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View Poll Results: What do you think of this case?
I'm a guy, and I think she should be tried as an adult. 47 43.52%
I'm a girl, and I think she should be tried as an adult. 7 6.48%
I'm a guy, and I think she should be tried as a juvenile. 34 31.48%
I'm a girl, and I think she should be tried as a juvenile. 2 1.85%
I'm a guy, and I think this is just sad. 14 12.96%
I'm a girl, and I think this is just sad. 4 3.70%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-10-08, 12:05 AM   #26
wewantflair
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
I agree with Jadzia. It isn't like this girl had the kid for 5 years and then took a metal pipe to its head. It was a newborn. She just gave birth. Sounds like she freaked out. Where's the premeditation? If this isn't a case for NOT having it, I don't know what is. It is certainly NOT murder.

This case is much different than many other cases we see where HATE and RAGE are a part of the crime. Such as kids killing each other over a video game system, or a boy killing another younger toddler by bludgeoning it to death.
Wholeheartedly agree. From the (albeit limited) information we have, there doesn't seem to be any premeditation.
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Old 05-10-08, 12:09 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. Danger
I'm putting this poll up to test a theory I have about men reacting with less sympathy to this than women.
If that's the case then I'll need pics of the accused so I can know how much sympathy I'll need to put out.

Cute= lostsa sympathy
Not so cute = Moderate sympathy
Ugly = no sympathy whatsoever
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Old 05-10-08, 12:12 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantrobo
If that's the case then I'll need pics of the accused so I can know how much sympathy I'll need to put out.

Cute= lostsa sympathy
Not so cute = Moderate sympathy
Ugly = no sympathy whatsoever
Add:

Minority = Execute her
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Old 05-10-08, 12:14 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeputyDave
Add:

Minority = Execute her
Ahhh, thank you for reminding me.
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Old 05-10-08, 12:31 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wewantflair
there doesn't seem to be any premeditation.
ah yes the misconception that the premeditation has to be this long protracted planning stage that then ends with the death of someone.. Had she left it on the floor of the stall or on some door step and it died, ok she thought someone would find the baby and they did not, whoops..

Putting inside a toilet tank is a whole other issue.. At best one could say she was under distress from having the kid, so not in a right state of mind but then again it's not like that kid just "showed" up out of the blue. She had many months to plan what to do when the day came, many, many, many months.

She knew she was knocked up and it takes all of a few seconds at a cpu or one phone call to find out that NJ has a Safe Haven infant law. As in show up, hand over the new born baby, walk away.

So she murdered that baby, maybe not 1st degree but that up to the court to decide.. juvenile court of course being she only 14..
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Old 05-10-08, 01:30 AM   #31
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So do some people believe murder only occurs if it is premeditated?

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Old 05-10-08, 02:36 AM   #32
wewantflair
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kvrdave
So do some people believe murder only occurs if it is premeditated?

Seeing as how that is the definition of murder, yes.

Of course, the real question at hand has nothing to do with murder, but rather a criminal homicide of any kind. As DeadLamb rightly points out, if you believe the girl's actions were criminal, then it is certainly no leap to believe that her actions were premeditated in the short term. It is my belief, however, that barring any additional information, it is very difficult to reach the conclusion that a 14 year old girl acted criminally in this situation.

We do not know the circumstances of her pregnancy. Was she raped? Under the law, it is almost certain she was. Did she have any prenatal care or counseling? Was she hiding the pregnancy from her parents and teachers? Was she enrolled in and attending school?

How anyone can condemn this girl without knowing the answers to those questions is puzzling and troubling.
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Old 05-10-08, 04:39 AM   #33
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I have zero doubt it is criminal. She did kill someone. I however, think this comes down to a matter of locking her away for good and giving up on her. Or figuring that this is still a child, who acted like a child and trying to maybe get her through this and figure out where and what went wrong.

That's what it comes down to, in my opinion.
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Old 05-10-08, 04:44 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wewantflair
How anyone can condemn this girl without knowing the answers to those questions is puzzling and troubling.
How can some of you project yourselves in her mind without knowing anything about her except her age and initials?

She was alone in a stinky, New Jersey fairground bathroom - scared, deatched, divorced from reality. A 14 year old girl freaking out because her baby, most likely a product of rape, decides to start his or her own life while her friends go around on the carousel eating cotton candy. She saw the baby moving as it came out - maybe she even placed it in the tank because it started to cry. It couldn't possibly be premeditated - she obviously didn't take the time to think about what she was going to do. I mean, months do fly by.

