Is the N.J. Teen a murderer?

Mrs. Danger · 05-09-08, 03:56 PM

Here's a poll, because I am curious about people's initial reaction to this story.

Quote:

N.J. Teen Charged In Newborn Death
MILLVILLE (AP) ―

Authorities say a 14-year-old girl has been charged with murder for allegedly drowning her newborn in a toilet at the Cumberland County Fairgrounds in Millville over the weekend.

Prosecutor Ron Casella says the girl, identified only as I.S., gave birth to a baby boy in a toilet stall, then placed the infant in the toilet tank.

Authorities believe the Bridgeton teenager acted alone, but say the investigation is ongoing.

Prosecutors now have to determine whether the girl should be tried as a juvenile or adult.

The baby was found Monday morning following a Cinco de Mayo celebration at the fairgrounds over the weekend. An autopsy determined that the baby was born alive and died of drowning.

There will be several options, please read them all before voting.

Mrs. Danger · 05-09-08, 04:01 PM

I'm putting this poll up to test a theory I have about men reacting with less sympathy to this than women.

Kittydreamer · 05-09-08, 04:02 PM

Wow, that's horrible.

CPA-ESQ. · 05-09-08, 04:04 PM

oh my! is this worse than a prom night dumpster baby?

Me thinks so!

"Cinco de Mayo fairground upper decker baby"

scott1598 · 05-09-08, 04:52 PM

how is she not a murderer? i mean what else would you call killing someone?

Raul3 · 05-09-08, 04:54 PM

I voted juvenile.

kvrdave · 05-09-08, 04:56 PM

Tried as a juvenile. And it certainly seems to fit the definition of murder.

kvrdave · 05-09-08, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs. Danger

I'm putting this poll up to test a theory I have about men reacting with less sympathy to this than women.

Sympathy for the girl or the baby?

mcfly · 05-09-08, 04:57 PM

Adult.

GoVegan · 05-09-08, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs. Danger

I'm putting this poll up to test a theory I have about men reacting with less sympathy to this than women.

I'm a male vegan, so I'm just glad it wasn't a defenseless kitten or puppy.

Cygnet74 · 05-09-08, 06:25 PM

as a juvenile. it's murder.

mndtrp · 05-09-08, 06:27 PM

I'm a guy, thinks she should be tried as a juvenile, and is obviously a murderer.

LivingINClip · 05-09-08, 06:36 PM

Juvenile. She is 14 and while her crime is horrendous, I don't think we can lock her away for good - not yet quite yet.

kvrdave · 05-09-08, 06:39 PM

I still say her only crime is timing.

Draven · 05-09-08, 06:58 PM

How on earth am I supposed to sympathize with ANYONE that deliberately kills a newborn baby?

Hand the kid to a cop and run away or something at least. But don't end a child's life because you are too stupid or scared to do anything resembling the right thing.

And I don't know what being a guy has to do with anything. I have two kids of my own and cannot excuse that behavior in any way. She blew her chances by her own actions. And she was DEFINITELY old enough to know better.

TomOpus · 05-09-08, 07:04 PM

Since I can only base my vote on what little facts are present, I voted juvenile.

fumanstan · 05-09-08, 07:09 PM

Guy. Adult.

Septemberbaby · 05-09-08, 07:39 PM

I'm one of the two who voted, I'm a girl and this is just sad.

I would like to know what SHE THOUGHT her other options were.
I would like to know who got her pregnant.

Did she think she would be disowned if she told her parents that she was pregnant?
Did she try to tell her parents that she was raped by a family member or friend and they wouldn't listen to her so she thought she had no other option?
Did her parents EVER tell her that no matter what, they would support her no matter what she came home and told them?
Or was she told over and over that she would be disowned if she ever got pregnant.
Or did they live in total denial and think that their daughter would NEVER do such a thing.
There's a lot of unanswered questions.

And if it turns out that she just didn't feel like dealing with any of it and drowned her baby because she's a selfish bitch, then so be it.
but until I hear her side, I'm saying that is a very sad situation.

If anything is learned from this, I hope parents who hear about this will sit down and tell their daughters and SONS that they're free to tell them anything and while they're not perfect and their immediate reaction may not be a supportive one.. when the dust settles, they will be there for them and there's nothing they can't get through together.

Bandoman · 05-09-08, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cygnet74

as a juvenile. it's murder.

Yep.

tasha99 · 05-09-08, 09:46 PM

It's murder, but I think she should be tried as a juvenile. I also think it's very sad.

For those who think she should be tried as an adult, why? In what way is she NOT a juvenile, no matter how heinous or sad you find her crime? I would want to know the story behind her pregnancy (was she raped? abused? neglected?) and what her home life was (was she afraid to tell anyone, so ignorant she didn't know she was pregnant? etc.)

riotinmyskull · 05-09-08, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tasha99

It's murder, but I think she should be tried as a juvenile. I also think it's very sad.

