YATT: Couple Busted for Refusing to Pay Tip

[WallyOPD]

Originally Posted by Heat

Tips are based on the amount of the bill. Why should tips be based on some imaginary figure (the pre-coupon amount)?

Using your reasoning, tips should be based on the most expensive item on the menu no matter what you ordered. So if you order a $6 burger, you should still tip as if you had ordered a $30 steak because the waitress did the same amount of work. Or if you order water, you should add the cost of a glass of wine to the bill for purposes of calculating the amount of the tip because the waitress did the same amount of work.

Just keep it simple: 15% to 20% of the final bill, pre-tax, for good service.

Look at a coupon as just a way of paying a portion of your bill (like using a gift card). The tip should always be based on the menu prices of the items you've ordered.

[Deftones]

Originally Posted by Red Dog

The only time I may overtip is in advance - at a bar, casino, etc - to get better service during the course of my visit.

Yep. At a casino especially. If you know you are going to be at a table a while, a nice tip up front ensures a prompt service.

[RoyalTea]

Originally Posted by Heat

Tips are based on the amount of the bill. Why should tips be based on some imaginary figure (the pre-coupon amount)?

Using your reasoning, tips should be based on the most expensive item on the menu no matter what you ordered. So if you order a $6 burger, you should still tip as if you had ordered a $30 steak because the waitress did the same amount of work. Or if you order water, you should add the cost of a glass of wine to the bill for purposes of calculating the amount of the tip because the waitress did the same amount of work.

Just keep it simple: 15% to 20% of the final bill, pre-tax, for good service.

Suppose you're on vacation visiting and old friend. He owns a restaurant. He takes time away from the restaurant while you're there, but he can't take time off every night. one day, you and other friends go out on your own and at night you dine at your friend's restaurant. he's working that night and isn't eating with your group.

he tells you that since you're his guest, your meal is on the house. but he doesn't want his waitstaff to suffer, so he asks that you still pay them a fair tip.

how would you figure out how much to tip the waitstaff?

[CRM114]

Originally Posted by Red Dog

I rarely do. I generally just do 20% all the time (whether good or bad) since it's easy to figure out - out of simple obligation. It's pretty sad, but culture and custom seems to have forced it upon us. I don't even remember when it when it went from 15 to 20....seemed to happen overnight. The same thing will probably happen again - it will go to 25%.

The only time I may overtip is in advance - at a bar, casino, etc - to get better service during the course of my visit.

As for this story, if it was ridiculous for the patrons to not pay the $16, it's even more ridiculous that the owner called the cops over $16.

I agree with this whole post.

[CRM114]

Originally Posted by clckworang

I don't understand your reasoning. You make a point about you earning your money. It sounds to me like this server didn't do the things necessary to actually earn that money, so why should she get paid for it? Because these college students didn't work for their money? That's hypocritical. If the server didn't do the work, she shouldn't earn the tip.

Of groups over 8, the tip is ADDED to the bill. They do this to ensure that classless assholes don't stiff their waiter since he/she is devoting (theoretically) so much time to the table. Personally, I do not see this as negotiable. You want to have a big party, you're on the hook for 18%. Or you can be an ass and cause a scene.

[RoyalTea]

Originally Posted by CRM114

Of groups over 8, the tip is ADDED to the bill. They do this to ensure that classless assholes don't stiff their waiter since he/she is devoting (theoretically) so much time to the table. Personally, I do not see this as negotiable. You want to have a big party, you're on the hook for 18%. Or you can be an ass and cause a scene.

So if something is added to the bill, it's non negotiable? If your toilet breaks and you call a plumber and he comes over and fiddles around with the pipes, but does not fix your toilet, and he hands you a bill, would you still pay it?

[superdeluxe]

Originally Posted by CRM114

. Or you can be an ass and cause a scene.

There will be no scene if the waitstaff serves you like they should.

