank one time my debit card was used fraudulently. The vendor refunded me one of the charges so I was only out $20. From that point on debit card is only used at ATM and I use CC for any type of charge because their fraud procedures are better

I would definitely file a police report and submit it to the bank asking them to reconsider their decision.
You can request for an ATM card in lieu of a debit card. That can only be used for ATM access.
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Old 05-06-17, 08:45 PM   #12
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

Wow. That's some stone cold theft. The more common problem is that a # gets stolen, used, and the vendor is left holding the check. The vendor is normally responsible for this, and that's why they ask (or used-to ask) for ID and verify signatures.

Deftones' advice is probably the best. You might also be able to counter the declined claim (more or less stating the same thing again). When you're dealing with a normal vendor transaction, you can go back and forth three times before the decision is final.

I always thought this was a 'one in a billion' kind of theft. This makes me think twice about carrying unused cards around with me or being cavalier with my info.
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Old 05-06-17, 09:03 PM   #13
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

Quote:
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Is this something I can even do a few weeks after the fact? The bank didn't recommend this when I talked to them minutes after they notified me of the issue.
Yes. You can file a police report anytime. I'd try to do it quickly, though, because there is no way to know how long they keep ATM videos. Also, maybe try the banks twitter CSR. I've often been able to get things resolved tweeting a company after their phone CSRs won't do shit. Companies don't want negative publicity out there on the twitterverse.
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Old 05-06-17, 09:10 PM   #14
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

Just called the police in the big city, since that's where the cloned card got used (I guess it doesn't matter where it was cloned, only where it was used). I live in a smaller city that directly connects to the big city. They've given me a report number, and not much else. They said I can access the report on Friday, but they might contact me sooner for more info. At least I can take that back to the bank to say I have it. Fuckers.

Thanks for all the other info, guys. I'm going to fight this shit the best I can. I'll be writing up a letter, but I'm not sure exactly how to give it to them. Like fiver said, it's not easy finding the right address to send this kind of thing to.

Sonic is right about which bank it is. I went with them because I figured they'd be the most trustworthy with this kind of shit. But in my case, it's like they didn't even try to get more info before making their decision.

The ATM used to steal my money was one of those third-party vendors. Not an ATM I used (I only use ATMs for my own bank since I avoid fees as much as possible), but the ATM the thief used once they had my card cloned. I looked at the transactions again tonight. Fucker even did an "account balance" check before doing the withdrawals.
ATM vendor is a big vendor, too. It's quite possible they keep videos for awhile, but I haven't found any specific info on that yet. Hopefully the PD helps with that.
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Old 05-06-17, 09:38 PM   #15
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

Fuck BOA. Long time ago I financed a car through them. They applied one of my payments to another account. Once they figured out their mistake, they still wanted me to pay the late fee. I raised holy hell and finally got an apology from some VP. But fuck 'em.
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Old 05-06-17, 10:44 PM   #16
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

Quote:
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Sonic is right about which bank it is. I went with them because I figured they'd be the most trustworthy with this kind of shit.


Oh, you Canadians ...

Sorry, but the government should have allowed the major financial institutions to collapse. Yeah, it would have hurt for a while but we would have turned out better in the long run.
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Old 05-07-17, 09:38 AM   #17
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

Bank of America is such a turd of a bank. I'm with Chase now and their policies, ATM's are all more supportive of the customer. Bank of America is the kind of company that cuts corners on their ATM maintenance until they're half-functional and then pushes all their customers to use the ATM. Uhhhh you mother fuckers. I hate that place so much. Or their policy of charging overdrafts in the queue of highest to lowest (not based on the time of the charge, or lowest to highest).

I won't assume that Chase wouldn't have this same problem. But I'm not surprised at all that Bank of America is ready to argue against you, even in a case where you were basically robbed. Don't expect an ounce of courtesy from them. You're better off reading up on how banks and consumers are protected in this situation. Because they're not going to refund you out of courtesy. Your best move might be to walk away from your account with a negative balance, and then call them a few months later to "settle" the balance. Seriously, fuck Bank of America.
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Old 05-07-17, 10:41 AM   #18
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan
Still... what can I do to prove my innocence here?
What kind of information did BoA ask for to help prove those transactions weren't yours? It's not like those transactions were out of state, they were 15 miles from you. Do you have other transactions, not just from the debit card, but from a credit card or cash receipts, that shows that you could not have been at the locations when the theft occurred?
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Old 05-07-17, 12:29 PM   #19
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

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Originally Posted by D.Pham4GLTE (>60GB) View Post
Also, i should point out that I NEVER use debit cards, only credit cards. ....

I have had multiple occasions of fraudulent charges on my credit card and it was resolved very quickly and in my favor without any problems
This, so much this! I don't trust fucking banks and their debit cards, and they are easier to spoof. On the other hand, I've had two occasions over the years where I experienced credit card fraud and Visa/Master Card took care of the problem flawlessly. Plus, you have free money for a month, as long as you pay your bill in full every month (my credit card companies probably hate me, they aren't making any money off of me!), credit cards are much better than debit cards.

