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Old 04-15-15, 11:15 PM   #76
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

Exactly, Troy. They take the price of the base car (in black), no extras , without delivery cost, and then subtract the $7500 tax credit and the hypothetical $10,000 gas savings and give you a magical price that is really meaningless -- in big bold type at the top of the page. Don't know why they do that, it seems a little, if not dishonest, at least deceptive.
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Old 04-15-15, 11:20 PM   #77
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

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Originally Posted by Michael T Hudson View Post
Congrats on the order. I see a bunch of them in Austin. We have a showroom where you can go look but cannot buy or drive. I would be interested to see what the difference in your electric bill will be.
Well it's Vegas so it soars in the Summer anyway. Here the only benefit you're given besides the federal tax credit is with any EV in this state, we get half-price electricity from 10PM to 6 AM, so you set up the car to charge just during those hours.
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Old 04-15-15, 11:25 PM   #78
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

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Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
Here's how they framed it: It's $50k no $55k no $60k. And I think it ended at $60k for the base model. This year has a $57.5k entry level model.

There is a big difference between $45k and $57k. Two different classes. A lot of people around here drive around in $40k+ cars. If the Tesla was truly $45k, I bet it'd put a huge dent in BMW/Mercedes/Audi/Lexus/Etc sales. They would be EVERYWHERE. But when you're talking about $57k, you exclude a lot of people.

At $30k, everyone would buy one and we'd probably have to start worrying about electrical infrastructure.
Totally agree. However, in the future I see Tesla gradually coming out with a model that will compete in the price range. "45D" or something.

And if everyone did buy these Tesla vehicles, your electric company would easily solve the electrical infrastructure.

Raise prices. So, instead of blaming OPEC and calling them the All Evil (which I do as well), it will be your electric company who will be price-fixing and screwing over consumers.
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Old 04-15-15, 11:29 PM   #79
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
Here's how they framed it: It's $50k no $55k no $60k. And I think it ended at $60k for the base model. This year has a $57.5k entry level model.

There is a big difference between $45k and $57k. Two different classes. A lot of people around here drive around in $40k+ cars. If the Tesla was truly $45k, I bet it'd put a huge dent in BMW/Mercedes/Audi/Lexus/Etc sales. They would be EVERYWHERE. But when you're talking about $57k, you exclude a lot of people.

At $30k, everyone would buy one and we'd probably have to start worrying about electrical infrastructure.
Ah, I didn't realize the price was constantly rising. We'll have to see if the same happens with the E Model.
I wouldn't worry about folks lining up in droves to buy one, though. Gas is currently "cheap" and still on the way down, and many people are still too attached to their gas guzzlers. I live in a well-to-do neighbourhood, and it's practically wall-to-wall high-end SUVs.
I think Tesla will remain a fairly niche brand for at least a decade. Look how long it took the Prius to become a fairly common sight on the roads.
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Old 04-15-15, 11:34 PM   #80
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can get the Model S for around that price, but it has a much shorter range. The extra cost is for the batteries that permit a 250-mile range per charge.
There used to be cheaper alternatives with shorter range and very limited tech features that wasn't compatible with Supercharger stations, route planning, autopilot, etc. They have smartly eliminated those choices, thus making every single new Tesla able to do all that now (though you do have to pay $2500 at purchase or $3000 later to enable the autopilot features


Quote:
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Hope you enjoy the new car Decker. Please give us some feedback, particularly on the autopilot package. I know a lot of the really cool stuff isn't implemented yet and is expected in an update later this year but can't recall the details. Do you know if you'll have your car before the update? Having a car get significant functional updates after purchase sounds amazing, but also a real chance of major headaches if it doesn't go smoothly.
I think I'll be getting my car about a month before the update. I can't link directly to the site, but on the Tesla website, they give a nice summary of the autopilot features. Basically once you're on the highway, the car can essentially drive for you. It will adapt to even stop and go traffic and will safely change lanes for you after you signal. It will also park for you. A later update will allow the car to come fetch you when you're parked on private property like in a mall or other large parking lot.
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Old 04-15-15, 11:44 PM   #81
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

They only recently started advertising the "final price" with the $10K in estimated fuel savings. I find it shady as shit and frankly it makes me wonder if there are any potential financial/sales problems that make them feel it is necessary to use such a deceptive marketing practice.