[cpgator]

Originally Posted by CRM114

Of groups over 8, the tip is ADDED to the bill. They do this to ensure that classless assholes don't stiff their waiter since he/she is devoting (theoretically) so much time to the table. Personally, I do not see this as negotiable. You want to have a big party, you're on the hook for 18%. Or you can be an ass and cause a scene.

But as a lib, you are used to just bending over and talking it, no questions asked.
Kidding aside, you have certainly made some invalid points.

[Heat]

Originally Posted by RoyalTea

Suppose you're on vacation visiting and old friend. He owns a restaurant. He takes time away from the restaurant while you're there, but he can't take time off every night. one day, you and other friends go out on your own and at night you dine at your friend's restaurant. he's working that night and isn't eating with your group.

he tells you that since you're his guest, your meal is on the house. but he doesn't want his waitstaff to suffer, so he asks that you still pay them a fair tip.

how would you figure out how much to tip the waitstaff?

If you really want to know, I treat meals that are comped as pay meals with regard to tipping. Thus if the manager gives a free desert or whatever, I’ll increase the tip appropriately. But say there was a weekday special of "free desert with purchase of a meal" then no, I wouldn’t increase my tip for the desert.

Here’s one back at you: The same situation you mentioned but this time the owner has a waitress put the meal in a "to go" box and you take it home to eat.

[cpgator]

Originally Posted by Heat

Here’s one back at you: The same situation you mentioned but this time the owner has a waitress put the meal in a "to go" box and you take it home to eat.

Is the wife with me, and if not, what does the waitress look like?

[RoyalTea]

Originally Posted by Heat

Here’s one back at you: The same situation you mentioned but this time the owner has a waitress put the meal in a "to go" box and you take it home to eat.

I'd tip the same as I would at any other take out place.

[4KRG]

Another DVDtalk tipping thread

I want to know WHY we are all fooled into thinking the percentage of the tip needs to be increased as time goes on?

The price of the food/drink is constantly rising, so 15% today for the same meal is more dollars than 15% on the same meal was 5 years ago. Theoretically, the increased food prices already account for the wait staffs cost of living increase on the same percentage of tip. Looks like the 20% or you are a cheap ass is allowing them a double raise

I give 15% for average service, 20% for excellent above what is expected service (which I do get sometimes) and somewhere in the 5%-10% for crappy service. I haven't stiffed completely on a tip in years, but I have had what I call ANTI-Service in the past and have stiffed for that (but it is usually not more than a rare once in 5+ year occurrence)

Places that include a high % gratuity on the bill for parties larger than 6 will only ever get that exact % from me no matter how good the service is. I hate when places do this. On receiving bad, service like these people had, I will call the manager over and argue the gratuity down and state specific reasons and then see what they say. If their deal is to comp some food and leave the gratuity alone, I am fine with that so long as I pay what I think is fair for what I received.

You don't spend more time at a table of 8 than you do at two tables of 4. I would argue two tables of 4 probably take more time.

The reason they include the gratuity on large parties is that many times the large parties are unrelated people that each toss in some money to the pot (usually not enough) and try to act like that covered everything they ate inc tip (we have all eaten out with these people, their meal is $9.99 so they toss in a $10 and try to call it even, usually the tip suffers because some cheap ass can't add up what they had) Normally some individual in the crowd is stuck being "banker" for the check and screws the tip as to not be stuck paying for everyone elses' poor math skills

Being arrested for this is insane based on the facts presented.

[WallyOPD]

Originally Posted by Heat

If you really want to know, I treat meals that are comped as pay meals with regard to tipping. Thus if the manager gives a free desert or whatever, I’ll increase the tip appropriately. But say there was a weekday special of "free desert with purchase of a meal" then no, I wouldn’t increase my tip for the desert.

If it's a posted special that everyone gets then that's a different story, that's the standard price.

Originally Posted by Heat

Here’s one back at you: The same situation you mentioned but this time the owner has a waitress put the meal in a "to go" box and you take it home to eat.

I would treat it the same way I would in any other "to go" situation.