For those who think she should be tried as an adult, why? In what way is she NOT a juvenile, no matter how heinous or sad you find her crime? I would want to know the story behind her pregnancy (was she raped? abused? neglected?) and what her home life was (was she afraid to tell anyone, so ignorant she didn't know she was pregnant? etc.)

because she was preggers.

Jadzia · 05-09-08, 10:13 PM

I can't even imagine how scary that would be for that young girl to go into labor, all alone. I truly think in cases like this it is a desperate situation that makes these girls go so deep in denial about their situation. The whole pregnancy thing is just too much for them to process so they go into this state.

It is easy for people on the outside to say she should have just done this or that, but I think to these girls this happens to, actually making a decision about their pregnancy would make them admit that they are pregnant. The thought of being pregnant at that age is so scary and overwhelming to them and they lack the maturity to think anything other than "If I don't do anything, it will just all go away." But it doesn't go away, and they end up giving birth all alone in a bathroom with no one even there to help. By that time, they are so in denial they just become so divorced from reality and so detached from the situation they don't see it as a baby. I think it is very sad. I think people forget that these young girls who do this are kids themselves. Going through all that alone would push many adult people over the edge, much less an adolescent.

This situation has happened so many times in young girls, I am not sure if the psychiatrists have studied this or named it, but I think it definitely is a psychosis.

DVD Polizei · 05-09-08, 10:18 PM

I agree with Jadzia. It isn't like this girl had the kid for 5 years and then took a metal pipe to its head. It was a newborn. She just gave birth. Sounds like she freaked out. Where's the premeditation? If this isn't a case for NOT having it, I don't know what is. It is certainly NOT murder.

This case is much different than many other cases we see where HATE and RAGE are a part of the crime. Such as kids killing each other over a video game system, or a boy killing another younger toddler by bludgeoning it to death.

kvrdave · 05-09-08, 11:50 PM

I don't think most of us are saying don't take anything into consideration at sentencing, but she still took a little human life and intentionally killed it.

What is the difference between what this girl did and what the mom who went through her house and drowned all her kids because of post mortem depression? Apparently some of you agree with me that it is just timing. Or that she wasn't very attached to it yet.

DeputyDave · 05-10-08, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPA-ESQ.

oh my! is this worse than a prom night dumpster baby?

Me thinks so!

"Cinco de Mayo fairground upper decker baby"

Perhaps the most tasteless Family Guy scene ever:

View Poll Results: What do you think of this case?
I'm a guy, and I think she should be tried as an adult.	47	43.52%
I'm a girl, and I think she should be tried as an adult.	7	6.48%
I'm a guy, and I think she should be tried as a juvenile.	34	31.48%
I'm a girl, and I think she should be tried as a juvenile.	2	1.85%
I'm a guy, and I think this is just sad.	14	12.96%
I'm a girl, and I think this is just sad.	4	3.70%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

05-09-08, 04:52 PM	#5
scott1598 DVD Talk Legend Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: I want to go to there! Posts: 19,344	how is she not a murderer? i mean what else would you call killing someone? __________________ "stranger than fiction" Movie collection "almost famous" SteelBook™ collection "Even though I am no better than a beast, don't I have the right to live?"

05-09-08, 04:56 PM	#7
kvrdave DVD Talk God Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 79,125	Tried as a juvenile. And it certainly seems to fit the definition of murder. __________________ Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. - C.S. Lewis

05-09-08, 04:57 PM	#9
mcfly DVD Talk Hall of Fame Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: California Posts: 8,877	Adult. __________________ "I think, Lisa, that you've been taken in by an obvious forgery. Unfortunately, historical research is plagued by this sort of hoax -- the so-called confession. It's just as fake as the Howard Hughes will, the Hitler Diaries, or the Emancipation Retraction." *"You won't be seeing any prison movies where you're going - prison!"*

05-09-08, 06:36 PM	#13
LivingINClip DVD Talk Platinum Edition Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,033	Juvenile. She is 14 and while her crime is horrendous, I don't think we can lock her away for good - not yet quite yet. __________________ http://twitter.com/Livinginclip

05-09-08, 04:01 PM	#2
Mrs. Danger Suspended Join Date: May 2005 Location: With Nick Danger Posts: 15,192	I'm putting this poll up to test a theory I have about men reacting with less sympathy to this than women.

05-09-08, 04:04 PM	#4
CPA-ESQ. DVD Talk Platinum Edition Join Date: Jul 1999 Posts: 3,993	oh my! is this worse than a prom night dumpster baby? Me thinks so! "Cinco de Mayo fairground upper decker baby"

05-09-08, 04:54 PM	#6
Raul3 DVD Talk Limited Edition Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Picture a cup in the middle of the sea Posts: 7,214	I voted juvenile.

05-09-08, 06:25 PM	#11
Cygnet74 Needs to contact an admin about multiple accounts Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 2,830	as a juvenile. it's murder.

05-09-08, 06:27 PM	#12
mndtrp DVD Talk Legend Join Date: May 2004 Location: a mile high, give or take a few feet Posts: 10,799	I'm a guy, thinks she should be tried as a juvenile, and is obviously a murderer.