EDIT: Rather than desperation I wonder if perhaps this is just a way to pad the numbers so the 2017 model hits the price estimates the company has previously projected. That $10K makes a huge difference when it comes to hitting $35K (big exclamation point) (tiny asterisk).
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Old 04-16-15, 12:43 AM   #82
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

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I think Tesla will remain a fairly niche brand for at least a decade. Look how long it took the Prius to become a fairly common sight on the roads.
Add to that MBZ, BMW and Audi are already developing their version with almost unlimited funds and decades of experience in R&D makes me think Tesla will be an afterthought. Hopefully they stick around but it will never be the first choice for high end luxury buyers. I think they should start positioning themselves against Lexus, Infinity and even Kia. That's where their real competition lies.
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Old 04-16-15, 04:31 PM   #83
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

BMW already put out an outrageously expensive electric vehicle in the i8. One of my neighbors has one. It's beautiful but lists at $137,500. And not only is it not fully electric, it gets 30 MPH! It's like they totally miss the point of the Tesla's appeal. And that brings me to why I think Tesla will own the market for a long time to come : Range. Without the network of Superchargers, you're tethered to a maximum or about a 200 mile trip (and that's assuming you end up at a hotel or something where you can charge your car overnight). The true genius of Tesla (or one of them anyways) is the network of Superchargers free and readily available exclusively to Tesla owners that makes the entire country traversable (for free) by electric vehicle. All those other car companies are primarily in the business of making gas-powered vehicles and it certainly doesn't make financial sense to pepper the country with hundreds of free charging stations to cater to a small percentage of their products.
There will soon be a market for small, inexpensive EVs for city driving, but as a true substitute for the luxury sedan, I don't see anyone challenging the Tesla any time soon (not until there are inexpensive rapid charging stations in service stations everywhere).
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Old 04-16-15, 04:46 PM   #84
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

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Originally Posted by Decker View Post
BMW already put out an outrageously expensive electric vehicle in the i8. One of my neighbors has one. It's beautiful but lists at $137,500. And not only is it not fully electric, it gets 30 MPH! It's like they totally miss the point of the Tesla's appeal. And that brings me to why I think Tesla will own the market for a long time to come : Range. Without the network of Superchargers, you're tethered to a maximum or about a 200 mile trip (and that's assuming you end up at a hotel or something where you can charge your car overnight). The true genius of Tesla (or one of them anyways) is the network of Superchargers free and readily available exclusively to Tesla owners that makes the entire country traversable (for free) by electric vehicle. All those other car companies are primarily in the business of making gas-powered vehicles and it certainly doesn't make financial sense to pepper the country with hundreds of free charging stations to cater to a small percentage of their products.
There will soon be a market for small, inexpensive EVs for city driving, but as a true substitute for the luxury sedan, I don't see anyone challenging the Tesla any time soon (not until there are inexpensive rapid charging stations in service stations everywhere).
So I was talking to a friend who is in to this stuff and he said they are already experimenting with power stations (as opposed to gas stations). Basically you drive in and over this device that will swap out your old battery for a freshly charged one and you are on your way. Takes about a minute. The your old battery is automatically tested and then charged back up to full for someone else.

If that comes to pass I can easily see it being the future.
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Old 04-16-15, 04:53 PM   #85
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

Are you talking about Teslas? I heard about that (my salesman told me there are places that already do the battery swap), but you have to leave a deposit and come back to pick up your battery on your return trip (or if you're stupid rich, you can pay to have it shipped back to you). Seems like a very impractical solution to me.
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Old 04-16-15, 04:53 PM   #86
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

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And if everyone did buy these Tesla vehicles, your electric company would easily solve the electrical infrastructure.

Raise prices. So, instead of blaming OPEC and calling them the All Evil (which I do as well), it will be your electric company who will be price-fixing and screwing over consumers.
This is what the people currently buying Tesla aren't worrying about because, for them, electricity's a cheap commodity. But, there's a big difference between CA electricity rates (45 cents per kwh) and Texas (8 to 10 cents per kwh)!

So, the "cost" of owning a Tesla is momentously cheaper in TX than CA.

The saving grace of all this will be *when* those Supercharging stations are truly and ubiquitously as available as regular gas stations. If Tesla can manage that level of infrastructure, then they'll sell their cars, even at $75k+ especially in Calif. which has the highest electricity costs in the nation. When I can actually drive across the country for "free" and not have *any* worry of being stranded or having to go hundreds of miles astray to get to a charging station, then I'll gladly purchase a Tesla.
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Old 04-16-15, 05:26 PM   #87
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

^I think, even with high electricity rates like California's, the cost to run an electric car is significantly cheaper than a typical gas-powered car, but don't quote me on that.