The bottom line is that none of us have any damn idea what she was thinking during pregnancy, during birth, and especially when she opened that lid with both hands, picked up her breathing baby, watched her baby sink into the rusty water of the toilet tank, closed the lid and walked away. I'm a bit reluctant to call her a cold hearted murder but I'm just as, if not more, reluctant to call her a poor, sweet child that was forced to make a very hard decision all alone and, OOPS!, she made the wrong choice!

Her parents may have failed her, her school may have failed her, her friends may have failed her, her boyfriend may have failed her, her bus driver may have raped her....but it was only her hands and her decision that caused her baby's death.

Let's put this in very simple terms:
BABY = ALIVE
BABY + GIRL = TORTURED BABY DEATH
GIRL = ?
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Old 05-10-08, 05:21 AM   #35
Giantrobo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beesonosu
How can some of you project yourselves in her mind without knowing anything about her except her age and initials?

She was alone in a stinky, New Jersey fairground bathroom - scared, deatched, divorced from reality. A 14 year old girl freaking out because her baby, most likely a product of rape, decides to start his or her own life while her friends go around on the carousel eating cotton candy. She saw the baby moving as it came out - maybe she even placed it in the tank because it started to cry. It couldn't possibly be premeditated - she obviously didn't take the time to think about what she was going to do. I mean, months do fly by.

The bottom line is that none of us have any damn idea what she was thinking during pregnancy, during birth, and especially when she opened that lid with both hands, picked up her breathing baby, watched her baby sink into the rusty water of the toilet tank, closed the lid and walked away. I'm a bit reluctant to call her a cold hearted murder but I'm just as, if not more, reluctant to call her a poor, sweet child that was forced to make a very hard decision all alone and, OOPS!, she made the wrong choice!

Her parents may have failed her, her school may have failed her, her friends may have failed her, her boyfriend may have failed her, her bus driver may have raped her....but it was only her hands and her decision that caused her baby's death.

Let's put this in very simple terms:
BABY = ALIVE
BABY + GIRL = TORTURED BABY DEATH
GIRL = ?
Wow.. that was deep. You should write for TV crime shows. I'm depressed now.
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Old 05-10-08, 05:56 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wewantflair
Seeing as how that is the definition of murder, yes.
Wrong.
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Old 05-10-08, 08:12 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wewantflair
Seeing as how that is the definition of murder, yes.

No. It is generally one element of 1st degree murder.



There are insufficient facts here for me to render an opinion. I would need to know more.
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Old 05-10-08, 08:22 AM   #38
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To the people that voted it is "just sad", do you think that there should be no trial?

It is heartbreakingly sad, and I feel for her, but a crime (murder) was committed. We can't ignore that no matter how tragic the circumstances.
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Old 05-10-08, 09:06 AM   #39
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Ehh, somebody else mentioned this...so I'll delete what I posted.

The age of the person and their mental state will be the determining factors of this crime. But overall, when we use the term murder, both outside and inside the legal realms, premeditation is at the forefront of the word. At least when I use it, and many others I suspect.
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Old 05-10-08, 09:31 AM   #40
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Second-degree murder is not premeditated.

And somebody get rid of that damn "Frontier" ad on the forum!
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Old 05-10-08, 09:35 AM   #41
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I never said 2nd Degree Murder had premeditation.

Having a LACK of premeditation means it was still a factor. Hence, the 2nd Degree realm.

Premeditation is a vital part of the crime of homicide. The lack of it, is just as necessary for the determination of that crime. The mental state is what we're talking about here. Mens rea.
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Old 05-10-08, 10:10 AM   #42
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Where's the twikoff option?
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Old 05-10-08, 10:50 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
Mens rea.
Is it sad that I recognize that term from Legally Blonde.

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Old 05-10-08, 11:15 AM   #44
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Murder is an adult crime. She should be tried as an adult. Or a-dolt.
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Old 05-10-08, 11:19 AM   #45
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Omg, there's like a whole 13 women on this board (who voted at least)
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Old 05-10-08, 11:22 AM   #46
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Can you blame them?
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Old 05-10-08, 11:34 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glassdragon
Omg, there's like a whole 13 women on this board (who voted at least)
There are no women on this board. Just at least 13 guys claiming to be women.
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Old 05-10-08, 12:41 PM   #48
wewantflair
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cow
Second-degree murder is not premeditated.

And somebody get rid of that damn "Frontier" ad on the forum!
Just for the record, in many states (including NY, but I can't find the specifics for NJ), second degree murder is premeditated.

That being said, I think I (and perhaps others) are colloquially conflating "premeditated" with "intentional." As they relate to my original point, either is applicable.

With the facts in question, it is not possible to ascertain whether her actions were intentional.
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Old 05-10-08, 02:02 PM   #49
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She's still too young to be tried as an adult IMO.
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