[CRM114]

Originally Posted by RoyalTea

So if something is added to the bill, it's non negotiable? If your toilet breaks and you call a plumber and he comes over and fiddles around with the pipes, but does not fix your toilet, and he hands you a bill, would you still pay it?

Not comparable. These people got their food and it was delivered to their table.

[CRM114]

Originally Posted by superdeluxe

There will be no scene if the waitstaff serves you like they should.

Which is completely subjective.

[Red Dog]

Originally Posted by CRM114

Which is completely subjective.

That's right, which is why tipping (which traditionally has been based on the quality of service provided) should be subjective rather than objective (as it is with mandatory minimums and what has become the customary expected 20% regardless of level of quality).

[RoyalTea]

Originally Posted by CRM114

Not comparable. These people got their food and it was delivered to their table.

So a waiter always deserves a 20% surcharge for physically carrying food from the kitchen to the table and nothing else? Refilling a drink or not making a patron grab their own silverware and napkins is not part of their expected service?

[BuddhaWake]

Originally Posted by Bandoman

Wow, some real town vs. gown resentment here.

it happens when some idiot student does something they shouldn't be doing, like raping, dealing drugs or gets murdered doing something they shouldn't be, and then the whole town cop force comes down on the townies especially this area since is all poor latinos and make your life impossible and then it turns out it was another student that did the raping, the drug stuff or someone outside the area comes in a kills a student in the mountain top campus like it happened in 99? if i remember correctly. when that happened you couldn't be a Latino between age 13-50 without getting some sort of looks from cops, questioning or cops coming into people's houses if you were one of the "usual suspects" of south side yet later it was found out that it was someone who wasn't even in the area. I can't remember if it was drug related but there was something off about the whole case. it isn't just the latinos either. it was like that before with the steel workers and the eastern european migrants that lived all over south side. Lehigh has had that "watching over from the ivory tower" attitude and people in that part of the city resent it. Lehigh was pretty good to me but i wasn't a student there and if i would have been I wouldn't have been one of those endowed ones, i would have been the token poor latino towny that role went to my classmate.

[Sdallnct]

Originally Posted by Groucho

People are acting as if this is the only place in the world with an automatic gratuity for parties of eight or more.

I guess the difference is that most places wouldn't bother calling the cops if you refused to pay it.

Automatic does not mean mandatory.

I have twice asked a manager to lower the automatic tip. It was done. I have at least a dozen times asked for the manager and explained the excellent service I received and gave them extra cash to provide the staff on top of what was automatically added.

I treat a tip as feedback, and if I leave significantly more or less than typical, I make sure and explain why.

[Sdallnct]

Originally Posted by CRM114

Not comparable. These people got their food and it was delivered to their table.

Then the restaurant should include the time amount in the cost of each individual item and the restaurant provide the tip. In other words, it is not longer a tip, but a salary.

Far as I know, there is no law that requires restaurant staff to only be paid a small amount by the restaurant.

[BuddhaWake]

Originally Posted by RoyalTea

So a waiter always deserves a 20% surcharge for physically carrying food from the kitchen to the table and nothing else? Refilling a drink or not making a patron grab their own silverware and napkins is not part of their expected service?

yeah, this is part of the service. if you can't even bring utensils and check up on me/us for refills etc then you didn't do your service and the tip should reflect that. I don't stiff but I reduce but if its set like in this case with the added gratuity then a manager needs to be called over and not argue it after the fact. now what I don't understand is, if this people waited this long, why not just go somewhere else that waiting should be a tip letting you know what to expect for the rest of the evening.

something similar to this happened to me and a a couple of friends. went out to eat, waited like 30 minutes past the time we were qouted to get seated. go seated in the most horrible table right by the door with people hitting you with their coats and handbags. then we stayed to take bets as to how long it would be before someone gave us a menu (over an hour until we asked) and how long to get our drinks. then the hostess (who gave menus to everyone else that came in) had the nerve to ask us if we ordered our food yet when we hadn't received menus yet. we called a manager over told him the situation and left. no reason to stay longer after that.