Quote:
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BMW already put out an outrageously expensive electric vehicle in the i8. One of my neighbors has one. It's beautiful but lists at $137,500. And not only is it not fully electric, it gets 30 MPH! It's like they totally miss the point of the Tesla's appeal. And that brings me to why I think Tesla will own the market for a long time to come : Range. Without the network of Superchargers, you're tethered to a maximum or about a 200 mile trip (and that's assuming you end up at a hotel or something where you can charge your car overnight). The true genius of Tesla (or one of them anyways) is the network of Superchargers free and readily available exclusively to Tesla owners that makes the entire country traversable (for free) by electric vehicle. All those other car companies are primarily in the business of making gas-powered vehicles and it certainly doesn't make financial sense to pepper the country with hundreds of free charging stations to cater to a small percentage of their products.
There will soon be a market for small, inexpensive EVs for city driving, but as a true substitute for the luxury sedan, I don't see anyone challenging the Tesla any time soon (not until there are inexpensive rapid charging stations in service stations everywhere).
That's exactly right, except that EVs with short ranges for urban commuting have existed for a few years now. They might be sufficient for most city people, but Tesla's advantage, as you mentioned, is the range.
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Old 04-16-15, 09:31 PM   #88
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

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Well, after almost two years of flirting with the idea and trying to talk myself into any other car, last night I bit the bullet and ordered this one for June delivery
Awesome! I am incredibly jealous!
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Old 04-16-15, 10:05 PM   #89
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

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But, there's a big difference between CA electricity rates (45 cents per kwh) and Texas (8 to 10 cents per kwh)!
Wow, do they really pay that much in California? We pay 7.7/kwh off-peak, 11.4 mid-peak, and 14 at peak, and we just got a two-month electricity bill for almost $750. I can't imagine what an electricity bill looks like in Caleefornia!
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Old 04-16-15, 10:42 PM   #90
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

4-tier system (soon to be only two by 2016), with tier one starting at 18 cents and tier 4 at 47 cents. Most people are definitely in tier 4 (= above 120% of 'baseline' which is only ~280 kwhr per month). Owning a Tesla would surely place you in tier 4. As of 1/1/16 Socal Edison is hoping to eliminate tiers 1 and 2, so we'll start at something like 38 cents per kwhr for the cheapest tier.
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Old 04-17-15, 02:57 AM   #91
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

On the battery swapping, they aren't actually doing it yet. Musk demoed it a couple of years ago but Tesla just announced last December that they would be launching the first test station for "invited Model S owners" . Later Tesla said it's a pilot program open only available to a small number of vehicles. I believe a major setback was when they added additional protective plating to the battery. The original process was demoed as being completely automated and taking 90 seconds. The announcement says the new process requires 3 minutes and reports are that there will be workers on site doing some parts manually.

There are reports that the battery swap thing is more of a gimmick to earn Tesla "ZEV credits" in California which it can then sell to other mfgs to offset their fleet sales in the state. It ends up earning Tesla hundreds of millions per year. The battery swap comes in because Tesla gets more than double the credits per vehicle if they qualify as fast (under 15 minutes) refueling vehicles as well. Because of the way the regulations are written to qualify for the full ZEV credits the vehicle not only has to be capable of fast refueling, but the MFG has to show it's actually being done. However, the refueling rules are written so any time ANY Model S is fast refueled it can be applied to ANY other Model S that is capable of fast refueling and that vehicle earns the full ZEV credits. That makes each battery swap that can qualify a Model S worth about $10-20K more in credits to Tesla.


One reason Tesla may not be pushing the process is that the ZEV rules are scheduled to change in 2018 so that fast refueling isn't a factor and instead credits are based on range alone.
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Old 04-17-15, 03:59 PM   #92
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

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4-tier system (soon to be only two by 2016), with tier one starting at 18 cents and tier 4 at 47 cents. Most people are definitely in tier 4 (= above 120% of 'baseline' which is only ~280 kwhr per month). Owning a Tesla would surely place you in tier 4. As of 1/1/16 Socal Edison is hoping to eliminate tiers 1 and 2, so we'll start at something like 38 cents per kwhr for the cheapest tier.
What's the rationale behind such high electricity prices? Deficit reduction? Conservation? Of course it hits poor people the hardest.
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Old 04-17-15, 05:29 PM   #93
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

The rationale, I think, is that Socal Edison and San Diego Gas and Electric have to increase prices because of those who have gone off the grid to Solar or other alternative power sources. They claim that the immense infrastructure established for years needs 'continual maintanance'. So, those who go off the grid are "harming" those who, either because they're poor, or because they don't use enough power to justify Solar, need to depend on the Electric Company. With the recent forced conversion to 'smart meters', that was a massive expense for them, which they touted as a "way for customers to limit their power consumption". What it really was, is a tricky way for them to justify raising rates and actually use less manpower to maintain their infrasture (no more meter-reading men).