Really sorry to hear about your problems Dan, hope everything works out!
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Old 05-07-17, 12:37 PM   #20
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

It's the vendor that actually eats those costs when you claim fraud on your credit card. So even if it's some small online vendor where a stolen card was used, it's the vendor that gets screwed. Not the bank.

The problem with debit cards, is that when the card is run as debit, a pin # must be used. And, first, the vendor is covered when a pin # is used. Second, it's a lot harder to claim innocence when you claim that the thief knows your pin #. But that's apparently what happened here ... which is some seriously attentive theft.

I've never encountered this kind of theft before. It's kind of like in the 90's when everyone was worried that their shredded bank statements would be reassembled and claimed by thieves raiding your trash can. The likelyhood of that actually happening is really slim. To the point where I just don't care.

You know what else is really slim? The chances of Bank of America backing up your transaction. The vendor (the owner of the ATM) isn't going to take the loss (as they were protected when a pin # was used). You're going to have to push BoA to take the hit. Like Deftones said ... file a police report ... and pressure them on Twitter and see what happens. That's all you can hope for. Otherwise, you're probably screwed. Nobody is there to issue a refund if you're mugged. And that's pretty much what happened here.
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Old 05-07-17, 12:45 PM   #21
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

Another potential resource: contact your local State's Attorney's office (or Attorney General, whatever name they use). They will have a consumer fraud division that can assist.
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Old 05-07-17, 12:50 PM   #22
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

Yea. Whatever it takes. Remember, it's Bank of America that you need to pressure to take the loss. Since it's $600, they might just do it if you take it far enough. But it's really just being an asshole to them that's going to get them to move. The rules aren't going to have you covered here.

FYI, your submission was likely auto-declined, because a pin # as used at an ATM machine. It probably notes on your declined notice how to follow up. Follow up again and maybe someone will personally look at it. I think you can do a third follow up before it's over.

Another tip .. if you can, turn off the possibility of overdraft. And then manage two accounts. That way, if your card is ever stolen again, they can't get to much money. I guess it depends on how much money you have. Or just get a credit card with a chip and you probably won't have to screw with this crap ever again.
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Old 05-07-17, 03:13 PM   #23
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

You can also file with cfpb

https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/
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Old 05-07-17, 04:07 PM   #24
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

It seems gasoline stations are the last to fully adopt EMV (chip readers).

Quote:
By October 2017, Scheeler and every other gas-station operator in America must either accept the new chip-card technology called EMV -- named after its backers Europay, Mastercard and Visa -- or pay potentially half a billion dollars in collective "chargebacks" for any such fraud.

Source
Chip cards have more protection than magnetic cards and all fraud charges fall upon the vendor with the new chip card rules.
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Old 05-07-17, 04:39 PM   #25
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Re: Ever had a bank go against you in a debit/credit card transaction dispute?

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What kind of information did BoA ask for to help prove those transactions weren't yours? It's not like those transactions were out of state, they were 15 miles from you. Do you have other transactions, not just from the debit card, but from a credit card or cash receipts, that shows that you could not have been at the locations when the theft occurred?
They only asked super basic stuff. Do I have my card on me? Do I know who did this? Have I given my PIN to anyone? Where do I keep my PIN info (memory, of course)? A couple days later, when I filled out the fraud statement, that was the first time they asked if I had reported it to the police. At that time, I hadn't, again because I thought the bank was taking care of it, and it hadn't been mentioned in the phone call.

There are no time stamps on any of my transactions, so I don't know exactly when they occurred. Regardless, I was at home all night. My wife used HER debit card (different #) once (she picked up dinner for us), and I used my card info to make a purchase on my phone. But that's it. I have a couple photos on my phone that were taken during the gap between my gas station transaction and when the bank called me about the suspicious activity (an 8 hour window), and those photos have time and location stamps on them, but unless these line up with the transactions perfectly, it's not of much use either.

Putting it all together, I can see how the bank would be suspicious of my claim. But that said:
- Why the hell would I do a balance check (which includes a fee!) on a random ATM when I can (and do!) do it on my phone for free?
- Why the hell would I make THREE $200 withdrawals in a row on a random ATM, paying fees every time, instead of a single transaction if I know exactly what my own daily withdrawal limit is?

At this point, I feel like the ONLY thing that can help me is video from the ATM or the store where the ATM is located. And I'm worried that the PD isn't going to go out of their way to get that for me.

By the way... it IS a chip card, but the gas station I used it at is swipe-only. Seems like most ATMs use the chip, too, but not all of them? I've done a bit of reading about the ATM vendor and it appears that their ATMs may not require chips (fucking bullshit, IMO. Every ATM should be chip-only) AND many (or all?) of them don't have video cameras on them.

Fuck.
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