[CRM114]

Originally Posted by RoyalTea

So a waiter always deserves a 20% surcharge for physically carrying food from the kitchen to the table and nothing else? Refilling a drink or not making a patron grab their own silverware and napkins is not part of their expected service?

I never said anything about 20%. I just said the product you purchased at the restaurant was provided and not comparable to your plumber who did not provide a repaired toilet.

[Sdallnct]

Originally Posted by 4KRG

Another DVDtalk tipping thread

I want to know WHY we are all fooled into thinking the percentage of the tip needs to be increased as time goes on?

The price of the food/drink is constantly rising, so 15% today for the same meal is more dollars than 15% on the same meal was 5 years ago. Theoretically, the increased food prices already account for the wait staffs cost of living increase on the same percentage of tip. Looks like the 20% or you are a cheap ass is allowing them a double raise

I give 15% for average service, 20% for excellent above what is expected service (which I do get sometimes) and somewhere in the 5%-10% for crappy service. I haven't stiffed completely on a tip in years, but I have had what I call ANTI-Service in the past and have stiffed for that (but it is usually not more than a rare once in 5+ year occurrence)

Places that include a high % gratuity on the bill for parties larger than 6 will only ever get that exact % from me no matter how good the service is. I hate when places do this. On receiving bad, service like these people had, I will call the manager over and argue the gratuity down and state specific reasons and then see what they say. If their deal is to comp some food and leave the gratuity alone, I am fine with that so long as I pay what I think is fair for what I received.

You don't spend more time at a table of 8 than you do at two tables of 4. I would argue two tables of 4 probably take more time.

The reason they include the gratuity on large parties is that many times the large parties are unrelated people that each toss in some money to the pot (usually not enough) and try to act like that covered everything they ate inc tip (we have all eaten out with these people, their meal is $9.99 so they toss in a $10 and try to call it even, usually the tip suffers because some cheap ass can't add up what they had) Normally some individual in the crowd is stuck being "banker" for the check and screws the tip as to not be stuck paying for everyone elses' poor math skills

Being arrested for this is insane based on the facts presented.

I also don't get why it is a %? If I order a salad and water for $8.00 and someone else at the table gets the steak with baked potato and beer for $30, the staff really didn't do anything different. But one adds more tip than the other. In fact the staff may have worked harder on me by refilling my water several times and getting me extra dressing.

[clckworang]

Originally Posted by CRM114

Of groups over 8, the tip is ADDED to the bill. They do this to ensure that classless assholes don't stiff their waiter since he/she is devoting (theoretically) so much time to the table. Personally, I do not see this as negotiable. You want to have a big party, you're on the hook for 18%. Or you can be an ass and cause a scene.

I'm aware of this. I worked in restaurants for several years and understand the reasoning behind the practice.

That being said, an automatic gratuity isn't a license to not serve your tables. At any of the restaurants I worked at, if the server didn't give adequate service to that table, the automatic gratuity didn't become so automatic -- or something was comped/given away to compensate.

By your reasoning, if you come with a table of 8 or more, it doesn't matter how awful the server is -- or if the server does anything at all -- they are entitled to an automatic tip. That's just not right. I see the automatic gratuity as a contract. If you can't keep my table informed and/or refill our drinks, then you are violating the terms of that contract. If you hired a contractor to fix your house and he messes the work up, are you still going to pay the previously agreed price? I realize the dollar amount is different, but the idea is still the same. Why pay someone for a job that wasn't done or wasn't done correctly?

[CRM114]

I don't cause a scene and embarrass the guests at my table. I just do not do business with that restaurant any longer. I don't understand the need to fight over a few dollars. It's not as if these people never got their food, or cold food. The complaints on the video were that silverware was not there for someone and they couldn't get a drink refill. I wonder if they'd want that drink refilled if it wasn't free? I also wonder about $70 for 8 people. They were obviously not ordering much more than drinks.