So, we're getting royally screwed by the power companies in Calif, especially those of us to try to conserve and are penalized for so doing (by their eliminating cheaper tiers and 'rebalancing' tiers 3 and 4, and further by increasing the minimum cost per month to $10.00, even if no power at all is used.).

So, back on topic, I can't wait to get my Tesla drive for "free" by using Musk's supercharging stations for the expensive power, rather than my own 240 or 480V outlets...
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Old 04-17-15, 05:41 PM   #94
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

I'm only 17 minutes (16 mi) away from our local Supercharger station. I suppose I could be cheap and charge up during my lunch hour during the Summer instead of plugging my car in overnight. As I said though, in NV the rates drop by 50% after 10 PM if you own an EV so I can't imagine it's really worth it on most days.

Are there 480V outlets? Ive never heard of that in a home.
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Old 04-17-15, 06:03 PM   #95
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

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The rationale, I think, is that Socal Edison and San Diego Gas and Electric have to increase prices because of those who have gone off the grid to Solar or other alternative power sources. They claim that the immense infrastructure established for years needs 'continual maintanance'. So, those who go off the grid are "harming" those who, either because they're poor, or because they don't use enough power to justify Solar, need to depend on the Electric Company. With the recent forced conversion to 'smart meters', that was a massive expense for them, which they touted as a "way for customers to limit their power consumption". What it really was, is a tricky way for them to justify raising rates and actually use less manpower to maintain their infrasture (no more meter-reading men).

So, we're getting royally screwed by the power companies in Calif, especially those of us to try to conserve and are penalized for so doing (by their eliminating cheaper tiers and 'rebalancing' tiers 3 and 4, and further by increasing the minimum cost per month to $10.00, even if no power at all is used.).

So, back on topic, I can't wait to get my Tesla drive for "free" by using Musk's supercharging stations for the expensive power, rather than my own 240 or 480V outlets...
Sorry, but the reason for higher rates is not because of "so many" people going off the grid. Barely anyone has actually done that. Certainly not enough to cause rate hikes.
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Old 04-17-15, 07:17 PM   #96
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

Exactly.

In any case, I like the auto-valet thing. That's amazing.

Decker needs to shoot video of the car picking him up!
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Old 04-17-15, 08:47 PM   #97
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

Nice car. I'm waiting for the 30k model. Look for my inevitable thread about getting a 37% interest rate for 84 months.
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Old 04-17-15, 10:11 PM   #98
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

I called my salesman today to ask him a few details. I asked the question here about insurance. He said that rates usually run 25-30% less than other comparably priced luxury cars. I didn't check his numbers but he encouraged me to shop around (saying State Farm charges a really high rate on the Tesla for some reason).
He also said that since the announcement of the 70D they haven't sold a single 85 in the Vegas dealership. That doesn't surprise me since it's AWD, just as fast and $5000 less than the 85. I expect that model to be phased out soon. Also I'm apparently due for some swag with preordering the car that I didn't get because I did an online order. Need to go back and pick that shit up! I want my baseball cap, dammit.
I tried to get a solid delivery date or at least a better window (early or late June), but that's still a few weeks away. I'll update here when I get more info.

And thanks for those nice words and wishes about the car. I will definately post a video of the car picking me up once that is enabled.

In the meantime, I have to clean out the garage in order to get this car to fit in there. As of now, I just give the garage to the Mrs' minivan and park out front. Won't be able to do that with the Model S.
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Old 04-17-15, 10:47 PM   #99
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

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Originally Posted by wmansir View Post
They only recently started advertising the "final price" with the $10K in estimated fuel savings. I find it shady as shit and frankly it makes me wonder if there are any potential financial/sales problems that make them feel it is necessary to use such a deceptive marketing practice.

EDIT: Rather than desperation I wonder if perhaps this is just a way to pad the numbers so the 2017 model hits the price estimates the company has previously projected. That $10K makes a huge difference when it comes to hitting $35K (big exclamation point) (tiny asterisk).
The whole concept seems pretty shady.
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Old 04-18-15, 03:04 PM   #100
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Re: Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model S the highest rating of any car in the mag

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Sorry, but the reason for higher rates is not because of "so many" people going off the grid. Barely anyone has actually done that. Certainly not enough to cause rate hikes.
Exactly! That "going off the grid" excuse is the power companies' placing the blame on someone else, as usual, for their extreme greed in justification of the raising of rates... I never said so many are going off the grid or meant to imply that... It's simply their snake oil...
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