05-09-08, 06:39 PM	#14
kvrdave DVD Talk God Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 79,125	I still say her only crime is timing. __________________ Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. - C.S. Lewis

05-09-08, 06:58 PM	#15
Draven DVD Talk Legend Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Rosemount, MN Posts: 15,194	How on earth am I supposed to sympathize with ANYONE that deliberately kills a newborn baby? Hand the kid to a cop and run away or something at least. But don't end a child's life because you are too stupid or scared to do anything resembling the right thing. And I don't know what being a guy has to do with anything. I have two kids of my own and cannot excuse that behavior in any way. She blew her chances by her own actions. And she was DEFINITELY old enough to know better. __________________ XBL GamerTag: Draven Sinclair PSN: DravenSinclair Game Center: Draven-X

05-09-08, 07:04 PM	#16
TomOpus DVD Talk Legend Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 23,289	Since I can only base my vote on what little facts are present, I voted juvenile. __________________ "Pear Pimples for Hairy Fishnuts!" My So-Called DVD Life (Profiler),A Fistful of Discs (DVDAf)

05-09-08, 07:09 PM	#17
fumanstan DVD Talk Hero Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Irvine, CA Posts: 33,303	Guy. Adult. __________________ 3x Sheep Champion VG Round 1b \| VG Round 7 \| NFL

05-09-08, 07:39 PM	#18
Septemberbaby DVD Talk Gold Edition Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2,495	I'm one of the two who voted, I'm a girl and this is just sad. I would like to know what SHE THOUGHT her other options were. I would like to know who got her pregnant. Did she think she would be disowned if she told her parents that she was pregnant? Did she try to tell her parents that she was raped by a family member or friend and they wouldn't listen to her so she thought she had no other option? Did her parents EVER tell her that no matter what, they would support her no matter what she came home and told them? Or was she told over and over that she would be disowned if she ever got pregnant. Or did they live in total denial and think that their daughter would NEVER do such a thing. There's a lot of unanswered questions. And if it turns out that she just didn't feel like dealing with any of it and drowned her baby because she's a selfish bitch, then so be it. but until I hear her side, I'm saying that is a very sad situation. If anything is learned from this, I hope parents who hear about this will sit down and tell their daughters and SONS that they're free to tell them anything and while they're not perfect and their immediate reaction may not be a supportive one.. when the dust settles, they will be there for them and there's nothing they can't get through together.

05-09-08, 09:46 PM	#20
tasha99 DVD Talk Ultimate Edition Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: the North Posts: 4,722	It's murder, but I think she should be tried as a juvenile. I also think it's very sad. For those who think she should be tried as an adult, why? In what way is she NOT a juvenile, no matter how heinous or sad you find her crime? I would want to know the story behind her pregnancy (was she raped? abused? neglected?) and what her home life was (was she afraid to tell anyone, so ignorant she didn't know she was pregnant? etc.)

05-09-08, 10:13 PM	#22
Jadzia Moderator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: Michigan Posts: 15,054	I can't even imagine how scary that would be for that young girl to go into labor, all alone. I truly think in cases like this it is a desperate situation that makes these girls go so deep in denial about their situation. The whole pregnancy thing is just too much for them to process so they go into this state. It is easy for people on the outside to say she should have just done this or that, but I think to these girls this happens to, actually making a decision about their pregnancy would make them admit that they are pregnant. The thought of being pregnant at that age is so scary and overwhelming to them and they lack the maturity to think anything other than "If I don't do anything, it will just all go away." But it doesn't go away, and they end up giving birth all alone in a bathroom with no one even there to help. By that time, they are so in denial they just become so divorced from reality and so detached from the situation they don't see it as a baby. I think it is very sad. I think people forget that these young girls who do this are kids themselves. Going through all that alone would push many adult people over the edge, much less an adolescent. This situation has happened so many times in young girls, I am not sure if the psychiatrists have studied this or named it, but I think it definitely is a psychosis.

05-09-08, 10:18 PM	#23
DVD Polizei DVD Talk Hero Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Overpricedville, OR Posts: 36,727	I agree with Jadzia. It isn't like this girl had the kid for 5 years and then took a metal pipe to its head. It was a newborn. She just gave birth. Sounds like she freaked out. Where's the premeditation? If this isn't a case for NOT having it, I don't know what is. It is certainly NOT murder. This case is much different than many other cases we see where HATE and RAGE are a part of the crime. Such as kids killing each other over a video game system, or a boy killing another younger toddler by bludgeoning it to death. __________________ Blu-ray Titles: ~380 \| HD DVD Titles: ~323 "I don't sell airplane parts. I've never sold airplane parts."

05-09-08, 11:50 PM	#24
kvrdave DVD Talk God Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 79,125	I don't think most of us are saying don't take anything into consideration at sentencing, but she still took a little human life and intentionally killed it. What is the difference between what this girl did and what the mom who went through her house and drowned all her kids because of post mortem depression? Apparently some of you agree with me that it is just timing. Or that she wasn't very attached to it yet. __________________ Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. - C.S. Lewis